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Question to those who do or do not doubt Christianity

 
 
Anomie
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Apr, 2012 10:01 am
@Setanta,
I am not certain how any emotion can express propositions of binary values or a naturalistic excluded middle.

If I was to suggest that you are bad, how would this assertion be predicative?

It has not been defined, however if this non cognitive instrument is operationalised, such as bad being defined as the lowest life span for the average human, why would this concept be naturalistically necessary or true?

It appears to be social/normative, there is no formal, nor natural scientific arguementation, in fact utilitarianism may only scientifically investigated by "social science", which presuposses evolution, being relative to how a natural science would pressupose mathematical truths, it would be circular to prove or verify, furthermore it is acknowledged that words, such as mental have NO physical quantity to be measured by natural scientific apparatus.

Also, how is a utilitarian moral values predicted?

Christians believe that their God is a moral law giver (omniscient/benevolent), these conditions are pressuposed to override physical laws (omnipotent).

An example of this is Jesus and the divine authority of exorcism.

Therefore, "claims of moral superiority" are valid from a christian interpretation.

I already argued that morality is immaterial, ad hoc hypothesis, agnostics, nor atheists have an obligation to such values, even if there is a spectrum of intrinsic values, though the error of intrinsic values is that it does not explain how a human conscious can actualise a metaphysics of logical possibility, a priori to any nomological conditions, meaning conscious beings have no obligation EVEN if human flourishing was the suggested objective.
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Apr, 2012 10:18 am
@Anomie,
If you learned to communicate in the English language, i might be interested in conversing with you. However, i don't speak and am not interested in learning jargon. I am certainly not interested in what you may have already argued.
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Apr, 2012 12:11 pm
@Setanta,
And most of us on here are not interested in Setanta not being interested in what Anomie has to say. This site would crash if everybody not interested in what Anomie has to say came on to let us know.

I don't see why Anomie displaying his expertise in his chosen subject is any different from displaying an expertise in any other subject. A lot of history that I see when an expertise in the subject is being displayed is mumbo-jumbo to me. It's as bad as taking the news to be an accurate picture of what is going on. Or what scientists say being a guide to what scientists are really like.

Based on what scientists say it is a miracle that we haven't voted them into office long ago. That we haven't yet they would condescendingly put down to stupidity. Obviously. It's the only solution to the mystery.

Parroting that we are stupid is just a way of cosying up to the admired ones, especially the Nobel bunch, most of whom preened themselves into oblivion at the ceremony. Decoded it means "not stupid". Well--it would wouldn't it? The internal logic demands the conclusion.
0 Replies
 
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Apr, 2012 01:01 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
None of those constitute evidence that the other founders thought he was an atheist, which was your claim.

Because you, and others on here are too dumb to read between the lines...Did Jefferson have to say I am atheist, to validate it for you? Or can you not use your brain? You guys think your smart do to math, science, and history, or probables...But in terms of common sense, and or philosophical, or good judgment calls, you guys are fucken lost....That would mean, your the ones who are not the fit for survival, and are under the impression others make bad choices based on a God, But it is you who can't not distinguish a good choice from a bad one...and are crippled....Keep hitting those books, If you think that is the answer!

As far as Izzy's post there are far more atheists who think of higher superiority than that of theists...Since you discredit Bill, and RL I will give you 3 other examples...


http://able2know.org/topic/176688-2#post-4715575

http://able2know.org/topic/176688-158#post-4952451

"Why is it that you can't be the one that's wrong when so many people here (who are significantly smarter than you) are stating that you are?"

http://able2know.org/topic/185542-55#post-4944269

XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Apr, 2012 01:43 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
Well, that was wonderfully incoherent. Can we take it as given that you're one of the god squad?

Like Found Said, Does it matter? You CAN NOT use science to destroy her personal experiences or mine for that example as well...

It is that simple....

Deal with it!
Chights47
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Apr, 2012 02:12 pm
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:
Like Found Said, Does it matter? You CAN NOT use science to destroy her personal experiences or mine for that example as well...

It is that simple....

