The horror of Sept. 11th, 2001

@CalamityJane,

she prolly has one of those english phone box thingies, Jane.

you take everything so literally...

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@CalamityJane,

No that was a typo, sorry. I flew to Europe in Oct. 2001.

1 Reply

@trying2learn,

Good think Eagle Eyes was there to call you on it. How can we trust anything you write now?

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Trust me or not, that is your option. I can provide proof if you like that I actually flew to Europe in Oct. 2001 Smile

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@trying2learn,

I hope your use of the smiley face indicates you realize I was jesting.

Anyone and everyone knew it was a typo.

I trust you completely

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@Finn dAbuzz,

No, I did not know you were jesting. Thanks for the compliment though because I do my best to be honest.

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@JTT,

Okay JTT- what I mean is that I read a lot of statements that illuminate the fact that there seems to be less sympathy for America and Americans in situations such as this than there would be if something like this happened in another country.
And I don't understand why or how people have to politicize someone else's loss.

But then, you know, now that I think about it, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there's just a general lack of sympathy or empathy these days.

I remember a thread around the time of the Haittian earthquake and reading that certain members of this forum didn't feel moved or inclined to provide aid to those people.
I also remember the thread about famine relief in the Sudan and reading that most of the respondents felt no need to respond to that. Someone even said that those children were so damaged by malnutrition anyway that they were something like 'shadow people' and would never be able to function in life and would just be a drag on society so in other words - **** em.
Seriously I remember thinking, 'Oh - so why don't we just do the merciful thing right now and shoot these shadow children in the head to put them out of their misery instead of watching them slowly starve to death on the side of the road?' Is that what we should do?

There are more people in the world now dying of obesity than starvation and we can't get it together to feed these children...why?
Lack of empathy or sympathy among HUMANS - we can't separate it into nationalities. We as HUMANS on this planet are watching children starve and suffer while there's so much more food than we know what to do with that some of us are stuffing it down our gullets until it kills us!

Yeah - and then I talk about my dad's death and I get a snide, sarcastic remark.
I'm a paragon? Of what or why? Because I can sympathize and empathize and realize that other people have feelings just as I do?
Yikes - that's pretty scary - if that's the metric for achieving the heights of 'paragon-hood' these days- or maybe that's just on a2k.
But it just goes to show...

And in terms of what has gone on in Nicaragua and Cambodia, while that's not the matter under discussion here, when it is I have to say I've never heard anyone say, 'Why don't those people just get the hell over it? What was the big deal? Why do they have to keep talking about it?'

But you're right, America and Americans can seem to be very self-involved and as if they believe their piece of the planet is the hub or center of the universe and what happens there is very important to them (us).
What I'm asking is, 'Is that so different from the reaction you'd get from anyone else in any other country when a tragedy strikes close to home?'

I'll tell you what I still think about ten years later...all of those first responders who gave their lives that day. I still tear up when I think about that. Yeah - and if I'd been in NY on Sept.11th, I'd have been standing there honoring them.
But that doesn't mean I don't think about anyone else around the rest of the world. You can actually do both.
Oh - sorry - am I acting like a paragon again?
Whatever.

1 Reply

@trying2learn,

Quote:

I flew to Europe in Oct. 2011 and this is opposite to what I was told by the Germans, French, Swiss and Austrians. What countries are you speaking of?

I'm mostly responding to what I've read here - that there seems to be a caveat attached to any sympathy rendered - something along the line of, 'Yeah, it's bad they died but....your government blah-blah-blah....'

And in England, my son came home from school and said that his teacher told him and the rest of the class that George Bush set up the whole thing. This was a few years later. I mean I was flabbergasted. And my son, the only American in the class- BELIEVED it as FACT - along with the rest of the class because they were all impressionable 10th graders.
And here's this teacher, with absolutely no hard proof, presenting this theory as FACT!!!
When I asked around, I was told that was the commonly held belief in a lot of the world. They'd rather demonize the American government than believe that al qaeda - who took responsibility for the act- could have done it.

But then a lot of my British friends, when I asked them about it, explained to me that there is an element of sour grapes around the rest of the world when it comes to America. My friend Anna - a retired English teacher- told me that a lot of people look at America as the land of milk and honey and the pinnacle of achievement and so have this feeling of 'sour grapes'.
I don't know why - I'd rather live here myself - that's why I do even though I could live in America. But I have to say that I think she may be right because everyone, almost to a man and woman here in England, says to me, 'Why do you want to live here when you could live in America?!' as if I'm making a choice they themselves would never make.
And yeah - an awful lot of people from other places DO seem to want to live in America, so maybe there is an element of truth to Anna's theory.

