American girl in Italy, 60 years later

@chai2,

I think you should go with your gut, Chai. You should report those men to the police. Some of them might still be alive and given how clear it is that they may well be/may well have been potential rapists - well, a good citizen like you just can't be too careful.

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@wandeljw,

Quote:

The argument would go like this, if it is staged, the intent of the photographer and model becomes a factor. If a viewer reacts in a way that is different than what the photographer intended, the viewer's interpretation would more likely be a mistaken interpretation.

That doesn't make sense in a lot ways JW - you are in effect saying that intent discounts result. So attempted murder isn't a crime (sorry, I just did reducto ad absurdem).

I'm not sure you can have a 'mistaken' interpretation of an image - isn't that the whole point of artistic appreciation? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that? I'm not casting judgement on the image or the photographer, all I am saying is the image is creepy and filled with some veiled semi-threat in my opinion. To argue against that opinion on the grounds of artistic intent, or even temporal context is well, a meaningless exercise. It's what I get viewing the image.

It's like saying people shouldn't have an artistic reaction to Da Vinci's Last Supper unless they understand the message Da Vinci was trying to get across and they know what it was like to live in renaissance Italy.

Time to throw out my indigenous art collection I guess.

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@hingehead,

I simply do not believe that all interpretations are of equal value. The intent of the artist is certainly worthy of consideration.

1 Reply

@hingehead,

Quote:

I'm not sure you can have a 'mistaken' interpretation of an image - isn't that the whole point of artistic appreciation? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that?

I think we had a whole bunch of them on this picture, HH. The question wasn't an issue of beauty.

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@wandeljw,

Quote:

I simply do not believe that all interpretations are of equal value. The intent of the artist is certainly worthy of consideration.

Not denying that, but that is intimately entwined with how well the artist translates that intention. If a communication fails is it the fault of the sender or receiver? In art it's an irrelevance in my view. My contention is that telling people who see creepiness that they are wrong is wrong.

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@chai2,

What I notice is that it appears that no one is walking towards her, no one is reaching out trying to touch her. I get respectful admiration, not creep. She is not scared, she is "Ya I am sexy, ain't no big deal".

1 Reply

@JTT,

Quote:

The question wasn't an issue of beauty.

Substitute beauty with impact - I used the cliche in hope of getting my point across without writing a thesis.

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

What I notice is that it appears that no one is walking towards her, no one is reaching out trying to touch her. I get respectful admiration, not creep. She is not scared, she is "Ya I am sexy, ain't no big deal".

I guess you don't see the guy who is standing directly in her path? Respectful admiration? C'mon hawkeye some of those guys are practically drooling. No wonder you have some of the views of women you have. That is not a confident look on that woman. Not in my opinion.

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@Arella Mae,

Quote:

I guess you don't see the guy who is standing directly in her path?

That is an assumption on your part. Maybe she is crossing the street...maybe they know this girl and know that she will be crossing the street so what looks to you like blocking her way is in fact leaving open her path.

Re confidence...back in the day women were not supposed to display masculine confidence like today, I think her look is of supreme feminine confidence of the time.

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@hawkeye10,

Considering she is obviously at the corner (note the rounded brick) one of two things happen: 1. She turns and crosses the street; or 2. she takes one more step and she will be dancing with the guy in front of her.

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@hingehead,

hingehead wrote:

Quote:
I simply do not believe that all interpretations are of equal value. The intent of the artist is certainly worthy of consideration.

Not denying that, but that is intimately entwined with how well the artist translates that intention. If a communication fails is it the fault of the sender or receiver? In art it's an irrelevance in my view. My contention is that telling people who see creepiness that they are wrong is wrong.

The photographer intended a slice of life depiction of 1950's Italy. A creepiness interpretation imposes elements that only exist in the mind of some viewers, not most viewers.

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@wandeljw,

Quote:

A creepiness interpretation imposes elements that only exist in the mind of some viewers, not most viewers.

Can you prove that? Sound like a sweeping baseless statement to me. Even if it's true so what? The minority interpretation is the wrong one? I think you're lacking intellectual rigour on this one JW. It's an image - all interpretation is by nature individual. Or are you advocating for wikiality?

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@wandeljw,

I just reread your reply, this struck me

Quote:

The photographer intended a slice of life depiction of 1950's Italy

How does either interpretation contradict that intention? A lone woman can be expect to be ogled by twelve men (give or take). She can be haughty or freaked out without contradicting the photographer's intention as you state it.

1 Reply

@hingehead,

The slice of life interpretation does not impose elements that come from a peculiar bias.

(sorry for taking a "clinical" rather than emotional view)

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@wandeljw,

It occurred to me that Chai and Arella's reactions may be connected to unfortunate personal experiences in their own past. I do not want to devalue their honest personal feelings.

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@wandeljw,

Again it's my personal reaction but I find that remark condescending. I actually think the reverse is true, that a number of posters here are in denial of the implicit creepiness of that photo. I have to say in my case I had never seen this photo before (I know now it's iconic in the US, but I have lived my life somewhere very else).

My reaction that it is creepy was my first reaction the first time I had ever seen it without reading the background - perhaps it's harder for people who have history with the picture to see anything other than a celebration of american femininity triumphing over mediterranean lotharios. Beats me.

But look at her face without context and tell me she is happy and carefree.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-nzlGEUb2SP0/Tk-8O_VnkHI/AAAAAAAAAmk/NjNdOrVsvfU/s800/ni_z1151.jpg

One more time, look closely....

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-l6vYiKle4B0/Tk-98UqfltI/AAAAAAAAAmo/t9Agk_dAvd8/s800/ni_z1151a.jpg

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@hingehead,

I would not characterize it as happy or carefree. That would be an exagerration. It is also an exagerration to say scared shitless.

(It is not necessary to give your opinion on my remark about Chai and Arella having honest feelings. Chai and Arella can speak for themselves on that.)

1 Reply

@wandeljw,

Quote:

I would not characterize it as happy or carefree. That would be an exagerration. It is also an exagerration to say scared shitless.

It might be an exaggeration if anyone said it but as far as I'm aware no-one has (certainly I've never said scared shitless) - my whole point is trying to make you see why I get a sense of creepiness and not have you tell me I'm wrong for thinking that because it's 'not the artists intention'.

Quote:

(It is not necessary to give your opinion on my remark about Chai and Arella having honest feelings. Chai and Arella can speak for themselves on that.)

Absolutely not necessary (nothing on A2K is) but not illegal or even in poor taste/abusive. As I said, it's my opinion - and I'm sure you meant it with the best of intentions but I read it as condescending - as in 'you must be damaged by some past experience to think a picture of a women with that expression, alone with a dozen men staring at her is in anyway creepy'.

g'night JW - I'm very tired.

1 Reply

@hingehead,

Quote:

It might be an exaggeration if anyone said it but as far as I'm aware no-one has (certainly I've never said scared shitless)

Did you read Chai's initial comments?

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@wandeljw,

Only the first couple of paras and then saw Soz's link to the 2003 thread and Craven's unexpected take on it as a slander against Italy and men in general...

I see now Chai did use the scared shitless phrase - like I said I think that's an exaggeration - but that woman does not appear comfortable to my eyes. I know it was staged and she was under no threat - I'm talking visual impact of the image without context - that's all I've ever been talking about.

Nighty night!

1 Reply

American girl in Italy, 60 years later

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