Deal with it!
I would disagree with this, but that would be under the assumption you would actually listen to the science behind the mental processes that go on which lead you to believe these experience are real...you might remember the video I asked you to watch several times a few month back which you refused at every turn?
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Apr, 2012 03:00 pm
@Chights47,
But the science that goes on behind Spade's mental processes is the same as the science that goes on behind yours. And mine.

Just like movies are all different but the science behind them is the same.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Apr, 2012 03:04 pm
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
Quote:
"Why is it that you can't be the one that's wrong when so many people here (who are significantly smarter than you) are stating that you are?"

http://able2know.org/topic/185542-55#post-4944269


Is there a possibility that you were not able to get Fido's point? Let us take a look at that one more time.

Frank's quote;
Quote:
What you want, Fido, is to feel superior. You are not. In any case,



Fido's quote joking back at frank because of what frank said. Surprised Shocked Wink

Quote:
It is pointless to talk of what you do not know, so why bother?... And it has nothing to do with my obvious superiority to say so.


Is there a possibility that we could be wrong more often than what we would like to believe? Idea
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Apr, 2012 03:15 pm
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
http://able2know.org/topic/176688-2#post-4715575

Fil Albuquerque's quote;
Quote:
..just shut the **** up Spades ! What the hell do you know on my atheism anyway eh ?
...I just don´t believe in a childish, personnel and anthropomorphic God as you do...my God is a more abstract an less colourful less playful picture, not for your taste tedium mortal !

Sounds like that person was just being mad at you, You know how you get mad at times and tell people how you feel without taking into account how you may be coming across?
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Apr, 2012 03:21 pm
@XXSpadeMasterXX,


Quote:
We are moving in a way that will lead us to truth when we follow
science, we may not follow the path to truth every time but as Thomas Edison once said "I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.

I had to include this seperately because it was so funny. It's funny because you always talk about how people can always be so wrong yet you always seem to be the exclusion of that. You always say it when someone is in opposition to you because you have to be the one that's right. Why is it that you can't be the one that's wrong when so many people here (who are significantly smarter than you) are stating that you are? Are you really that naive to think you're smarter than the most brilliant men who have walked the planet, let alone all the people who are calling you out here?


I think he is just disagreeing with you and he is being honest not trying to be superior.
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Apr, 2012 03:33 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:

Maybe you're just hypercritical of my posts because I'm English


Do you honestly believe that that could be Setanta's problem Dr Izzy?
0 Replies
 
Chights47
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Apr, 2012 03:44 pm
@spendius,
Not exactly, but very similar. For example a person that has increased activity in the temporal lobe of their brain may believe they have visions of a past life they once lived or some other supernatural event. This, however, is not true no matter how close their visions were to a real persons life. There are secular explainations for everything, most of which can be backed with evidence. If people would just open their minds and not automatically write off anything they don't agree with, people would see that.
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Apr, 2012 04:01 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
I'm supposed to care? All i see is a smug holy roller, who makes assumptions about others without knowing them.


Point out the assumptions... Given I am talking hypothetically, or personally can't see it.. What is an assumption, is your assumption of me.

0 Replies
 
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Apr, 2012 04:22 pm
@Chights47,
http://wwwindelibleco.blogspot.com.au/2008/08/do-ghosts-existscience-tells-us-that.html

Do Ghosts Exist?Science tells us that nothing in nature, not even the tiniest particle, can disappear without a trace. Think about that for a moment.
Yes, ghosts exist! But how do we know that ghosts exist? People have been asking, "Do ghosts really exist?" for ages.

Just what are ghosts? How does science explain the phenomenon of ghosts? Why do ghosts appear? And how?

There are a great many books on ghosts. But few books explain the physics of ghosts or say anything on how ghosts interact with the physical world. Just how do we account scientifically for the phenomenon?

Recent discoveries in quantum physics (the study of the physics of sub-atomic particles) and in cosmology (the branch of astronomy and astrophysics that deals with the universe taken as a whole) shed much light on how mind interacts with the universe. These discoveries compel acceptance of the idea that there is far more than just one universe and that we constantly interact with many of these "hidden" universes.

