American girl in Italy, 60 years later

@DrewDad,

I apologize for including Hingehead in that comment.... He's made it clear that he does not agree with Wandel.

2 Replies

@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

I apologize for including Hingehead in that comment.... He's made it clear that he does not agree with Wandel.

Wrong. He made it clear that "scared shitless" is an exaggeration.

hingehead wrote:

I see now Chai did use the scared shitless phrase - like I said I think that's an exaggeration

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

I apologize for including Hingehead in that comment.... He's made it clear that he does not agree with Wandel.

WOW, the A2K moral purity testing is just as in vogue as it ever was as evidenced by this thread.....

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

Quote:

A wonderful time?

Don't people usually smile when they're enjoying themselves?

This is beginning to border on the ludicrous. What the millisecond of a camera click registers is not always indicative of the actual event.

Clearly, everyone is entitled to an opinion. But here, as is often the case, the facts haven't been generous to a lot of said opinions.

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

WOW, the A2K moral purity testing is just as in vogue as it ever was as evidenced by this thread.....

What purity test? There are lots of people in this thread disagreeing with each other, and each of them is as much a part of A2K as all the others. On the bright side, you just proved you aren't scared shitless, since you're as full of **** as ever.

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Gee, who said we never have any fun around here any more?

Re the picture. I thought it looked staged even before I knew it was a "redo". The picture, notwithstanding, many (most?) women who walk through a similar scene would be at least mildly concerned, particularly in a foreign setting. She wasn't concerned because a) she'd already walked through with her friend and, b) her friend was ahead snapping the picture. There's nothing there that indicates she has nothing to worry about.

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@chai2,

WandelJW said: Hysterical was not a reference to your reaction to the photo.

As far as your reaction to the photo, I criticized your characterization of the woman as "scared shitless" to be an exaggeration.

===================

Quote:

You said, and this is the full post....

I can not match your hysterics or Setanta's hysterics.

Regardless of what you said about my characterization of the woman, you are stating her [sic] I'm involved in some sort of hysterics.

A person, man or woman, in the throes of hysteria or mildly overwrought might completely miss an explanation that someone has just offered them and launch into the tirade of their choice.

Quote:

Which, is false.

How do I know it's false?

Because I said it.

And can you allow that WandelJW might also know it's false because he is also the one who said it?

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@wandeljw,

wandeljw wrote:

I am shocked that you find it shitty and patronizing for me to be concerned about your feelings. I specifically said I was concerned because you may have had a bad experience that the photo reminded you of. Greenwitch stated that many women have had scary experiences with men and this is why they react to the photo in a negative way. That is EXACTLY what my concern was about. Stop twisting my concern into shitty or patronizing.

Doesn't matter if you're shocked or not.

I did find it shitty and patronizing.

I don't believe you are particularly concerned about my feelings anyway.
I feel you put that phrase in there to indicate that if a woman is "damanged" in some way by past experiences they would be prone to feel negative toward the picture.

Women/people who have never had anything "damaging" done to them have every reason to feel the same way.

Please, spare me the sentiment that you were just showing concern. I'm definately not a sentimental person.

Perhaps it has nothing to do with having be "damaged", but being intelligent enough to realize that being leered at, then told "you're making a big deal about it. They probably meant no harm" is telling women, especially young ones, like your Annie, to just put up with it.

Put Annie, or another daughter in that picture wandel, and tell me how you feel about it.
If you have a son, put him in there, changing it around to fit, and tell me what you think.

Greenwitch is so right when she says a lot of men just don't get certain aspects of this.

I remember a long while back, when I first got on OCCOM Bills shitlist. You know how I originally got on there?
Here was Mr. "No woman should be sexually exploited/harrassed/have anything sexual happen to her without her express permission, etc etc"

Yet, one day he was telling with relish a story about working in a restaurant, and how a young woman, barely 18 (so that makes this all ok) who, he thought was accidently on purpose rubbing her breasts up against him whenever she had to pass behind him, and he was getting his little thrill from it. I know there was more to the story, something about him either hoping to find himself in places where she'd have to pass by, or putting himself in such places, etc.

Was she doing it on purpose? Who knows and who cares. If she wants to do that, hey, none of my business.

It was this uber creepy way this guy who pictures himself as some white knight to wounded birds suddenly didn't mind getting horny over something he would have criticized another man over.

He was so explosively defensive it was hilarious.

