The horror of Sept. 11th, 2001

Back at you.

You can't see the irony?

You don't think your shrill, self-righteous and hypocritical offense at what some may feel is shrill, self-righteous and hypocritical is worthy of comment?

I apologise for overestimating your powers of comprehension - I thought I said what I had to say with maximum brevity.

Nice come back though.

Why is it so difficult for you to comprehend that this thread is about the tragic events of 9/11/01? If you want to celebrate the start of the War on Terror with a mourning thread, have at it. If you want to start a thread about Iraqis, or Afghans, Japanese, or Rwandans, feel free.

We get it ... your heart bleeds.


What I get is that you and your fellow travelers rarely miss an opportunity to take a swipe at the "evil" United States. And you have no respect for anyone who is more offended by the terrorist attacks on 9/11, than by the War on Terror. Piss on you.

You know, George, it is really not so difficult to gain an excellent insight into "the horrors of the war against terror " simply from reading one's daily newspaper, by simply following the news.
And from gaining further insights & information from the variety of legitimate news resources online.

but and as to:

Since when has any A2K thread not been a matter for open discussion?
Maybe what you describe as "opposition" is simply the genuine views that many posters hold?

You say you are concerned about what some (American, I presume) A2Kers might consider " shrill, self-righteous and hypocritical" reactions on this thread.

Considering the contents some of your posts in the past (not so much recently) , I find your concern for the sensitivity others quite interesting.

Go back & read what I have actually posted here (given that you have addressed this comment to me) & tell me exactly what I have posted which is offensive to "a very large number of people in this country". Meaning the US, of course.
I am perfectly happy to have a discussion about anything I've posted here with you, George.

But tell me, is it more offensive for a person outside the the US to comment on a public forum about a "sensitive" US matter?

If you go back to the start if this thread, George, you will read posts from US A2Kers which were possibly more critical than later non-US posters' views.

Are you going to berate them, for their "shrill, self-righteous and hypocritical" posts, too?

Is Tico calling them "a bunch of leftists", too?

Or are your criticisms only directed at "foreigners"?

Or is it a case of: how dare we have an opinion on anything to do with US policies!

I do judge the criticism of foreigners on topics like this one more harshly than those of my countrymen. I don't think that is a particularly unusual reaction. Almost 3,000 of mny countrymen were killed on Sept. 11 2001, and I think you should have taken your expressions of political opinion somewhere else.

Moreover since my country is the object of so much unwanted attention on such matters, I think that aspect of the issue is a bit more intense than it might otherwise be.

I don't think my comments above were either shrill or offensive: instead they were a fairly muted response to an needless offense. However, I find your reaction to have both qualities.

You are fully entitled to your opinions and political views. Moreover, you are certainly free to express them here or wherever else you choose. However, I and others are equally entitled to wish that you would occasionally shut up.

That sounds reasonable considering that you also think 3000 american lives are worth more than 1.5 million iraqi lives. You're a prize alright.

George, consider this:
What are something like Australian 1550 - 2000 Australian troops doing in Afghanistan, considering that we at not even a NATA member?

And considering that ordinary Australians have no beef what-so-ever with Afghanistan?

Do you think those troops would be there if the Australian government wasn't supporting US policy in Afghanistan, despite many Australians considering the war (which I consider an extended period of occupation) in that country is "unwinnable"?)

How dare you suggest that citizens of those countries which have supported misguided US policies in Afghanistan & Iraq somehow have less right to comment on "the war on terror" than Americans do.
Or anyone else, from any other country for that matter.

I'm curious Msolga, do you feel that we should not have pursued the Taliban in Afghanistan?

That was the original brief, apparently, Wayne.

To destroy Al-Qaeda & the Taliban in Afghanistan, following 9/11.

My own personal view (not that of the Australian government at the time & since, obviously) is that we should not have become involved at all. Australia is not a NATO member & many of the original members of "the Coalition of the Willing" have quite correctly (in my opinion) pulled their troops out.

As to the citizens of Afghanistan, what exactly have they gained by our troops supporting such a corrupt & discredited government?
And how many innocent casualties as a result of this extended occupation which we no longer seem to be clear about the reasons for?

But my original point was, given that "foreign" troops have supported the US in both Afghanistan & Iraq (no matter what my personal view on both those situations might be) I think it is a bit rich of George to suggest that we have some sort of lesser right to comment on "the war on terror" because we are not Americans.

It might have worked if you'd done a proper job in the first place. It was like getting a plumber round to fit a new sink, who rips out the old one, then spends the rest of the week rolling cigarettes before rushing off to another job in Iraq.

I don't agree with any opinion that you are less entitled to comment on the war on terror. Terrorism affects us all, sooner or later.
For my own opinion, I don't see how America, at least, could avoid going into Afghanistan after the Taliban, Al-Qaeda and Bin Laden. Of course we all well knew ( or should have ), by Soviet experience, what that meant in the long run.
I hate the position we are in, but I cannot agree the job is finished until there is a reasonable guarantee that Afghanistan can form a government strong enough to prevent the Taliban operating with impunity.
All of us, oz included, would just end up where we started, with an amped up version of Somalia.

LOL, what's a proper job consist of in a situation like Afghanistan?
Your reply belies the understanding I would expect from your caliber Izzy.
The politics in Afghanistan don't easily form themselves to western Ideals.

I hate to speak for Izzy, but I think his/her point was that Iraq distracted completely from Afghanistan. If so, I agree. Olga and I have discussed this a few times and we disagree on Afghanistan, but I can see her point.

Somalia - what a mess - maybe if they discover oil or provide some terrorism training camps they'll get some intervention (intentional dark humour). Not blaming the US for that one GeorgeOB, honest!

After the initial invasion Afghanistan was left to fester. This is a country almost perpetually at war, the post invasion period was the right time to invest in infrastructure, education good government etc. It didn't happen until much later, after so many resources had been wasted in an illegal war in Iraq, and all the goodwill of the Afghani people had evaporated.

His.

Yeah, I personally see absolutely no justification for the Iraq debacle. Not only did it distract from Afghanistan, it opened the door to tarring it with the same brush. I currently view that as a knee jerk reaction by a government that wasn't as good at their job as they should have been, naming no names.

I am constantly amazed at how Somalia has continued to exist as it has for so long. Even the piracy tactic doesn't seem to draw much interest. It's like the place is hell and everyone just accepts it's existence, weird.

Ok, I can see that, and there really is no excuse. Of course we didn't understand the needs when we went in, but we should have, we all saw the soviet experience.

I hate to mix Iraq and Afghanistan together, but I must agree the senselessness of Iraq queered the deal in Afghanistan.
But that doesn't mean we shouldn't stick it out at this point and do our level best to ensure some stability with a decent chance of a future.

There was an interview on RT the other day with one of Colin Powell's former aides. (Sorry I forget his name, and I do realise RT has an agenda) He said that 9/11 happened on Bush/Cheney's watch, and that all their foreign policy objectives were to try to get people to ignore that simple fact.

Had they listened to the outgoing Clinton administration's warnings about Al Qaida, and improved airport security a bit, 9/11 could have been avoided.

Regarding Afghanistan another interview I saw claimed that the British spoke to the Russians about their experiences. The Russians ignored British advice. The Russians spoke to the Americans about their experiences, and guess what, the Americans ignored their advice.

As for sticking out the course, I honestly don't know. There seems to be just as much evidence of the harm we're doing as there is of the good. So, to reiterate my position, I don't know.