Unfortunately, most books on quantum cosmology are written in language that an ordinary intelligent person cannot understand. Moreover, many if not most scientists are in a state of denial of anything supernatural. They are blind to the paranormal and simply cannot see the obvious logical conclusions of their own discoveries.

What is needed is a source that explains in understandable, non-mathematical terms the relationship between mind and matter––how spirit and mind interact with the physical world.


GHOSTLY FACTS:
Ghosts have no sense of passing time.


Often, they do not know that they are dead.


Sometimes they exist in a state of confusion, perhaps like being stuck in a dream.


Ghosts can smell things and love the smell of lemons.


Ghosts have a sense of humor and love to hear humans laugh.

Sometimes ghosts get bored with their surroundings

Most ghosts are happy, but some still cling to an emotional pain.

They can appear to the living in dreams.

They can leave behind certain scents, such as perfume.

They can make sounds that are audible.

They use their energies and ours to move things.

They are pranksters.

They usually appear as intense balls of light called orbs that are neon blue or violet.

Ghosts favor night due to the decrease in daytime energy use.

Ghosts may appear as mists or vapors.



A hooded black smoky figure is a dark entity and you should be careful around them. They usually appear at the foot of beds.

Some alleged hauntings are actually a "residue," which is a past event that replays itself over and over.

Certain places are portals or vortexes where ghosts transport themselves.

Hauntings are most intense around children entering puberty, as kids this age are emitting immense amounts of energy.

Ghosts can read your thoughts.

Ghosts retain all the memories and emotions of their lives.


Sometimes ghosts are trapped and need to be released. Let them know they can move on.


Noisy, troublesome ghosts are known as poltergeists.

_________________________________________

The belief that human spirits could continue to haunt the living after death goes back to ancient times. We know that many primitive societies' burial customs included rituals to banish the spirits of the departed from the earth. As far back as biblical times, King Saul had the Witch of Endor summon the spirit of dead prophet Samuel for advice. More recently, in the late 19th and early 20th century, the belief that the living could contact the dead through spiritualism and séances tickled the public's fancy. Currently TV shows where "ghost hunters" trek to supposedly haunted locations to find spooks are popular on the cable channels.

What does science have to say about ghosts and their hauntings? Are they real? Or are they just the product of our overactive imaginations?

Souls Not at Rest

Most ghost stories are connected with the idea that spirits are the souls of people who died under difficult circumstances - for example, murder or suicide - and continue to inhabit the earth. Troubled by their death, they haunt the places where they lived and died, unable to move on to the afterlife. One early account of this involves the Greek philosopher Athenodoros Cananites. Athenodoros became interested in a haunted house in Athens and started watching it at night. Late one evening an old man, bound at the feet and hands with rattling chains, appeared to him and beckoned the scholar to follow him. The ghost disappeared suddenly and Athenodoros had the spot where he vanished dug up. A man's shackled bones were found at the location and after a proper re-burial, the haunting ended.

Tales like those of Athenodoros are typical but don't really prove that ghosts exist. For science to confirm anything a phenomenon must be repeatable. Unfortunately ghosts, if they exist, do not seem to keep a regular schedule and their sporadic appearances make scientific observation nearly impossible. In addition, there is no scientific theory involving physics to explain how ghosts would work.

The Problems of Proving Ghosts

This, however, does not prove that ghosts do not exist. For many years scientists refused to believe in meteorites because their falling out of the sky was sporadic and not predictable or repeatable. Scientists also viewed the universe as perfect and had no theory to explain how there could be little pieces of extra rock floating around in space.

Of course, meteorites do exist
and they now have been observed on many occasions. They also fit in with our current scientific theories. Might we one day be able to prove ghosts exist? Even if we can't do that today, perhaps science can do the next best thing and prove that a location is "haunted."



Part of the "haunted" Edinburgh Vaults. (Licensed from Kjetil Bjørnsrud/Wikipedia Commons)

This is exactly the type of research that Professor Richard Wiseman of the University of Hertfordshire in the United Kingdom has done. Wiseman is known for his investigations on the quirky side of science, delving into such areas as humor, luck and the paranormal.

