@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
Back on the farm in Michigan where my momma's family comes from we call that
S. T. U. P.I. D.
You must have as many words for stupid, as the eskimos have for snow.
@msolga,
You might (or might not ) be interested in this letter to the editor, published today in
the AGE newspaper in Melbourne.
It relates to issues I mentioned in an earlier post to this thread, about mandatory evacuation (or not) in bushfire-prone areas of my state during times of extreme risk. Much the same issues NYC authorities would have had to consider when the initial hurricane warnings were so extreme ...
Me, I'd opt for safety everytime, in such circumstances. As one poster to this thread (farmer, I think) said, imagine what the human & other losses
might have been, in some of the worst affected areas, if the initial warnings hadn't been so serious?
On Black Saturday 2009, 173 people lost their lives & 200 homes were destroyed.
Like the writer of this letter, I would much have preferred mandatory evacuation had applied in Victoria at the time, rather than experience anything remotely resembling the pain, horror & the cost to human life we experienced on that day:
Quote:New York can do it, why can't we?
HOW is it possible that in the ''land of the free'', where personal liberty is paramount, areas of New York City can be compulsorily evacuated (''New York cops a battering from violent nature, The Age, 29/8), yet in Victoria we spend millions on a royal commission and it does not recommend a similar path for our bush-fire-prone areas?
Instead, the Victorian Bushfires Royal Commission, with the benefit of hindsight in an air-conditioned courtroom, foisted blame on to the professionals who did their very best under unimaginable circumstances; and recommended the annual burning of vast areas of native vegetation - in the most cleared state in the nation.
It would appear the only reason compulsory evacuation has not been recommended by a series of expensive royal commissions is the lack of political will. There is now a huge opportunity for the government, through the Premier, to demonstrate strong leadership.
While the state cannot force people to leave, such a policy focuses the mind of those living in vulnerable areas. The more people who leave the night before, the fewer that authorities need to attend to on the day.
Geoff Wescott, associate professor, Deakin University, Burwood
http://www.theage.com.au/national/letters/just-the-lucky-not-clever-country-20110829-1jid8.html
@Finn dAbuzz,
I recently saw report that SCientists atNASA or SANDIA (not sure which) had measured tempereature differences for the inner planets of the solar system (up to and including Jupiter) and te reflectance temperature from atmospheric scattering on each planet had measured an increse of temp of about 1.2 degrees C for the last 25 or 30 years.
SDO the inhabitants of each of these planets also burn fossil fuels?
@izzythepush,
Quote: The only people who don't believe it are idiots, and evil old men in the pockets of the fossil fuel giants.
Im not convinced that there is human inducede global warming going on . I admit that there is climate change but I have no confidence in the present school of climate scientists who are making a secure living on pedicting global doom because of "greenhouse gases:
First, the presence of CO2 is ice cores going back several tens of thousands of years show fairly consistently that CO2 rises are a CONSEQUENCE of atmospheric warming and not necessarily a CAUSE.
This issue has becpme politicized so much that its nigh on impossible to be a liberal and not "believe" in the religion of human induced global warming.
Id like to consider that we break that political relationship and look at the science.
Atmospheric pollution is real and that there is no doubt. We can see the pH change in rain and the addition of **** like NOx and SOx hydrates in the rainwater. The acidification of streams and lakes is enough of a consequence to be concerned of and IIm afraid that theres nothing significant that can be done re global climate change. Climate will change for a multitude of cyclic geodetic and axial and orbital changes as well as major changes in sunspot activity. (Which we are entering a wholke new phase of since last two years).
@hawkeye10,
I'm surprised you are only attacking NYC hawk..
Christie told people to stay home from work today in NJ AFTER the storm.
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/08/hurricane_irene_aftermath_gov.html
@farmerman,
You might want to check your "science" on that one FM.
http://www.skepticalscience.com/global-warming-other-planets-solar-system-intermediate.htm
Quote:There are several flaws in this line of thought. Firstly, the characterisation that the whole solar system is warming is erroneous. Around 6 planets or moons out of the more than 100 bodies in the solar system have been observed to be warming.
...
With the exception of Pluto, climate change on other planets are fairly understood:
@farmerman,
Quote:major changes in sunspot activity. (Which we are entering a wholke new phase of since last two years).
But...I just read that instead of an expected increase or peak in sunspot activity, there's a lull. Scientists have no idea why we're now in minimal activity cycle.
Post-Tropical Cyclone Irene has killed 40 people in the US, and authorities warn that flooding could continue for up to three days in northern US states.
More than five million people remain without power, while Vermont is reeling from its worst floods in many decades.
Insurance claims could top $7bn (£4.3bn), the Consumer Federation of America estimated.
Irene has passed into Canada, after causing havoc on the US east coast from North Carolina to Vermont.
Driving rains and flood tides damaged homes and cut power to more than three million people in New Jersey, Connecticut and New York alone.
