47
   

Two weeks into Occupy Wall Street protests, movement is at a crossroads

 
 
hingehead
 
  2  
Reply Wed 19 Oct, 2011 03:32 pm
Thought John Stewart's intro last night (Aus time) was pretty funny/pointed. Showing Cantor inciting tea baggers to hit the streets and take back their country in 2009 - and now saying how concerned he was that OWSers had hit the streets and were trying to take back their country.

So if civil war breaks out can youth & idealism win against old people with guns?

Some odd parallels between both sides (and the Arab spring, and the late 60s protest movements) but I'm still pondering what that tells us about the state of the world.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Wed 19 Oct, 2011 04:02 pm
@hingehead,
hingehead wrote:

Thought John Stewart's intro last night (Aus time) was pretty funny/pointed. Showing Cantor inciting tea baggers to hit the streets and take back their country in 2009 - and now saying how concerned he was that OWSers had hit the streets and were trying to take back their country.

So if civil war breaks out can youth & idealism win against old people with guns?

Some odd parallels between both sides (and the Arab spring, and the late 60s protest movements) but I'm still pondering what that tells us about the state of the world.


If war breaks out it will be between sage seniors and cannibal hippies with forks

http://thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/eat-rich.jpg
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Oct, 2011 04:44 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
If war breaks out it will be between sage seniors and cannibal hippies with forks


Mmmmm. Sage. With prosciutto. Saltimbocca seniors.
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 03:43 pm
Interestingly this item appears in Business Insider


Here Are Four Charts That Explain What The Protesters Are Angry About...

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/here-are-the-four-charts-that-explain-what-the-protesters-are-angry-about-2011-10


Last week, we published a chart-essay that illustrates the extreme inequality that has developed in the US economy over the past 30 years.

The charts explain what the Wall Street protesters are angry about. They also explain why the protesters' message is resonating with the country at large.

Here are the four key points:

1. Unemployment is at the highest level since the Great Depression (with the exception of a brief blip in the early 1980s).

http://static6.businessinsider.com/image/4e9461fdecad04166c00002d-620-375/unemployment-rate.png
Image: St. Louis Fed

2. At the same time, corporate profits are at an all-time high, both in absolute dollars and as a share of the economy.
http://static5.businessinsider.com/image/4e94623c69bedd814c000005/corporate-profit-after-tax.png
Image: St. Louis Fed

http://static8.businessinsider.com/image/4e94624e69bedd653a000044/corporate-profit-as-a-percent-of-gdp.png
Image: St. Louis Fed

3. Wages as a percent of the economy are at an all-time low. In other words, corporate profits are at an all-time high, in part, because corporations are paying less of their revenue to employees than they ever have. There are lots of reasons for this, many of which are not the fault of the corporations. (It's a global economy now, and 2-3 billion new low-cost employees in China, India, et al, have recently entered the global workforce. This is putting pressure on wages the world over.)

http://static7.businessinsider.com/image/4e9461ae6bb3f7186300005a/wages-as-percent-of-gdp.png
Image: St. Louis Fed

4. Income and wealth inequality in the US economy is near an all-time high: The owners of the country's assets (capital) are winning, everyone else (labor) is losing.

Three charts illustrate this:

The top earners are capturing a higher share of the national income than they have anytime since the 1920s:

http://static8.businessinsider.com/image/4bbcb8787f8b9ab21b580c00/wealth-and-inequality.gif

CEO pay and corporate profits have skyrocketed in the past 20 years, "production worker" pay has risen 4%.

http://static7.businessinsider.com/image/4bbcaeb47f8b9a812b5a0100/wealth-and-inequality.gif


After adjusting for inflation, average earnings haven't increased in 50 years.

http://static5.businessinsider.com/image/4bbcb53d7f8b9a2e1beb0c00/wealth-and-inequality.gif

It's worth noting that the US has been in a similar situation before: At the end of the "Roaring '20s," just before the start of the Great Depression. (See some of the charts above).

It took the country 15-20 years to pull out of that slump and fix the imbalances. But by the mid-1950s, employment, corporate profits, wages, and inequality had all returned to more normal levels. And the country enjoyed a couple of decades of relatively well-balanced prosperity. But now, everything's out of whack again.

Importantly, the inequality that has developed in the economy over the past couple of decades is not just a moral issue. It's a practical one. It is, as sociologists might say, "de-stabilizing." It leads directly to the sort of social unrest that we're seeing right now.

georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 03:58 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

I find this hard to believe, as you've been saying the '4 times as expensive' line for years, even though the price of solar is dropping like a stone - down over 50% in that time period. Many analysts have predicted that within a few years it will be the cheapest of ALL forms of energy production, with or without subsidies.
Please provide us with a specific reference to just one of these "many analysts" who have predficted that solar energy "will be the cheapest of ALL forms of energy production within a few years". You are making stuff up again.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

I would also add that solar panels never melted down and wrecked anyone's city - and spare me the lies about that not being possible here in America, it most certainly is. You should factor the damage risk into your pricing when declaring Nuclear to be so cheap. You also persistently fail to price in the environmental and health damage caused by the rampant burning of coal.


No city in this country has been "wrecked" by the meltdown of a nuclear power plant. We had one such meltdown at Three Mile Island. NO private property was affected and no impact on public health has emerged even after more than 32 years have elapsed.