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@aidan,

aidan wrote:

I don't know why - I'd rather live here myself - that's why I do even though I could live in America. But I have to say that I think she may be right because everyone, almost to a man and woman here in England, says to me, 'Why do you want to live here when you could live in America?!' as if I'm making a choice they themselves would never make.

I don't know who you've been talking to, but I don't know anyone who would rather live in the USA. Maybe shows like Beverley Hill 90210 have given people unrealistic ideas about what life in America is like.

After 9/11 there was an incredible feeling of sympathy towards America. There may have been a bit of irritation over the fact that Noraid was able to operate with impunity in America, compared to the post 9/11 blanket condemnation of terrorism, but it was minor.

Your son's teacher's attitude is probably down to the things that followed, like extraordinary rendition, Guantanamo Bay, the use of torture, and frustration over our own government's supine approach to America regarding Iraq.

Despite all that I would still say, ten years after the event, the over-riding feeling is still one of sympathy for the victims and their families.

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@aidan,

Quote:

Oh - sorry - am I acting like a paragon again?

Just for the record, It wasn't me who suggested this. It was Mame, and Mame, as is often the case, didn't explain herself.

There are others, numerous and counting, that she could have accurately hurled this epithet at, but ... .

1 Reply

@aidan,

Quote:

And in England, my son came home from school and said that his teacher told him and the rest of the class that George Bush set up the whole thing. This was a few years later. I mean I was flabbergasted. And my son, the only American in the class- BELIEVED it as FACT - along with the rest of the class because they were all impressionable 10th graders.

That is sad, Aidan.

But consider the harm that was done by what this teacher did.

Then,

GWB told America and the world that Saddam was involved, that Saddam had WMDs. He also led everyone to believe that the Taliban was involved. And the vast majority of Americans believed it because they are all of the mind of impressionable 5th graders.

Now, consider the harm that was done to Iraq and Afghanistan.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

Quote:

I don't know who you've been talking to, but I don't know anyone who would rather live in the USA.

I think it's mainly because of the weather. A lot of the people I talk to think the sun is always shining in America - and truth be told - on the east coast, at least in the parts where I've lived, we do have many more sunshiny days than you guys (and I) get over here.
It probably also has to do with the fact that I spend most of my time with poor British people. Honestly I can't say where I'd rather be poor - probably in America- as even though British poor people get more benefits than Americans do, overall it's cheaper to live in America.
Honestly - I don't know how a working class British person makes ends meet. It's tough in America - to be sure - but not as tough as it would be here.

But I like to live over here because I enjoy walking alone and I feel freer and much safer as a woman doing that over here than I do over there.
I also like the larger feeling of community that's more of the rule over here. I've never felt as free to do things alone over there as I have over here, and I feel more cared for as a part of a community as opposed to being just one more individual who is expected to fend for herself.
It seems better in terms of my everyday life to live here and visit there.

Quote:

Maybe shows like Beverley Hill 90210 have given people unrealistic ideas about what life in America is like.

Yeah - shows like Beverley Hills 90210 have given AMERICAN people unrealistic ideas about what life in America should be like.

I don't think Americans are evil people - but compared to the rest of the world, I think we've been spoiled and as a consequence have become greedy.
But I don't think that's an inherently American trait - I think it's been learned and I think that any citizen of the world put in the same situation would not necessarily be so much more inherently honorable and unselfish that they wouldn't take advantage of the gifts being born a middle-class American bestows in terms of lifestyle.
Maybe a little of it will be unlearned by some now (in the current economic climate over there) and things will change somewhat.

Quote:

Your son's teacher's attitude is probably down to the things that followed, like extraordinary rendition, Guantanamo Bay, the use of torture, and frustration over our own government's supine approach to America regarding Iraq.

I have no idea what his attitude was down to. I felt like I must have been reading totally different news reports than he had. Honestly, I felt like I'd missed something really important in the aftermath.
As I told my son at the time, George Bush would have had to be just an evil person to do something like that. I mean, I didn't like him, didn't vote for him, was very unhappy with his policies, etc., etc., but I couldn't attribute that sort of evilness to him without proof or just cause. And once I started asking around, I was shocked to hear that alot of people believed that of him.
I still don't - as much as I hate what has happened in the aftermath- I don't think he was capable of engineering 9/11 or that he would want to for any reason under the sun.

