American girl in Italy, 60 years later

@Mame,

Mame wrote:

DD thinks it has to be an outright insult ("you're a moron") in order for it to be insulting or offensive, not even realizing his righteous judgements can be (and often are) just as abusive. And he's the one concerned with psychological validation? (I have to laugh at that)

<sigh>
Do you see how offensive your statement is right there?

I'm quite aware that people can take things as insulting or offensive without it being a direct insult.

Thus, my pointing out that people were insulted and offended by Wandel's statements (long before he called me a ******* moron).

Evidence, if you care to accept it, that what you just stated is a lie and a defamation.

I won't hold my breath for an apology, though.

1 Reply

@Mame,

Nods to mame, which will probably get me in hot water, but **** it.

0 Replies

@Mame,

Mame,

Read my first post in this thread. The one where I say, "you come across as."

That's a subjective judgement. I'm telling someone how I see it.

Many other times, I specify "in my opinion." Again, telling someone how I see it.

If you disagree, then that's fine. You're welcome to your opinion, and we may just have to agree to disagree.

I don't believe I've ever claimed to be infallible, though.

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@DrewDad,

La la la la.
You have made this whole thread about you, Drew Dad.
Amusing to watch you scold Mame.

1 Reply

@ossobuco,

Well, you're entitled to your opinion.

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@DrewDad,

You can couch **** all you want in "in my opinion", "you seem you", "it appears that"... but it's still ****. And you're so righteous about it.

You decided that wandel made an ERROR and you have harped on him non-stop. In my opinion, you have not once stopped to consider what he said in his defense/explanation/justification. THAT's why I agreed that you were a moron.

Stop. Look. Listen. You just judged him according to YOUR rules, not HIS, right out of the gate. First rule of understanding people - come at the issue from their perspective. You not only did not do that, you set about to hound him to the point that he called you an f'ing moron. That is not like him. Did you ever stop to contemplate that what he said he was doing was what he was actually doing? That his intention was clean?

I think not. You've been PC-brainwashed or Feminine-brainwashed or something - all this invalidating crap - give me a break. You sound like a social worker who lives by the new book. I'm really surprised you haven't mentioned all the 'boundaries' wandel has breached (sarcasm).

In short, you and Set (and a few others) have ascribed all the crap to him - he responded in kind when he was deluged and fed up - a completely normal human response.

So, go back and read what you guys wrote to him and see if you were really open-minded and listening. I say you weren't. You both just over-reacted and stuck to your platform.

1 Reply

@Mame,

1. He pulled his little stunt in public, so yes, he gets to be judged by my rules. And Set's. And Hingehead's. And Chai's. And yours. And Osso's. Everyone's, in fact.

2. Intent can be a mitigating factor, but it does not eliminate a person's responsibility. Whatever his intent was, people were still insulted and offended.

3. He continued to be an ass about it, so I continued to point out when he was being an ass. If the first comment was a mistake, how about the fifth time he accused someone of being in hysterics? Wandel is responsible for his part in escalating the situation.

4. If you want to believe that I'm a big bully and that Wandel's a poor little boy being picked on, then go ahead and believe it. I happen to disagree. If Wandel misbehaves in public, he should be ready to take his lumps.

5. Cursing at me is abuse. Calling what I say "****" is abuse. I don't know if you care or not, but that doesn't change the underlying reality of it.

2 Replies

@DrewDad,

Sorry, but snort.
Don't pull me into your viewpoint.
I generally respect you, but not this time.

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The funniest thing about this highly entertaining thread is that no one who has expressed an opinion about wandeljw's statement has actually disagreed with it. Does anyone, after all, contend that a person's interpretation of a piece of art cannot be informed by that person's own experiences?

1 Reply

@Mame,

Quote:

Actually, JTT, it was just immature,

I can buy that.

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@joefromchicago,

Actually that's where the mess (from my point of view) started on page 1 of this thread.

jw apparently believes that the artist's intent means more than what any viewer's could. He BEGAN by discounting the opinions held by viewers of art.

3 Replies

@DrewDad,

Quote:

Thus, my pointing out that people were insulted and offended by Wandel's statements

We're fully aware of that. People got hysterical after jumping to unwarranted conclusions.

Quote:

Evidence, if you care to accept it, that what you just stated is a lie and a defamation.

You haven't been willing to go anywhere near the evidence, as Mame, Joe, and I have pointed out numerous times.

