The horror of Sept. 11th, 2001

@georgeob1,

Quote:

Are you suggesting that this judicial procedure was influenced by the evil American government?

Given the historical record, the question you really oughta be asking is this,

Are you suggesting that this judicial procedure was not influenced by the evil American government?

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@izzythepush,

The frequency and density of your name-calling and epithets rises as the content of your arguments vanishes.

You are very quick to fault the United States for actions that are very common throughout history, particularly in the history of powerful countries confronted with often conflicting challenges. You are also notably unwilling to even consider the history of your own country in analogous circumstances.

In short you are interested in throwing rhetorical stones, but unable or unwilling to consider them seriously or the meaning they may have.

In the matter at hand a Scottish court convicted the person in question, but did not pardon him of the crime for which he was convicted - notwithstanding the "evidence" you assert exists. However the court did grant him a humanitarian release on the basis of what is now known to be a contrived and false claim that he was near death from an easily diagnosed disease. What conclusion would you draw from these facts?

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@georgeob1,

You're very quick to blame me for the actions of my country whilst ignoring the part you personally played in your own country's crimes.

Al-Megrahi is close to death, as can be evidenced by recent footage. It is not at all contrived or false. The fact that he's survived so long is probably down to the emotional benefits of being with his family, plus the phenomenal amounts of money the Gadaffi regime spent on his medical care.

Guess what? You're very good about telling us how our opinions don't matter any more. In this your opinion doesn't matter. He's staying put, the NTC have made that clear, and there's nothing you can do about it.

Instead of huffing and puffing, why not actually watch the documentary, let's try putting the real culprits on trial.

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

Quote:

particularly in the history of powerful countries confronted with often conflicting challenges

Stop with the lies, Gob. You do great honor to yourself. These" conflicting challenges" have been created out of whole cloth by a greedy country that has designs on all the wealth of the world.

Quote:

However the court did grant him a humanitarian release on the basis of what is now known to be a contrived and false claim that he was near death from an easily diagnosed disease. What conclusion would you draw from these facts?

The only possible conclusion one could draw - that you are now, as stunningly ignorant of anything remotely resembling facts.

You do as you have always done, twist facts and events to serve the sole purpose you've had since I first encountered your drivel - making excuses for the USA and the recurrent, deep evil that it has been engaged in since its inception.

1 Reply

@JTT,

JTT wrote:

Quote:
particularly in the history of powerful countries confronted with often conflicting challenges

Stop with the lies, Gob. You do great honor to yourself. These" conflicting challenges" have been created out of whole cloth by a greedy country that has designs on all the wealth of the world.

Quote:
However the court did grant him a humanitarian release on the basis of what is now known to be a contrived and false claim that he was near death from an easily diagnosed disease. What conclusion would you draw from these facts?

The only possible conclusion one could draw - that you are now, as stunningly ignorant of anything remotely resembling facts.

You do as you have always done, twist facts and events to serve the sole purpose you've had since I first encountered your drivel - making excuses for the USA and the recurrent, deep evil that it has been engaged in since its inception.

Just making sure Bob doesn't miss this. Or this

Quote:

You really don't have the foggiest notion just what a hypocrite you are, do you, Gob? This crap from you, what was it, a volunteer three tour war criminal in Vietnam?

BTW, one big difference between Malaysia and Vietnam was that we succeeded in Malaysia, but you got your arses kicked out of Vietnam.

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@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:

Poor Izzy. He puts it out liberally, but reacts with sputtering indignation when he gets just a bit of his own medicine.

Got H2OMan doing your scriptwriting?

You're giving H2OMan way to much credit there Iz. He can't produce words with more than 2 syllables.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

You're very quick to blame me for the actions of my country whilst ignoring the part you personally played in your own country's crimes.

No, I am instead trying to put your hyperbole in some historical context. You just refuse to see it or to deal with the obvious conclusions.

You don't know (and likely couldn't accurately imagine) what I have done in my country's service.

izzythepush wrote:

Al-Megrahi is close to death, as can be evidenced by recent footage. It is not at all contrived or false. The fact that he's survived so long is probably down to the emotional benefits of being with his family, plus the phenomenal amounts of money the Gadaffi regime spent on his medical care.

Sounds rather contrived and self-serving to me. If the Scottish judicial authorities truly believed the man might have been innocent and wrongfully convicted they could, and indeed should, have pardoned him. They did not do that. There is strong circumstantial evidence (some from the statements of Ghadaffi's son who brokered the deal) indicating that there was indeed a payoff involved. You have not addressed that.

izzythepush wrote:

Guess what? You're very good about telling us how our opinions don't matter any more. In this your opinion doesn't matter. He's staying put, the NTC have made that clear, and there's nothing you can do about it.

But I haven't suggested that your opinions don't matter. Instead, I have read them carefully and responded in a substantive manner, seeking to better understand the basis for them.

izzythepush wrote:

Instead of huffing and puffing, why not actually watch the documentary, let's try putting the real culprits on trial.

I believe you are projecting: it is you who is doing the huffing & puffing, name calling and obsfucation here, not me. I'm willing to believe there may be some evidence suggesting Megrahi's innocence, but am understandably unable to reconcile it with the actions taken and not taken by the Scottish court; the statements of Ghadaffi's son who brokered the deal; and the actions of the then British Foreign Minister involving the case.