Vermont governor lashes out
Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano and Agriculture Secretary Tom Vilsack will visit North Carolina and Virginia on Tuesday to survey the storm damage.
Scott Snyder from the American Red Cross: "Some rivers are still rising"
Federal Emergency Management Agency chief Craig Fugate will head to Vermont.
In north-eastern Canada the first possible Irene-related fatality has been recorded.
A man was swept away in Yamaska, north-east of Montreal, as two cars plunged into a chasm created when a road was washed away, Quebec police said.
Nearly a quarter of a million people in Quebec, which saw winds as high as 62mph (100km/h), lost power on Sunday night.
An Associated Press news agency tally found 40 people had been killed in 11 US states, mostly because of falling trees, ocean waves, downed power lines and raging floods.
In the rural state of Vermont, the last to be hit before Irene reached Canada, the storm washed away bridges and swamped the town of Brattleboro.
Touring the town, Governor Peter Shumlin criticised media coverage for focusing on New York, saying: "We're not Manhattan, but we have human lives here in Vermont, too."
"It breaks your heart to see the extraordinary devastation that we're seeing here in Vermont," he said.
Hundreds stranded
Three deaths in Vermont have been blamed on the storm.
Storm tragedies
Celena Sylvestri, 20, drowned when her car filled with water on a flooded New Jersey road. She had called her boyfriend and 911 for help.
A New York man was electrocuted when he tried to rescue a child on a street with downed power lines.
Two men in Florida drowned as they tried to swim or surf rough waves.
Seven people were crushed by falling trees in Pennsylvania and Virginia.
In the town of Waterbury, Irene closed the Vermont Emergency Management headquarters and the Vermont State Hospital, where some 50 patients were moved to other facilities.
Authorities asked people to avoid travelling in the state, which received 11in (33cm) of rain, and warned of significant flooding, damaged roads and downed power lines.
The storm caused part of a ski lodge to collapse in the town of Killington, where as many as 300 guests and 100 staff were stranded on Monday due to flooded roads.
Meanwhile, nearly 100 people remained stranded in mountain towns in New York State due to washed out roads and bridges. The storm dumped 13in of rain on the state.
New York Governor Andrew Cuomo said dozens of bridges and roadways would need to be repaired and that some of the state's rivers had yet to crest from flooding.
"You're going see more damage before it starts to get better," he told reporters.
In New York City, which escaped the worst of Irene's fury on Sunday, the subway network and three main airports all reopened on Monday.
More than 300,000 people evacuated from low-lying areas in New York City are now able to return home.
Refunds demanded
Irene has been downgraded from a hurricane to a tropical storm and now a post-tropical cyclone since Saturday.
Creeks and rivers overflowed their banks and destroyed bridges and roads in Vermont
Some Americans who bought candles, canned food and other emergency provisions in recent days demanded refunds on Monday, claiming Irene's threat had been exaggerated.
Claims for wind damage are expected to be one sixth of the total sum from Hurricane Katrina in 2005, and claims for flood damage one tenth, the Consumer Federation of America estimated.
Connecticut Governor Daniel Malloy said on Monday that more homes were without power as a result of the storm in his state than at any other time in its modern history.
States south of New York, where Irene struck at hurricane strength on Saturday and Sunday, have begun cleaning up, assessing the damage and counting the dead.
North Carolina Governor Beverly Perdue said some areas of the state were still unreachable. TV footage showed fallen trees and power lines.
Officials in Virginia have begun the clear-up, but say the damage was not as bad as feared.
@farmerman,
I'm not sure if we're heading towards Maunder Minimum cycle now or not:
"The Maunder Minimum (also known as the prolonged sunspot minimum) is the name used for the period roughly spanning 1645 to 1715 when sunspots became exceedingly rare, as noted by solar observers of the time."
@parados,
I dont expect much out of New Jersey.....
@farmerman,
From NASA Earth Science publication:
http://science.nasa.gov/earth-science/big-questions/is-the-global-earth-system-changing-and-what-are-the-consequences
How is the global earth system changing?
Quote:How is the global earth system changing? Earth is currently in a period of warming. Over the last century, Earth's average temperature rose about 1.1°F (0.6°C). In the last two decades, the rate of our world's warming accelerated and scientists predict that the globe will continue to warm over the course of the 21st century. Is this warming trend a reason for concern? After all, our world has witnessed extreme warm periods before, such as during the time of the dinosaurs. Earth has also seen numerous ice ages on roughly 11,000-year cycles for at least the last million years. So, change is perhaps the only constant in Earth's 4.5-billion-year history.
Scientists note that there are two new and different twists to today's changing climate: (1) The globe is warming at a faster rate than it ever has before; and (2) Humans are the main reason Earth is warming. Since the industrial revolution, which began in the mid-1800s, humans have attained the magnitude of a geological force in terms of our ability change Earth's environment and impact its climate system.
Since 1900, human population doubled and then double again. Today more than 6.5 billion people inhabit our world. By burning increasing amounts of coal and oil, we drove up carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere by 30 percent. Carbon dioxide is a "greenhouse gas" that traps warmth near the surface.