Quote:

Despite all that I would still say, ten years after the event, the over-riding feeling is still one of sympathy for the victims and their families.

Yes, overall, I find British people to be very kind, empathetic and sympathetic.

1 Reply

@JTT,

Quote:

Just for the record, It wasn't me who suggested this. It was Mame, and Mame, as is often the case, didn't explain herself.

There are others, numerous and counting, that she could have accurately hurled this epithet at, but ... .

I didn't mean to suggest it was you. Actually, she illustrated my point brilliantly. Mame doesn't like me, never has- so even when I'm mentioning the death of my father - I don't deserve sympathy over sarcasm and cynicism.
No surprises there.

Seem like that's how people often view the sadnesses that happen to Americans in America.
It's hard to feel sincerely sympathetic toward people you don't like, innit?

But I'll live - same old same old and all that.

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@JTT,

Quote:

GWB told America and the world that Saddam was involved, that Saddam had WMDs. He also led everyone to believe that the Taliban was involved. And the vast majority of Americans believed it because they are all of the mind of impressionable 5th graders.

Now, consider the harm that was done to Iraq and Afghanistan.

Yes , and I can't and won't try to defend that. In my mind there is no defense. It's an ongoing travesty and tragedy.

1 Reply

@aidan,

When and where did GWB tell America that Saddam was involved in 9/11 aidan?

I'm sure JTT can provide you with the proof if you don't already have it.

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@aidan,

Quote:

I have no idea what his attitude was down to. I felt like I must have been reading totally different news reports than he had. Honestly, I felt like I'd missed something really important in the aftermath.

There's plenty of people who believe 9/11 was a massive conspiracy. Some of them post on A2K. I still don't think it's right that your son's teacher told him it was fact. Facts are undeniable, and regarding this there are a lot of denials going round.

I'm pleased you're liking it over here, but you are in one of my most favourite spots.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

You are really a chickenshit of gigantic proportion, Finn.

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@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

I don't know who you've been talking to, but I don't know anyone who would rather live in the USA. Maybe shows like Beverley Hill 90210 have given people unrealistic ideas about what life in America is like.

After 9/11 there was an incredible feeling of sympathy towards America. There may have been a bit of irritation over the fact that Noraid was able to operate with impunity in America, compared to the post 9/11 blanket condemnation of terrorism, but it was minor.

Your son's teacher's attitude is probably down to the things that followed, like extraordinary rendition, Guantanamo Bay, the use of torture, and frustration over our own government's supine approach to America regarding IraqDespite all that I would still say, ten years after the event, the over-riding feeling is still one of sympathy for the victims and their families.

How very kind of you. We are indeed fortunate that, in view of the noted torture, rendition, Guantanamo and the supine quality of British leadership, all of the elementary school teachers in the UK didn't indoctrinate their pupils in the belief that the atacks of 9/11 were a conscious conspiracy of the U. S. government.

Interestingly I have never heard of a case of an American teacher suggesting to his/her pupils that the UK government (or Jack Straw at least) knowingly exchanged the Libyan killer of hundreds of Americans on PANAM 103 for a lucrative contract with the ill-famed Ghadaffi (that said, Saddam was far worse). Perhaps we lack the exquisite sensitivity of British citizens.

Irish Northern Aid was quite popular here for a long time, as was the IRA in an earlier period. That should be no to you surprise given the makeup of our immigrant population and the history of American support for Irish nationalism going back to 1914.

The "overwhelming" European sympathy of September 2011 lasted just a few weeks. Schadenfreude is a powerful thing, but it is self-serving in the extreme to paint it as something else.

1 Reply

@Finn dAbuzz,

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

When and where did GWB tell America that Saddam was involved in 9/11 aidan...

I didn't hear President Bush blame Saddam. What I heard was it was a deliberate attack by terrorist.

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@trying2learn,

trying2learn wrote:

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
When and where did GWB tell America that Saddam was involved in 9/11 aidan...
I didn't hear President Bush blame Saddam. What I heard was it was a deliberate attack by terrorist.

Neither did I, but based on aidan's reply to JTT she must think she did. This is why I've asked her to provide some evidence to support her belief.

That a fairly large number of Americans seem to have actually believed Saddam was, in part, responsible for 9/11, is not, of course, proof that GWB told them he was.

That GWB told the American people that Saddam was developing and stockpiling WMDs is not telling them that he was responsible for 9/11.

People like JTT long ago made these leaps and they want everyone else to join them, or stand revealed as liars.

1 Reply

The horror of Sept. 11th, 2001

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