I don't think that this matter rises far above the ordinary venality and compromises that governments make. However, I do object to your implicit assertion that the United States is unusually culpable in this area.

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@georgeob1,

Quote:

You don't know (and likely couldn't accurately imagine) what I have done in my country's service

"my country's service", what a crock of ****!

You took part in a huge illegal invasion solely to attempt to ensure the continued colonialism, hence theft of another country's wealth, a country that only wanted freedom from foreign invaders.

As Mark Twain so accurately noted, you were nothing but a hired assassin.

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@georgeob1,

Quote:

I don't think that this matter rises far above the ordinary venality and compromises that governments make. However, I do object to your implicit assertion that the United States is unusually culpable in this area.

I have never made that assertion, the problems that I have are with the Bush administration, you're the one who made it about America.

Let's not forget this little spat started with you barging in on an exchange between Aiden and myself, which I believe was very civilised. You're the one who made it about Al Megrahi, and I cannot get at all bothered about what shady shenanigans may or may not have taken place, because I truly believe he is an innocent man.

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@Questioner,

Questioner wrote:

izzythepush wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:

Poor Izzy. He puts it out liberally, but reacts with sputtering indignation when he gets just a bit of his own medicine.

Got H2OMan doing your scriptwriting?

You're giving H2OMan way to much credit there Iz. He can't produce words with more than 2 syllables.

You're right, and I'm sorry. Mr. Soggy could never come up with the phrase 'sputtering indignation.' I would have gone for spluttering, but sputtering works just as well.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

I've sputtered when I wasn't spluttering a good few times.

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@spendius,

Or I might have been spluttering when I wasn't sputtered. I'm a bit hazy about it now.

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@spendius,

Haven't we all.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

JTT said:

Quote:

GWB told America and the world that Saddam was involved, that Saddam had WMDs. He also led everyone to believe that the Taliban was involved. And the vast majority of Americans believed it because they are all of the mind of impressionable 5th graders.

To which I answered: Yes, and I can't and won't try to defend it and said something about it being an ongoing travesty and tragedy - which I do believe it is.

And then Finn asked this:

Quote:

When and where did GWB tell America that Saddam was involved in 9/11 aidan?

I'm sure JTT can provide you with the proof if you don't already have it.

But when I said 'Yes' I was referring to what he said about the non-existent weapons of mass destruction and the fact that, as hingehead stated, it did seem as if the Bush administration at the time was searching frantically for a link and disseminated information to Americans and around the world that seemed to support that there was a link.
It was only later that we found out the weapons of mass destruction and the link to the Taliban and Saddam Hussein didn't really exist.

You know I don't put ALL the blame for this travesty and tragedy on Bush though. Maybe it's just me thinking Bush was a regular guy pushed into not only his role as President of the United States by handlers and manipulators who needed someone malleable in that role to achieve their agendas, but I really do believe he was in a state of shock and awe and misled about alot of the facts by those people as thoroughly as a lot of American citizens were.

But I do disagree with JTT's description as the vast majority of Americans as being as 'impressionable as fifth graders'.

There were a hell of alot of Americans who protested this war all over the country. Millions.

You know and to not to fine a point on it - Saddam Hussein didn't really do himself or his people any favors either - did he? He wasn't sitting over there being all innocent either.

Alot of evil **** played into this whole thing - on all sides.

I'm not excusing the Bush administration or Americans or America but I also can't hold them responsible for anything other than what they did.
So yeah - I can't excuse or defend the lying administration.
And I can't forget all the innocent people killed by WHOEVER WHEREVER in any of this.
I hate the whole damn thing.

3 Replies

@aidan,

aidan wrote:

But I do disagree with JTT's description as the vast majority of Americans as being as 'impressionable as fifth graders'.

There were a hell of alot of Americans who protested this war all over the country. Millions.

The main scandal in the run up to the Iraq invasion was the role of the American Media. Those Americans who protested were ignored, and most people were given the impression there was virtually no dissent. The New York Times has since apologised for its lack of journalistic integrity at this time.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

The NYT would have been ratings chasing at the time and also with its apology. The votes in Congress and the House of Commons settled the matter. And also the UN vote on 1441.

Who expects journalistic integrity?

1 Reply

@spendius,

You are such an old cynic.

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@izzythepush,

Not at all. You need to read Bernard Shaw izzy. I don't expect journalistic integrity from anywhere in Media. Its denizens blew themselves up on that score a long while ago. Observation of facts is not cynicism.

1 Reply

@spendius,

spendius wrote:

Observation of facts is not cynicism.

Although the interpretation often is.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

I'm not saying everything in Media is lies. I trust the racing results and stock prices. But the general impression it is trying to give, the superiority of the megalopolitan mind-set, is false imo. Okay--I'm a provincial hick and thus subjective.

You need to up your reading challenges. What else is there to read for but to be challenged? I don't want reassurance or entertainment. It's laughs I'm interested in and phoney, pompous bastards are always funny.

1 Reply

The horror of Sept. 11th, 2001

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