Humans are also affecting Earth's climate system in other ways. For example, we transformed roughly 40 percent of Earth's habitable land surface to make way for our crop fields, cities, roads, livestock pastures, etc. We also released particulate pollution (called "aerosols") into the atmosphere. Changing the surface and introducing aerosols into the atmosphere can both increase and reduce cloud cover. Thus, in addition to driving up average global temperature, humans are also influencing rainfall and drought patterns around the world. While scientists have solid evidence of such human influence, more data and research are needed to better understand and quantify our impact on our world's climate system.
@Ragman,
ok...well, the correct info is that the lowest sunspot activity was recorded at the end of 2008. We're heading upward towards a peak in 2013..allegedly. Go figure. Tell those hurricanes to calm down.
@parados,
He knew that a lot of roads were obstructed
with trees or water and transportation infrastructure
needed to be resurrected. Fewer people out
might facilitate that.
David
@parados,
AS I said, the increase in reflectance temp for the inner planets has been a finding that seems to berather robust. My comment was reffering to a conclusion that global warming seems to be unrelated to human intervention o places like VEnus or MArs or Jupiter.
@Ragman,
Ragman's source at NASA wrote:The globe is warming at a faster rate than it ever has before; and (2) Humans are the main reason Earth is warming.
Neither of these claims are supported by undeniable scientific evidence. I don't for a moment doubt that climate change is taking place. I most definitely doubt that it anthopogenic, and i have no doubt that no one has been able to demostrate that it is.
@parados,
This is a disingenuous response. FM did not state or imply that "the whole solar system is warming." Second, he only referred to about a half dozen planets and moons, because there is not reliable data for other planets, moon and planetoids. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Just because there is insufficient data to speak to this issue with confidence for all of the objects in the solar system is not a basis upon which to deny the significance of what data we do possess.
@Ragman,
My original comment was that sunspot activity has changed, meaning that its normal intensity has decreased in the last cycle and is predicted to decrease further into sunspot cycle 25 which is due to begin in 2020 and peak in 2022. The last cycle minimum was achieved in 2006 as reported by the US Air Force Coronal ResearchProgram. The Air Force program has been studying sunspot activities (as a weapons assist phenom) for about 4 decasdes and theyve been the ones to predict the long term decrease in sunspot activity. Other studies, including the Kitt PEak team, have employed geodesy means to actually measure the long term decerase of the suns magnetic intenisty (a cyclic phenom asscociated with sunspots). They predicted the decerase for susnpot cycle 25 independentky. Finally, a team at the NAtional Solar Observatory (located in Sunspot NM of all places) has noted that the startup of the zonal wind pattern of the sun is several years late and seems to reflect a massive decerase in sunspots for the next 11 year cycle.
Does this mean a "Maunder Minimum"? similar to 1645 to 1715?.
Doug Beisecker at NOAA , who wasnt part of the latest 3 studies commented for EARTH MAgazine that. PEriods of low sunspot activities take longer to ramp up so"lets not get all skeert just yet. If it continues into the next two or three years with no sunspots, then we can get excited"
The earths climate has, according to NOAA, been cooling a small bit in the klast 10 or 12 years.
Remember that Nature always bats last.
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:Remember that Nature always bats last.
A felicitous turn of phrase--i enjoyed that.
@Ragman,
For every scientist whose convinced that Global Warming is human induced , there are several EARTH SCIENTISTS who have been demanding to"Show us terrestrial evidence"!!
AS I said before, the CO2 levels dont reflect a cause and effect relationship as many would have us believe.
Ive been a critic of these evidence and plots and I and several others seem to get no response or a simple "youre wrong"/
The lack of good correlation of the synchronicity and "Global climate change" response to CO2 rises through geologic time just is not there. (There were a number of articles that claimed that there was a cause and effect relationship but several of these had shownsome data that was (Im not saying it was done on purpose), schmeared to collapse the time duration between mesurements in ice cores.
There are several earth axial and orbital cycles that seem to be well aligned with past and recent climate changes. My professional career has incidentally passed through several peaks of "panic prediction". Ive lived through the
1Were enetering another Ice Age
followed by
2The Earth is warming up due to our burning of forests and fossil fuels
The claim that all this is "Settled science" is bullshit. There were only a few but tenuous slivers of evidence that led to the global warming assertions of the late 1980's.
I think science is taking a dispassionate "Second look" at much of the GW data so lets just hang on and reserve judgement rather than jumping on board to support an assertion that was more the product of science reporters rather than real scientists.
The latest story is that "even though the globe seems to be cooling in the last ten years, gl;obal warming has modifed this cooling rate and has prevented our winters from being even more cold"
My head is gonna explode from some of these pronouncements.
@OmSigDAVID,
BUT ... BUT.... BUT....
Irene didn't cause any damage..
If it did then hawkeye would be blowing smoke out his ass.
