33
   

The horror of Sept. 11th, 2001

 
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Sat 17 Sep, 2011 12:53 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
This occurred in conditions that didn't occur in the towers on 9-11,


And the tests were of undamaged trusses, with fire proofing, less than half the length of WTC trusses.

The trusses worked as designed when they had their fireproofing which isn't surprising. That indicates that those trusses lost their fireproofing to some extent when a large plane hit the towers. You really need to read the details JTT. Fireproofing is installed to protect steel for a very real reason. The WTC was built with 1/2" fireproofing. NIST tested with 1/2" and 3/4" fireproofing.

www.fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/build05/PDF/b05042.pdf
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Sep, 2011 01:18 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

You're quite right, I was being a bit flippant, 'strong professional women' would probably have been a more apt phrase, but I do feel some empathy towards MsO. George seems to want to have a go at her purely because of her gender, nationality and profession. When I first encountered him he attacked me because of my nationality, making me personally responsible for all the horrors of the British Empire. That would be one thing, but he made it personal, and he constantly bangs the drum for American Imperialism.


Not really. You were banging on Israel, as I recall, while bragging about a recent London boycott of a performance by Israeli performers and proclaiming your great pride in being British as a result of the actions of protestors disrupting the performance.

I merely reminded you of the very deep involvement of the British Empire in both the creation of the Zionist state and the deception of both the Arab nationalists and the Jews over the fate of the Palestinian territory. Since these are precisely the initiating actions for the continuing dispute, I found your forgetfulness quite amazing.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Sat 17 Sep, 2011 01:28 pm
@georgeob1,
Your memory doesn't go as far back as mine. I didn't have that much of a problem with that.

It was months before that, on another thread about Israel, where you opened conversation by calling me contemptuous. You then would not talk about Israel/Palestine, but instead opted for, 'Why the English were all complete bastards, and why the Americans were all saints who could do no wrong.'

At least on the current thread you are sticking to the topic, but you still can't avoid making the odd snide comment. Every time I think of you I see this guy.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Sep, 2011 01:42 pm
@parados,
Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster: Final Report of the National Construction Safety Team on the Collapses of the World Trade Center Towers (NIST NCSTAR 1):

[PDF link]

Here is the NIST study's Summary of Probably Collapse Sequence, on WTC 1 and 2:

Quote:
8.3.1 Summary of Probable Collapse Sequences

WTC 1 was struck by a hijacked aircraft at 8:46:30 am. and began to collapse at 10:28:22 a.m. WTC 2 was struck by a hijacked aircraft at 9:02:59 am. and began to collapse at 9:58:59 am. The specific factors in the collapse sequences relevant to both towers (the sequences vary in detail for WTC 1 and WTC 2) are:

● Each aircraft severed exterior columns, damaged interior core columns and knocked off insulation from steel as the planes penetrated the buildings. The weight carried by the severed columns was distributed to other columns.
● Subsequently, fires began to grow and spread. They were initiated by the aircraft’s jet fuel but were fed for the most part by the building contents and the air supply resulting from breached walls and fire-induced window breakage.
● These fires, in combination with the dislodged insulation were responsible for a chain of events in which die building core weakened and began losing its ability to carry loads.
● The floors weakened and sagged from the fires, pulling inward on the exterior columns.
● Floor sagging and exposure to high temperatures caused the exterior columns to bow inward and buckle—a process that spread across the faces of die buildings.
● Collapse then ensued.

Seven major factors led to the collapse of WTC 1 and WTC 2:

● Structural damage from the aircraft impact:
● Large amount of jet fuel sprayed into the building interior, that ignited widespread fires over several floors;
● Dislodging of SFRM from structural members due to the aircraft impact. that enabled rapid heating of the unprotected structural steel:
● Open plan of the impact floors and the breaking of the partition walls by the impact debris that resulted in increased ventlation:
● Weakened core columns that increased the load on the perimeter walls;
● Sagging of the floors, that led to pull-in forces on the perimeter columns: and
. Bowed perimeter columns that had a reduced capacity to carry loads.


