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Virginity is not an obligation

 
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2004 06:02 pm
fullofmalarkey9 wrote:
(Note, I know my views and motives are slightly changing throughout this thread. Please don't view it as being inconsistent, more that I'm revising/learning/changing my views along the way.)


That's cool!

fom wrote:
Is a relationship incomplete without sex? To me it seems like y'all are saying the only way to fully understand a relationships dynamics is to have sex. Is that a correct deduction?


If you plan to be celibate for the rest of your life with that partner, no, it's not the only way. But what you are talking about has been no sex before marriage, than sex after. A journey that goes something like: meet---> talk ---> fall in love ---> get married --> have sex.

People do this -- they get married first, and then have sex for the first time. But there is this big giant unknown about sexual compatibility. As others have said, I have been with people I really, truly loved, while the sex was... eh. I would be quite panicky if after say a month of attempts, the sex with the person I had just committed to spending the rest of my life with was... eh.
0 Replies
 
fullofmalarkey9
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2004 06:07 pm
Portal Star wrote:
All this talk about sharing every single experience is kind of creepy. You need to be a solid, distinct individual to have a good relationship. You do not become one with your partner, seeing out of the same eyes. You two distinct individuals who become partners.

I had the same conversation with a girl about a year ago. She said that people are half circles with distinctions on the smooth ends. And when you find the right person, it's like the two half circles coming together to be a whole circle. Obviously this is ridiculous, so I explained that it should be two whole circles overlapping or however you want to put it.

And I by no means said you should spend every waking moment or thought together. I did, however, say that if this is the most important person in your life and if sex is the most intimate action, it seems fitting that you do share that experience solely with that person. In addition, doing something because you care about someone else doesn't mean that you aren't a whole person, not only that but in the previous message I posted I talked about how it didn't bother me that my wife wasn't a virgin so long as should could reason her actions to some degree.
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2004 06:08 pm
I think that if someone is a virgin, marries and has "eh" sex, they may never know the difference as long as they stay monogamous. What would they have to compare it too? As long as Malarkey finds a girl who is also a virgin, even if their sex life is not that great, neither one will ever know, right?

Good plan, Malarkey. Just make sure you marry a virgin.
0 Replies
 
Portal Star
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2004 06:18 pm
Piffka wrote:
I think that if someone is a virgin, marries and has "eh" sex, they may never know the difference as long as they stay monogamous. What would they have to compare it too? As long as Malarkey finds a girl who is also a virgin, even if their sex life is not that great, neither one will ever know, right?

Good plan, Malarkey. Just make sure you marry a virgin.


haha, that did occur to me. But maybe it is to some people's best interests to marry as virgins for the same reasons!

"not only that but in the previous message I posted I talked about how it didn't bother me that my wife wasn't a virgin so long as should could reason her actions to some degree."

malarky - you mentioned that you would feel dishonest if you didn't go over.... every...past.....sexual...experience..... And you made it sound like that's what you would make your poor wife do, too! As if she were admitting each of them as sins to you and then you would have to forgive, like confessing to a priest then having to count the rosary beads. (And a jealous priest at that!) that is no way to start an equal and loving sexual relationship.
0 Replies
 
fullofmalarkey9
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2004 06:19 pm
I think this thread is on its last legs but I would like to ask y'all to comment on one last thing. What do you think about the Spanish example? Does it accurately represent the choice of yes, or no to sex before marriage? What do you think about it? I thought it was good, but I also at one point thought the opening argument I had was good so your insight will help.
0 Replies
 
Portal Star
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2004 06:22 pm
YOu seem to really like using half-assed analogies... Going outside in the cold... Half circles and whole circles... Spanish....

Why don't you try to learn about people as people?
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2004 06:24 pm
He he, "half-assed" is nothing if not a half-assed analogy. Was that on purpose?
0 Replies
 
Portal Star
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2004 06:25 pm
Um... no. But I'll pretend it was.
0 Replies
 
Portal Star
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2004 06:28 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
Sigh, this thread is making me want to revive my old T-Shirt.

It read "Virginity is a disease, get your vaccinations here" and had an arrow.. nemind, it was silly but so is this obsession.


I was at a movie the other day, and there was this overwieght old man with a grin on his face, a jaunty cap, and a t-shirt that read "will work for head." Now, I thought to myself, what kind of person is this, and where did he come from?
now I know. It was a relation of our posting buddy, craven.

