Ogling

Round and round we go...

Did anyone catch this? I rather liked it:



I think it explains some of the defensiveness, from both perspectives.

Not to appreciate beauty is equal to insulting beauty !

Then how come there aren't any "Yo mama's so pretty..." jokes?

Craven; very impressed with your new avatar; the "grate" is so "in"!
(you wouldn't be trying to in"grate"iate yourself, would you?)

Somewhat in line with codeburg's observations, I would point out, once again, that most of the activities of the "human" animal hark back to much earlier times; the mating "game" for our prehistoric ancestors very much involved overt displays, both of noticing another of the local "available" stock, and a swaggering of one's own attributes, in order to join the "dance" and be very much "in the running".
Advertising back then held little subtlety, and was engaged in for very specific purposes. And, I might add, "only" for those circumstances; at other times, and for other purposes, a great deal of care was taken "not" to stand out, in order to avoid being singled out in a crowd by, say, a sabre tooth, or equivalent!
I very much doubt that many "presentations" where denounced as unsolicited, or demeaning; these methods where used, because they worked, and looking at the population of this globe today, I'd say they worked only too well.
Civilization, however, is not about our animal instincts, it is about becoming more valuable to one another, by being more considerate of feelings, and sensitivities, and adding that missing "subtlety" to the daily congress of interpersonnal relations.
To quote Code...;

"The key is to learn how to control it, and be able to turn it on or off."

The scene from the photo, was a "natural" scene in a native village thousands of years ago, except there would have been very little clothing being worn, the buildings lining the street would have been considerably less sophisticated, and the scooter would have been a mule (but the rider still an ass!).

Who are we to be criticizing what was acceptable hundreds of thousands of years ago; but then, who are we to be "still" acting the same way today.

Hee hee!



Well said!

nimh, as I just read this on another forum and thought of your questions/ points:



She doesn't offer a cite, but that's an interesting concept. (This may be a whole 'NOTHER can of worms, but what the hell.)

Soz;
on this subject, I would suggest the Italian movie "Malena".
An emotional plunge set in second WW Italy, under the Nazi regime, recounting one small town's "dealing" with women who were forced into consorting with the occupiers.

the grate thing isn't that rare.
you can walk over subway grates a thousand times with no problem, and then poooooooof. no biggie. most people wear underwear.

Moral: 'Semper ubi sub ubi'

Hey Deb, that wasnt me. It was another man again, making some further related points ... ;-)



Yeh, I think thats a very interesting concept to think about ... I mean, ultimately we're talking about the "ogling" as a control issue - a way in which men (try to) control women, but simultaneously used by (some) women as an opportunity to .. whatever. These control mechanisms are very multipolar: women-women, women-men, men-women, even men-men ("dont be a pussy" -> act along in the game).

The defensiveness comes I think from attempts to make it into anything as clearly delineated and easily pigeonholable in terms of good/bad as a "gender oppression" thing - when we know that so much else is going on in there as well - that there are women who ... and women who ... each other - et cetera.

Of course, this is relative again - I'm aware that much of the female circumcision thing in Somalia/Ethiopia, for example, is perpetuated by the social pressure/control of mothers, grandmothers and sisters - yet that in the end that doesnt make it any less a gender oppression thing on the bottom line.

Right.

Part of what I've been getting at about defensiveness is that it goes both ways -- guys get defensive about being pigeonholed, women get defensive about being told they are "too sensitive."

Ahhhh, I have always liked that photo. Sorry!

I gather from the piece sozobe quoted that it was staged only in that the guys on the cycle were not to look at the camera. Some of the people in the background are not looking at the woman. Some seem to be looking just appreciatively. One or two seem to be total jerks, oglers of the first order.

As far as being all men, I have seen spaces in italy with all men; I was once timid about crossing the main piazza in Bologna in front of the huge San Petronio church because...it was all men in it....guys in grey overcoats milling about one March morning.