No one sees themselves as they really are. No one. Yes including me.
However this crap about women shouldn't make such a big thing about this sort of thing is no different telling a black person in another generation to "know their place"

Oh sure, in front of whites, many/most acted like they "knew their place"
Inside they were seething.

I like to be admired. Sometimes I still am. I like it, but at the same time, don't care either way if it happens or not. Never much did care, even decades ago. Because it doesn't indicate a thing about who I am.

A beautiful woman/girl....so what?

I think it would be really cool if our intelligence, compassion, maturity could be photographed and admired.

Now THAT would be something else.

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@chai2,

Quote:

Contrary to what the article tries to dispel, no matter how long I look at this photo, the creepitoid factor remains at 10 on a scale of 1-10.

Yes, 100% contrary to what the individual who was involved in the episode has stated for 60 years.

Quote:

In fact when I actually pay more attention to certain men in the photo, my feelings of violation, being fearful and shamed rises to 14.

And I feel this way despite having glanced at the facts!

Quote:

The first paragraph of the article reads....

A stunning young woman walks down a street in Florence, her head held high. All around, men playfully gawk at her grace and beauty. Just then the camera shutter snaps. "American Girl in Italy" is among the most popular snapshots of all time, and it's turning 60 years old this month.

I see a woman who looks scared shitless and about to break into a run. The guy in the necktie to her left looks like he's grabbing his junk and saying something vile. The one next to him looks like he's already invading her space, and is going to in the next instant step forward and block her way.

I cherry picked the information that would confirm and support my position.

Quote:

On top of all this, they say it wasn't staged.

Yeah, get that. The facts point out clearly that it was staged but hey, why should anyone let that curb an overactive imagination? And why should that stop me from making borderline racist and sexist comments?

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@wandeljw,

Quote:

Wrong. He made it clear that "scared shitless" is an exaggeration.

I did not make it clear that it's an exaggeration - I said 'I think'. It's about my perception, and Chai has every right to have hers. Our tete a tete last night was about your apparent need to discount opinions that weren't yours. Which is fine in a political or religious argument, but a bit nuts when talking about an image's emotional impact.

My basis for thinking 'shitscared' was an exaggeration is if what I was looking at was 'shitscared' what would I call cowering or running away screaming? Merely a matter of degree. Thanks to DrewDad for pointing I out I don't share your perception.

1 Reply

Oy vey.

People who have read the earlier ogling thread know I've liked the photo.

http://able2know.org/topic/9126-10#post-270084

I could be counted as a woman damaged by male abuse in that I was raped in my twenties and it was devastating in many ways that I am not interested in discussing. I didn't go to Mexico (where I was most ogled in my younger life) or Italy, where I wasn't ogled but also didn't see it happening as in the photo'd scenario to other women younger than I was then - until years after my personal hard time from the abuse.

When I did go to Mexico, my first several visits were with my women pals, who called ourselves the salts and peppers, given our heritage characteristics. They had all been there before, and one had family that hosted us, when we visited Tijuana. Every one of us was set up with a proper escort so that we wouldn't be alone when we went to a bar/music place. My escort was thirteen and spoke no english, and me, especially back then, very little spanish, but it was somehow "right" for him to be there in that situation in that year.

Anyway, I guess I absorbed it from my girlfriends that the ogling was cultural, and not to get too, um, overheated about it. I suppose freaked would be the word now. Those women friends were not from the caves, they are all describable as feminists in practical terms.

I keep reading on this thread that 'most women' would feel this, do think this, and so on. I don't know the numbers of women who think about this photo as creepy and those who don't. I'd be interested, but it would be a hard survey to do, as those surveyed might represent cultural clusters.

I don't think your average cultural ogling is a delight, but I am not also creeped out by it. It is what it is - I'd say ******* dumb, but, that's not my culture. Matters going past cultural ogling are different and rightfully scary.

Equating the two seems questionable to me.

But, as has been said on this thread, we all have our own responses and I'm not trying to change anyone's mind here.

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@hingehead,

hingehead wrote:

Quote:
Wrong. He made it clear that "scared shitless" is an exaggeration.

I did not make it clear that it's an exaggeration - I said 'I think'. It's about my perception, and Chai has every right to have hers. Our tete a tete last night was about your apparent need to discount opinions that weren't yours. Which is fine in a political or religious argument, but a bit nuts when talking about an image's emotional impact.

My basis for thinking 'shitscared' was an exaggeration is if what I was looking at was 'shitscared' what would I call cowering or running away screaming? Merely a matter of degree. Thanks to DrewDad for pointing I out I don't share your perception.