[PDF link to NIST's WTC 7 study]
trying2learn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Sep, 2011 01:48 pm
When I started this thread, it was meant to respect the families and friends who lost loved ones that day. I did read some of your comments and it turned out to calling each other names and just disrespect towards each other and the families.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 17 Sep, 2011 02:05 pm
Quote:


The Critics of 9/11 Truth: Do They Have A Case?

By Paul Craig Roberts

September 13, 2011 "Information Clearing House" -- The short answer to the question in the title is no.

The 9/11 truth critics have nothing but ad hominem arguments.

Let’s examine the case against the truthers presented by Ted Rall, Ann Barnhardt, and Alexander Cockburn.

But first let’s define who the truthers are.

The Internet has made it possible for anyone to have a web site and to rant and speculate to their heart’s content. There are a large number of 9/11 conspiracy theorists.
Many on both sides of the issue are equally ignorant. Neither side has any shame about demonstrating ignorance.

Both sides of the issue have conspiracy theories. 9/11 was a conspiracy whether a person believes that it was an inside job or that a handful of Arabs outwitted the entire intelligence apparatus of the Western world and the operational response of NORAD and the US Air Force.

For one side to call the other conspiracy theorists is the pot calling the kettle black.

The question turns not on name-calling but on evidence.

The 9/11 Truth movement was not created by bloggers ranting on their web sites. It was created by professional architects and engineers some of whom are known for having designed steel high rise buildings. It was created by distinguished scientists, such as University of Copenhagen nano-Chemist Niels Harrit who has 60 scientific papers to his credit and physicist Steven Jones. It was created by US Air Force pilots and commercial airline pilots who are expert at flying airplanes. It was created by firefighters who were in the twin towers and who personally heard and experienced numerous explosions including explosions in the sub-basements. It was created by members of 9/11 families who desire to know how such an improbable event as 9/11 could possibly occur.

The professionals and the scientists are speaking from the basis of years of experience and expert knowledge. Moreover, the scientists are speaking from the basis of careful research into the evidence that exists. When an international research team of scientists spends 18 months studying the components in the dust from the towers and the fused pieces of concrete and steel, they know what they are doing. When they announce that they have definite evidence of incendiaries and explosives, you can bet your life that that have the evidence.

When a physicist proves that Building 7 (the stories not obscured by other buildings) fell at free fall speed and NIST has to acknowledge that he is correct, you can bet your life that the physicist is correct.

When fire department captains and clean-up teams report molten steel--and their testimony is backed up with photographs--in the debris of the ruins weeks and months after the buildings’ destruction, you can bet your life the molten steel was there. When the same authorities report pumping fire suppressants and huge quantities of water with no effect on the molten steel, you can bet your life that the temperature long after the buildings’ destruction remained extremely high, far higher than any building fire can reach.

When the architects, engineers, and scientists speak, they offer no theory of who is responsible for 9/11. They state that the known evidence supports neither the NIST reports nor the 9/11 Commission Report. They say that the explanation that the government has provided is demonstrably wrong and that an investigation is required if we are to discover the truth about the event.

It is not a conspiracy theory to examine the evidence and to state that the evidence does not support the explanation that has been given.

That is the position of the 9/11 Truth movement.

What is the position of the movement’s critics? Ted Rall says: “Everything I’ve read and watched on Truther sites is easily dismissed by anyone with a basic knowledge of physics and architecture. (I spent three years in engineering school.) http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article29113.htm

Wow! What powerful credentials. Has Rall ever designed a high rise steel building? Could Rall engage in a debate with a professor of nano-chemistry? Could he refute Newton’s laws in a debate with university physicists? Does Rall know anything about maneuvering airplanes? Does he have an explanation why 100 firefighters, janitors, and police report hearing and experiencing explosions that they did not hear or experience?

Clearly, Ted Rall has no qualifications whatsoever to make any judgment about the judgments of experts whose knowledge exceeds his meager understanding by a large amount.