Not that I like ogling....but I am just not as upset about it as many here of either gender. It is mostly cultural...we have many cultures in the US too. For example, I would think the area in San Fernando Valley that Sozobe found ogling rampant in would be one of the areas heavily populated by latinos, some new in the country. Not to presume.

Mexico is where I was most ogled...um, oglified. Yes, I was a tourist. Yes, it is objectifying, separating the watched from the watcher more than usual. It didn't scare me. Stalking scares me, real harrassment scares me, abuse scares me. I don't think a little goofy ogling means the man objectifies women in his life, or...not necessarily. I think it is fairly adolescent behavior sometimes seen in postadolescents.

As to hot pants, miniskirts, responsibility..I, who once wore hot pants to work at the lab, though not as short as that in the Times link- as did many other techs at that time - cringe now that I did that. OK, we had lab coats, but didn't have those on all day. I agree it is not the woman who wears hot pants' fault for a rape, or other molestation, and is not 'asking for it'. But it was surely inappropriate, even dumb. I question miniskirts and cut off tube tops at school, soz, not just the orthodontist's, as much as I question my own shorts-wearing to work.

Midriff baring is all the rage in my town right now, as when it gets even a little bit warm here, say 62, people pull out their bermuda shorts and dream of Hawaii. When it gets in the 70's, people are a little bananas with the sunshine.
So on Saturday, when the oldtown had a street fair during the day, a good portion of the women, of all sizes, had bare midriffs. Can't say I noticed much ogling going on. Maybe a few winces. But this brings up that some fraction of ogling may be a comment on how rare something is to see....thus the increase with tourists in some places.

As for italian men..this picture was in '51. I didn't go there until '88 and was nearly fifty. Nobody was ogling me, with or without my husband there, but I also didn't see scenes like this happen to other women. But pinching and all that happened to my friends who went there in '66. I did feel something else. I felt noticed by men there when I entered rooms, appreciated for existing, if only by some slight adjustment, some turn of head, slight stop to look, some apparent gain in pleasant ions in the room. Even the last time I went, in 1999. Older women are included in the appreciation. Here, on the other hand, a certain writing off seems to happen. Well, that is another whole subject.

Italians have a passeggiata, much as the Mexican towns do, a stroll of the populace, a bit of meeting and greeting and parading, before the evening repast. They like looking at each other, and to have "bella figura", a good presentation, is very important to them. To have brutto figura, for example, to be obviously intoxicated, is not good. All part of the culture. I don't think the ogling, though objectifying, is actually meant as an insult.

Stop being so damn sensitive.

Male chauvinist pig.

Really nice post, Osso.

Hmm, I wonder what Paola would say about this. I have just visited Italy, but she knows it very well, might or might not agree with me.

Speaking of ogling, when is Gautam coming to T.O. so he can attend the weekly Thursday night "Best Chest" contest at Woody's in the gay village? You'd like it here G!

Hey! I am not chauvinist!

That bit I said about pleasant ions in the room as women come in and men notice is familiar, as I reread. I have either written that before, or I have read someone else saying that.

Very funny, this thing a2k has going with banner ads reflecting something on the topic...I just saw the ad for bermuda shorts!

Ooh, someone's sensitive...

(I know.)

Anyone want to take a crack at defining "ogling?" I basically exclude the pleasant attention kind of thing, but the "the same action is pleasant in one situation and unpleasant in another, how're you supposed to tell??" complaint is a valid one.

Merriam-Webster:

Main Entry: 1ogle
Pronunciation: 'O-g&l also 'ä-
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): ogled; ogling /-g(&-)li[ng]/
Etymology: probably from Low German oegeln, from oog eye; akin to Old High German ouga eye -- more at EYE
Date: 1682
intransitive senses : to glance with amorous invitation or challenge
transitive senses
1 : to eye amorously or provocatively
2 : to look at especially with greedy or interested attention
- ogler /-g(&-)l&r/ noun

btw that explains why Thomas spelled it "oogle".

If we decide that "ogling" is not actually the right word for what me, dlowan, and a few others are talking about, what IS the right word?

"Mad Dogging"