Quote:

I won't hold my breath for an apology, though.

I kinda wish you would.

[I know, I know, not that helpful]

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@ehBeth,

ehBeth wrote:

Actually that's where the mess (from my point of view) started on page 1 of this thread.

jw apparently believes that the artist's intent means more than what any viewer's could. He BEGAN by discounting the opinions held by viewers of art.

Here is that post. Hingehead and I were discussing the significance of pointing out that the photograph was staged:

wandeljw wrote:

hingehead wrote:
Wouldn't be the first time that a viewer got something other than the artists intention. It seemed that several on this discussion and the much earlier one we're saying somehow that because it was staged it wasn't creepy. That argument doesn't fly for me.

The argument would go like this, if it is staged, the intent of the photographer and model becomes a factor. If a viewer reacts in a way that is different than what the photographer intended, the viewer's interpretation would more likely be a mistaken interpretation.

3 Replies

@DrewDad,

Quote:

If the first comment was a mistake, how about the fifth time he accused someone of being in hysterics?

Chai's reaction was hysterical from the outset. Setanta's take on Wandel's comment was hysterical from the outset. You leapt in with your own set of hysterics.

Quote:

Wandel is responsible for his part in escalating the situation.

He is, as am I, as is Joe and Mame, even Osso, but had you guys looked at the facts instead of sticking to your inaccurate take of what actually transpired, it could have been very different.

Why not do that, DD? Look at how you and Setanta and Chai responded every time someone pointed out the facts.

Quote:

4. If you want to believe that I'm a big bully and that Wandel's a poor little boy being picked on, then go ahead and believe it. I happen to disagree. If Wandel misbehaves in public, he should be ready to take his lumps.

It would help if the facts were on your side. Your deep aversion to them illustrates that they are not.

Quote:

5. Cursing at me is abuse. Calling what I say "****" is abuse. I don't know if you care or not, but that doesn't change the underlying reality of it.

You deserve it in this thread. Again, your unwillingness to address the fact situation illustrates that what you have said is largely crap/****/crapola/BS.

And what's with this wrapping yourself in the "I'm a saint" mantle . As has been noted, you're hardly above delivering the same yourself. I don't recall the psychobabble pouring out of you at those times.

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@wandeljw,

Quote:

The argument would go like this, if it is staged, the intent of the photographer and model becomes a factor. If a viewer reacts in a way that is different than what the photographer intended, the viewer's interpretation would more likely be a mistaken interpretation.

Why does the viewer's interpretation have to be the one that is mistaken? If the photographer and model do not convey their intent CLEARLY in the photograph how can it be the viewer's mistake? I'm not sure that was your quote. I'm having trouble keeping up. Laughing

2 Replies

@ehBeth,

Quote:

He BEGAN by discounting the opinions held by viewers of art.

I think that, in the interests of full disclosure, you should state what it is that Wandel did that caused you to get up and walk away from the computer, Beth.

I read page 1. Wandel was a saint.

Is this the offending passage?

Quote:

The argument would go like this, if it is staged, the intent of the photographer and model becomes a factor. If a viewer reacts in a way that is different than what the photographer intended, the viewer's interpretation would more likely be a mistaken interpretation.

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@wandeljw,

Yes. I know. That is what I am referring to as "the start of the mess".

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@Arella Mae,

Arella Mae wrote:

Why does the viewer's interpretation have to be the one that is mistaken? If the photographer and model do not convey their intent CLEARLY in the photograph how can it be the viewer's mistake? I'm not sure that was your quote. I'm having trouble keeping up.

Yup. If my intent is to throw a strike, but I end up hitting the batter, the batter still gets a walk.....

0 Replies

@ehBeth,

ehBeth wrote:

jw apparently believes that the artist's intent means more than what any viewer's could. He BEGAN by discounting the opinions held by viewers of art.

Yet another mischaracterization of the evidence.

1 Reply

@wandeljw,

That did not appear to be a discussion. That appeared to be HH offering opinions and you stating the facts. The problem being that "the facts" were your opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.

Shortly thereafter the thread took a turn

http://able2know.org/topic/176187-2#post-4705840

that felt quite familiar to me

http://able2know.org/topic/164540-123#post-4538497

Not exactly the same, but familiar enough. Others disagree with you - they must be emotional or "stirred up" while you remain clinical.

I didn't buy it earlier this year, I'm not buying it now.

1 Reply

American girl in Italy, 60 years later

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