Ann Barnhardt writes: “I gotta tell you, I’ve just about had it with these 9/11 truthers. If there is one phenomenon in our sick, sick culture that sums up how far gone and utterly damaged we are as a people, it is 9/11 trutherism. It pretty much covers everything: self-loathing, antisemitism, zero knowledge of rudimentary physics and a general inability to think logically.” She goes down hill from here. http://barnhardt.biz/

Amazing, isn’t she? Physics professors have “zero knowledge of rudimentary physics.”
Internationally recognized logicians have “a general inability to think logically.” People trained in the scientific method who use it to seek truth are “self-loathing.” If you doubt the government’s account you are antisemitic. Barnhardt then provides her readers with a lesson in physics, structural architecture and engineering, and the behavior of steel under heat and stress that is the most absolute nonsense imaginable.

Obviously, Barnhardt knows nothing whatsoever about what she is talking about, but overflowing with hubris she dismisses real scientists and professionals with ad hominem
arguments. She adds to her luster with a video of herself tearing out pages of the Koran, which she has marked with slices of bacon, and burning the pages.

Now we come to Alex Cockburn. He is certainly not stupid. I know him. He is pleasant company. He provides interesting intellectual conversation. I like him. Yet, he also arrogantly dismisses highly qualified experts who provide evidence contrary to the official government story of 9/11.

Alex avoids evidence presented by credentialed experts and relies on parody. He writes that the conspiracists claim that the twin towers “pancaked because Dick Cheney’s agents--scores of them--methodically planted demolition charges.” http://www.counterpunch.org/2011/09/02/the-911-conspiracists-vindicated-after-all-these-years/

Little doubt but there are bloggers somewhere in the vast Internet world who say this. But this is not what the professionals are saying who have provided evidence that the official account is not correct. The experts are simply saying that the evidence does not support the official explanation. More recently, an international team of scientists has reported finding unequivocal evidence of incendiaries and explosives. They have not said anything about who planted them. Indeed, they have said that other scientists should test their conclusions by repeating the research. After calling experts “conspiracy kooks,” Alex then damns them for not putting forward “a scenario of the alleged conspiracy.”

Moreover, not a single one of the experts believes the towers “pancaked.” This was an early explanation that, I believe, was tentatively put forward by NIST, but it had to be abandoned because of the speed with which the buildings came down and due to other problems.

Unlike Rall and Barnhardt, Alex does refer to evidence, but it is second or third-hand hearsay evidence that is nonsensical on its face. For example, Alex writes that Chuck Spinney “tells me that ‘there ARE pictures taken of the 757 plane hitting Pentagon--they were taken by the surveillance cameras at Pentagon’s heliport, which was right next to impact point. I have seen them both--stills and moving pictures. I just missed seeing it personally, but the driver of the van I just got out of in South Parking saw it so closely that he could see the terrified faces of passengers in windows.’”

If there were pictures or videos of an airliner hitting the Pentagon, they would have been released years ago. They would have been supplied to the 9/11 Commission. Why would the government refuse for 10 years to release pictures that prove its case? The FBI confiscated all film from all surveillance cameras. No one has seen them, much less a Pentagon critic such as Spinney.

I have to say that the van driver must have better eyes than an eagle if he could see expressions on passenger faces through those small airliner portholes in a plane traveling around 500 mph. Try it sometimes. Sit on your front steps and try to discern the expressions of automobile passengers through much larger and clearer windows traveling down your street in a vehicle moving 30 mph. Then kick the speed up 16.7 times to 500 mph and report if you see anything but a blur.

Alex’s other evidence that 9/11 truthers are kooks is a letter that Herman Soifer, who claims to be a retired structural engineer, wrote to him summarizing “the collapse of Buildings 1 and 2 succinctly.” This is what Soifer, who “had followed the plans and engineering of the Towers during construction” wrote to Alex: “The towers were basically tubes, essentially hollow.” This canard was disposed of years ago. If Alex had merely googled the plans of the buildings, he would have discovered that there were no thin-walled hollow tubes, but a very large number of massively thick steel beams.