_____________________________________

So, my take on all of that is... Scientists have gotten many a thing wrong, as evident above. Scientists aim and goal is to prove something that is un-explainable or provide something that has not been done before that is beneficial. But, if they can not explain what a ghost is, and they can not, although some "think" they give a plausible at least, explanation but not all agree, then people can not state either, that ghosts which we believe to be lost souls, therefore not of this world, that they don't exist or that Spades dreams and sightings aren't real.

Argue all you want.. Science can not answer what a ghost is.. Therefore, they can not and nor can anyone here, argue my personal experiences, or that of Spades..

reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Apr, 2012 04:41 pm
@FOUND SOUL,
Quote:
Argue all you want.. Science can not answer what a ghost is.. Therefore, they can not and nor can anyone here, argue my personal experiences, or that of Spades..


Quote:
then people can not state either, that ghosts which we believe to be lost souls, therefore not of this world, that they don't exist or that Spades dreams and sightings aren't real.


Are you suggesting that you and spade may be ghost? Or do you see ghost?
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Apr, 2012 05:05 pm
@reasoning logic,
Found Soul quote

Quote:
Science can not answer what a ghost is..


I love that kind of insane logic an what do you mean by a ghost and where is the hell is your evidence for whatever you mean by a ghost existing.

spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Apr, 2012 05:10 pm
@Chights47,
I had used the word "exactly" at first but I deleted it. It possibly is exactly but it struck me that the science behind movies might not be exactly the same in all cases.

It would depend on how restricted or expansive the definition of science being used.

Your alternative, it seems to me, is that Spade and FS are having us on. Which leads, with the narrow definition of science, to that you are.

And I am. It's an interesting subject. I once accused my reflection in a posh pub's piss nook's mirror, after about 8 pints, of being a complete asshole. I had been hypnotising a cute doxie and had every intention of going back to the programme after I had shook off the last drop.
0 Replies
 
Chights47
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Apr, 2012 05:42 pm
@FOUND SOUL,
Ok, so this is about ghosts, I'll assume that you hold most, if not all, of these views as truth but that doesn't really matter at this time. Based on this information, I would assume that a ghost is basically the disembodied mind of a person that is no longer living. There are several problems with this, in order for a ghost to come into existence, it would seem that a person would have to leave this world in the form of death. In death, the body (including the brain) decay and rot away. The problem with this, is Phineas Gage...or at least just one of the problems. Science has been able to specifically pinpoint that a persons mind is directly affected by the state of the brain. In the case of Phineas Gage, he sustained a horrific wound to the head which destroy much of his brains left frontal lobe. Before the accident he was regarded as an honest and gentlemanly man and after he was a scoundrel who wasted much of his money gambling and on whores and even his only family could hardly recognize him and thought thought that he was a completely different person. With this evidence in mind, we are able to see that the destruction of only a small portion of the brain can fundamentally change a person personality to the point where it is unrecognizable. What's funny is that you believe that when it's our entire brain that is destroyed in death, we seperate from our bodies and our previous minds are whole and well. Based on all the neurological evidences that we have and with all that we know about the mind and brain. Ghosts are little more than a childs irrational dream.

If you still persist and think that ghosts exist, then answer me this. If Phineas Gage were a ghost walking the earth now, which personality would he have and what is your reasoning behind your answer?
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Apr, 2012 06:15 pm
0 Replies
 
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Apr, 2012 06:28 pm
@reasoning logic,
RL..

I have no doubt that people "see things" that can be explained scientifically, so let me get that part straight. What I am saying though that Scientists are "human" and the word "ghost" is a real word in the dictionary. The difference being, much like God. It's a matter of belief and to me that stems from what you may or may not have seen in your lifetime, as to whether or not you believe either exist..

I truly hope you were joking on the part of " do I suggest that I am a ghost"... Have I seen ghosts?

I conclude that I have, more than once.. If you want me to type away what I saw or heard and you guys try to analize, given I am "normal" not in-sane, then by all means... I am happy to. Because, If I can not work it out and therefore in my mind "have to believe", they exist as nothing can be proven otherwise in these instances, then how can anyone else. But, happy to give it a go.

 

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