Twenty Thousand Japanese were killed in a violent earthquake and related tusnami last year that also destroyed four reactors in a nuclear power station on the coast. Whole towns were wiped out and several passenger trains destroyed, two apparently washed out to sea - all with many casualties. No one was killed in the nuclear powerplant failures.
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 04:19 pm
I saw Occupy Wilmington today.
reasoning logic
 
  2  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 05:35 pm
New video of people being arrested for closing their bank accounts. Seems like false arrest to me what do you think?

reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 06:11 pm
A group of Egyptians protesters sending a support message from Tahrir sq. to Occupy Wall st.




Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 06:33 pm
@reasoning logic,
They must not have been in on the real thing in Cairo.

I can understand OWSers making the fatuous comparison, but not any Egyptian kid that actually put his life on the line.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 06:37 pm
@engineer,
Which Wilmington?

The one in NC is a real hotbed of neo-Marxists
reasoning logic
 
  2  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 06:42 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
but not any Egyptian kid that actually put his life on the line


I would not expect you to understand that part!
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 06:48 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

I find this hard to believe, as you've been saying the '4 times as expensive' line for years, even though the price of solar is dropping like a stone - down over 50% in that time period. Many analysts have predicted that within a few years it will be the cheapest of ALL forms of energy production, with or without subsidies.
Please provide us with a specific reference to just one of these "many analysts" who have predficted that solar energy "will be the cheapest of ALL forms of energy production within a few years". You are making stuff up again.


How many times are you going to walk into the same ******* trap? I look things up before I post them when I respond to you, George:

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/blog/business/2011/05/solar-as-the-cheapest-form-of-energy.html

http://www.grist.org/solar-power/2011-06-09-solar-getting-cheaper-fast

http://www.grist.org/solar-power/2011-10-11-solar-pv-rapidly-becoming-cheapest-option-generate-electricity

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/13/us-china-solar-idUSTRE77C0AR20110813

So, yeah. People are predicting this will happen. Maybe it's because they can read a graph of solar prices and extrapolate:

http://www.grist.org/phpThumb/phpThumb.php?src=http://www.grist.org/i/assets/lacey-solarsteadingfallingprices.jpg&w=630

Quote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:

I would also add that solar panels never melted down and wrecked anyone's city - and spare me the lies about that not being possible here in America, it most certainly is. You should factor the damage risk into your pricing when declaring Nuclear to be so cheap. You also persistently fail to price in the environmental and health damage caused by the rampant burning of coal.

No city in this country has been "wrecked" by the meltdown of a nuclear power plant. We had one such meltdown at Three Mile Island. NO private property was affected and no impact on public health has emerged even after more than 32 years have elapsed.


So what? It easily could happen and you know it. The idea that because something HASN'T happened, it WON'T happen, is ridiculous.

Quote:
Twenty Thousand Japanese were killed in a violent earthquake and related tusnami last year that also destroyed four reactors in a nuclear power station on the coast. Whole towns were wiped out and several passenger trains destroyed, two apparently washed out to sea - all with many casualties. No one was killed in the nuclear powerplant failures.


Sure, but there's a pretty big area of Japan where I bet YOU won't be going on vacation anytime soon. When I say 'wreck someone's city,' we're not talking about immediate fatalities - we're talking about the loss of the usability of the land itself. You apparently don't give a **** that the people who lived near Fukushima have had their lives destroyed. Many of us, however, do. That is why I think you will be seeing very little new nuclear production in the US for some time to come: we simply don't trust the assurances that nothing could go wrong.

I would also remind you that coal production and burning leads to health problems for thousands of people on a yearly basis, and coal mining is one of the more dangerous professions you could be involved in these days. You fail to price any of these secondary environmental costs into your evaluations of the price of coal plants.

I don't really expect you to be intellectually honest about any of this, as you have spent years making the same tired arguments against solar panels and solar technology, and admitting that they are wrong is difficult for people when they've reached that point of investment. It becomes an emotional issue instead of a rational one. Next time, before you respond to me, do us both a favor and do a thirty second google search before you accuse me of making things up.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 06:49 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Which Wilmington?

The one in NC is a real hotbed of neo-Marxists

That's us, Southern neo-Marxists headquarters. I have no idea who organizes these things.
reasoning logic
 
  2  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 06:50 pm
Someone seems to have found an answer to the problem!

They need to do this the next time a tsunami comes threw!

0 Replies
 
Builder
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 06:55 pm
@reasoning logic,
That bank video is amazing RL.

In Australia, you can join a bank or credit union, and sign a form giving them the details of your old accounts with other bank/s, and have them transfer the money to your new account.

Is it not like that in the US of A?
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 06:55 pm
@reasoning logic,
Unlike you, right? Laughing
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 06:56 pm
@Builder,
Builder wrote:

That bank video is amazing RL.

In Australia, you can join a bank or credit union, and sign a form giving them the details of your old accounts with other bank/s, and have them transfer the money to your new account.

Is it not like that in the US of A?


It most certainly is not.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 07:00 pm
@engineer,
The Comparative Tribal Bartering profs at the University.

Certainly not all the rich Duke and UNC grads who live there.
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 07:02 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Sociology may answer your question if you are interested! Idea
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2011 07:06 pm
0 Replies
 
 

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