Alex’s willingness to dismiss as kooks numerous acknowledged experts on the basis of a claim that a van driver saw terrified faces of passengers moving at 500 mph and a totally erroneous description in a letter from a person who knew nothing whatsoever about the structural integrity of the buildings means that he is a much braver person than I.

Before I call architects kooks whose careers were spent building steel high rises, I would want to know a lot more about the subject than I do. Before I poke fun at nano-chemists and physicists, I would want to at least be able to read their papers and find the scientific flaws in their arguments.

Yet, none of the people who ridicule 9/11 skeptics are capable of this. How, for example, can Rall, Barnhardt, or Cockburn pass judgment on a nano-chemist with 40 years of experience and 60 scientific publications to his credit?

They cannot, but nevertheless do. They don’t hesitate to pass judgment on issues about which they have no knowledge or understanding. This is an interesting psychological phenomenon worthy of study and analysis.

Another interesting phenomenon is the strong emotional reactions that many have to 9/11, an event about which they have little information. Even the lead members of the 9/11 Commission itself have said that information was withheld from them and the commission was set up to fail. People who rush to the defense of NIST do not even know what they are defending as NIST refuses to release the details of the simulation upon which NIST bases its conclusion.

There is no 9/11 debate. On the one hand there are credentialed experts who demonstrate problems in the official account, and on the other hand there are non-experts who denounce the experts as conspiracy kooks. The experts are cautious and careful about what they say, and their detractors have thrown caution and care to the wind. That is the state of the debate.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article29114.htm

trying2learn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Sep, 2011 02:09 pm
@trying2learn,
Those that responded to sift through the rubble wanted to find any part of a human. They wanted to give the families something, as small as a piece of bone, in hopes of helping them with their grief. Many people spent countless hours to collect dna from families and parts of bodies so maybe, just maybe, it would help them deal with their grief.

Someone doubted the thought of vaporizing. Where nothing is left. It is a reality as sad as it may seem. Sometimes all you find is charred remains. You cannot collect dna from a person who is burnt to ash.
trying2learn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Sep, 2011 02:14 pm
@JTT,
My evidence for my opinion is not based on blogs or conspiracy theorists. It is based on real people who went to the site.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 17 Sep, 2011 02:16 pm
@trying2learn,
Quote:
They wanted to give the families something, as small as a piece of bone, in hopes of helping them with their grief.


Compare this to the saturation bombing of cities, towns and villages in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Iraq and Afghanistan. Remember, these were people that the US pretended that they wanted to help.

Not only didn't the US attempt to gather their remains, so that the families would have something, they hid their atrocities. They couldn't even be bothered with trying to maintain a body count of the very people they were trying to help - "we don't do body counts".

JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 17 Sep, 2011 02:25 pm
@Ticomaya,
Odd that you would put so much trust in an organization which won't even reveal how it came to the conclusions that it did, Tico. Oh wait, it's Tico I'm talking to.

Quote:
The Fires at the World Trade Centers Were NOT Very Hot

The government agency in charge of the investigation of why three buildings collapsed on 9/11 - the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) - says that paint tests indicated low steel temperatures -- 480 Fahrenheit -- "despite pre-collapse exposure to fire". NIST also said that microstructure tests showed no steel reached critical (half-strength) values of 600 Celsius (1112 degrees Fahrenheit) for any significant time.

Numerous top fire protection engineers have said that the fires in the World Trade Centers were not that hot. For example:

A mechanical engineer with 20 years experience as a Fire Protection Engineer for the U.S. Departments of Energy, Defense, and Veterans Affairs, who is a contributing Subject Matter Expert to the U.S. Department of Energy Fire Protection Engineering Functional Area Qualification Standard for Nuclear Facilities, a board member of the Northern California - Nevada Chapter of the Society of Fire Protection Engineers, currently serving as Fire Protection Engineer for the city of San Jose, California, the 10th largest city in the United States (Edward S. Munyak) says that the fires weren't big enough to bring down Building 7:

The former head of NIST's Fire Science Division, who is one of the world’s leading fire science researchers and safety engineers, a Ph.D. in mechanical engineering (Dr. James Quintiere), called for an independent review of the World Trade Center collapse investigation. "I would really like to see someone else take a look at what they've done; both structurally and from a fire point of view. ... I think the official conclusion that NIST arrived at [that fire and damage from the attacks brought down the buildings] is questionable.
In addition, Thomas Eager, a Professor of Materials Engineering and Engineering Systems at MIT and a defender of the official story, concluded that the temperatures in the Twin Towers never exceeded 800 Celsius (1472 degrees Fahrenheit). Eager pointed out that, contrary to popular belief, jet fuel from the planes did not increase the temperature of the fires.