These are the posts where I "mistakenly" thought you agreed with me:

wandeljw wrote:

I would not characterize it as happy or carefree. That would be an exagerration. It is also an exagerration to say scared shitless.

hingehead wrote:

It might be an exaggeration if anyone said it but as far as I'm aware no-one has (certainly I've never said scared shitless) - my whole point is trying to make you see why I get a sense of creepiness and not have you tell me I'm wrong for thinking that because it's 'not the artists intention'.

wandeljw wrote:

Did you read Chai's initial comments?

hingehead wrote:

I see now Chai did use the scared shitless phrase - like I said I think that's an exaggeration

1 Reply

@ossobuco,

I suppose I should add that I've been a female architect not all that early, but sort of early in the move of women into professions, in the world of construction. Lot of stuff goes on there, famously with construction workers whistling, et al.

Oh, the noise! the people!

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@wandeljw,

wandeljw wrote:

hingehead wrote:
I see now Chai did use the scared shitless phrase - like I said I think that's an exaggeration

That was a very long post to refute me by agreeing with me. Weird.

1 Reply

@ossobuco,

ossobuco wrote:

I don't think your average cultural ogling is a delight, but I am not also creeped out by it. It is what it is - I'd say ******* dumb, but, that's not my culture. Matters going past cultural ogling are different and rightfully scary.

Who is saying the picture can't be several things at the same time?

If it were a picture of a child with a butterfly, it could be called delightful, charming, calming, etc.

This picture can be creeping, ******* dumb, etc. all at the same time, as viewed by individuals.

1 Reply

@chai2,

Sure.

But knives are out about who said what when and why and whether their posts got to hysteric levels - supercharged in some way -

funny in itself, as that's a common a2k mode, done at some point by many of us worth our salt, though most of us not often. We could probably have a contest for hysteric post of the week by posters, and award, what...

well, I'll leave that concept to others

I'm reminded of a strange thing between my mother and me.. I was probably nineteen, still living at home to go to school. Me - to explain right away, in the wrong.
I had read somewhere that if you had tired eyes, putting wet teabags over them was useful. Neither of us had a clue I'd have future eye mishugas. My teabags dropped to the pillow and stained it. My mother was beside herself - right there an uncommon thing, that probably being her final straw. I don't quite remember the sequence, important, but in any case, against me. I said something in self defense. She said God damn you. That was not only a first but almost unbelievable. I squawked back that she shouldn't make god hate me. She slapped me. She had only done that once before in my whole life.

Fifty years later, I recognize her in distress. Earlier than fifty years, but it's 50 now.

I had used the God damn you to make her feel guilty. I knew it at the time - I remember knowing it.

I've said in a few places on a2k that I don't like manipulation, but the core of that is that I fear doing that myself.

What has this to do with the thread -

lots of spinning going on.

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@hingehead,

hingehead wrote:

wandeljw wrote:
hingehead wrote:
I see now Chai did use the scared shitless phrase - like I said I think that's an exaggeration

That was a very long post to refute me by agreeing with me. Weird.

Weird indeed. I misinterpreted "I think."

2 Replies

@wandeljw,

Quote:

Weird indeed. I misinterpreted "I think."

'I THINK' is not 'IT IS' - I have always thought you were a reasonably intelligent guy. Are you wilfully being obtuse or have you not understood the point I've been trying to get across since the start? That it's open to interpretation. That you can't say that an interpretation isn't valid - which is the line you took. I'm starting to think Chai's earlier assessment of your debating technique might be accurate.

1 Reply

@hingehead,

hingehead wrote:

Quote:
Weird indeed. I misinterpreted "I think."

'I THINK' is not 'IT IS' - I have always thought you were a reasonably intelligent guy. Are you wilfully being obtuse or have you not understood the point I've been trying to get across since the start? That it's open to interpretation. That you can't say that an interpretation isn't valid - which is the line you took. I'm starting to think Chai's earlier assessment of your debating technique might be accurate.

I am not willfully being obtuse. "Scared shitless" either is an exagerration or it is not an exagerration. I didn't realize that you were waffling. Chai's assessment of me also applies to you.

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@wandeljw,

Quote:

"Scared shitless" either is an exagerration or it is not an exagerration

Oh great, a concrete thinker. Binary hell. Bye.

1 Reply

American girl in Italy, 60 years later

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