Structural engineer Antonio Artha notes:

Fire and impact were insignificant in all three buildings.
Structural engineer Graham John Inman points out:

The fire on this building [World Trade Building 7] was small & localized therefore what is the cause?
Thermal images also suggest that the temperature of the steel in the north tower at the time of the fire was not much more than 250 degrees Fahrenheit (and see this).

video available at,

http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2011/05/arguments-regarding-collapse-of-world.html
trying2learn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Sep, 2011 02:49 pm
@JTT,
I don't feel a need to compare that day to any other day. I believe those that were there at the sites. You have a good night because I know I will Smile
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Sep, 2011 03:05 pm
@trying2learn,
Quote:
I believe those that were there at the sites.


That's not at all at issue, T2L. There's no doubt that there were many 1st responders who did a marvelous and heroic job.

It's odd though that anyone who suggests that they are 'trying2 learn' goes to such lengths to avoid precisely that.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Sep, 2011 03:10 pm
@JTT,
I love how you argue that no steel was saved JTT then argue that tests of paint on the steel proves something.

Which is it JTT?
Did the investigation test the paint on steel that was saved or not?
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 17 Sep, 2011 04:39 pm
@parados,
Quote:
I love how you argue that no steel was saved JTT then argue that tests of paint on the steel proves something


Again with the bald faced lies, Parados. That marks you as a pretty low piece of scum.

You keep ignoring the issue. How much steel was saved, Paraliar?
JTT
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 17 Sep, 2011 04:59 pm
@trying2learn,
Quote:
I don't feel a need to compare that day to any other day.


Do you ever feel a need, do you ever have a feeling that you should compare that one day to the years of suffering that the Iraqis, Afghans, Vietnamese, Nicaraguans, Filipinos, Koreans, Guatemalans, Chileans, Iranians, Cubans, ... have had to go through because of the terrorists actions of US governments?

Quote:
You have a good night because I know I will


Of course you will.

You don't have to worry about some foreign invaders banging down your door at night, scaring the hell out of your kids, taking away your husband for torture.

You don't have to worry about being bombed into oblivion.

You don't have to worry about your kids playing in the remains of depleted uranium, babies being born deformed from the US governments use of these WMDs.

You don't have to worry about foreign invaders taking hundreds of men, women and children from your town and line them up and machine gunning them.

Sleep tight, T2L.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Sat 17 Sep, 2011 05:52 pm
@JTT,
Obviously enough steel was saved to do an investigation of the heat generated by the fire.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Sep, 2011 06:16 pm
@parados,
Good Lord, is JTT going on about saved steel again?!
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Sep, 2011 07:40 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
I have to get him off the "US is guilty of war crimes" meme now and again or he'll go crazy.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 17 Sep, 2011 07:50 pm
@parados,
Quote:
Obviously enough steel was saved to do an investigation of the heat generated by the fire.


Quote:
Good Lord, is JTT going on about saved steel again?!


Quote:
I have to get him off the "US is guilty of war crimes" meme


Listen to these two assholes, two renowned liars stroking each other.

How much steel was save, Parados, or Finn?
parados
 
  4  
Reply Sat 17 Sep, 2011 08:04 pm
@JTT,
Did they do an investigation of the paint on the steel or not JTT?

If they did, then there was enough steel kept for the investigation.
If they didn't then your argument about the heat of the fire is contradicted.

Your "how much did the save" was answered a LONG time ago with a link the the exact numbers. At least I'm not the asshole asking the same question over and over simply because I didn't like the answer.
 

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