Malarky - how do you feel about sex with a partner that is not intercourse? A shared sexual experience that is not directly copulation. That may be viable way for you to engage in exclusive relationships and still abstain.
0 Replies
 
fullofmalarkey9
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2004 06:34 pm
What's wrong with analogies? How was my Spanish analogy bad?

To me the point of analogies is to provide a consistency of thinking. If there are two situations that are alike, I'd like to know why you would choose one thing over the next. I think the Spanish example covers just about everything that virginity does, which is why I like it.
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2004 06:37 pm
The Spanish analogy wasn't good because they could easily continue to converse in Spanish... one will undoubtedly learn faster than the other anyway. The difference in ability is not an insurmountable problem.

Here's an anology that is (only) slightly less than half-assed.

Say two people want to go skiing together and learn at the same time so that they stay at the same level.

If Joe learns how to ski too soon, then Jenny may be left on the bunny slopes, and vice versa.

If Joe learns first and falls breaking his leg, then they may never be able to ski together.

If Jenny learns first and falls in love with her instructor, then Joe is left out in the cold.

Therefore, they should wait and learn how to ski together.
0 Replies
 
fullofmalarkey9
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2004 06:40 pm
Piffka,

It doesn't matter if one learns faster in than the other. The point is not to be on the same level all the time.

The point was to show that if they waited they would both experience each others learning progress personally. Being able to see the strides the person takes is the purpose.

Piffka wrote:
The difference in ability is not an insurmountable problem.

Exactly, just like if a virgin married a non-virgin the difference would not be insurmountable.
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2004 06:47 pm
Please... I think you should stay a virgin. Just read the Kama sutra before you get married, OK?
0 Replies
 
Portal Star
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2004 06:53 pm
fullofmalarkey9 wrote:
What's wrong with analogies? How was my Spanish analogy bad?

To me the point of analogies is to provide a consistency of thinking. If there are two situations that are alike, I'd like to know why you would choose one thing over the next. I think the Spanish example covers just about everything that virginity does, which is why I like it.


Analogies are there to help you understand a situation. You would use an analogy for somthing you don't understand, or somthing that the analogy would help you comprehend.

But when you throw out analogies that are not well developed, unneccesary, and in multitudes, then expect people to respond to every one - that is silly.

I know you have not had sex, but you do not need to use only analogies in order to talk about it. You could say what you want to much more simply and easily, without drawing out the conversation unnecessarily.

In short, use analogies where they make your argument clearer and simpler.

For example, if you wanted to explain to a farmer how a piston works, you could use the analogy -
It is like the way the butter is churned.

If a city kid wanted to know how to milk a cow, and didn't know, you could describe it as
being like water filling a glove with a hole in the tip of the finger.

These would be useful for illustrating a point. Your analogies are undeveloped, flawed, and unnessesary inertions into the conversation that do not help us understand you.
------

Please address the issue that I mentioned earlier - of other kinds of two partner sex. Also adress the issue of having to "forgive" your wife by making her explain all her previous "transgressions."

I think that you don't know about sex, which is fine.
But you also don't know about relationships, and presume to. You can have relationships without sex, so I reccomend you look into those. Human relationships can be very fulfilling.

And I agree with piffka, being a good lover -is- important! It shows you care about the pleasure of your partner. It is my experience that considerate lovers are usually also considerate relationship partners.
It is a journey, and it is an attitude. Being a good lover is less about tricks and experience than you would think (although those certainly don't hurt) and more about an attitude of comfort, respect, and caring. You will -want- to read up on things, because you can make your partner feel more pleasure. This is a part of having a good marriage.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2004 07:02 pm
sozobe wrote:
But what you are talking about has been no sex before marriage, than sex after. A journey that goes something like: meet---> talk ---> fall in love ---> get married --> have sex.

People do this -- they get married first, and then have sex for the first time. But there is this big giant unknown about sexual compatibility. As others have said, I have been with people I really, truly loved, while the sex was... eh. I would be quite panicky if after say a month of attempts, the sex with the person I had just committed to spending the rest of my life with was... eh.


<nods> that was what i meant, as well - about how sex may not be the most important thing in the grand scheme of life, but if it doesn't work (even in spite of the best of intentions) - well, perhaps it's sad that it's so, but it can get badly in the way of life-long togetherness ...

Oh, cause, in reply to Piffka, I think you always know - or get to know, at some point in time - if you're unfulfilled ... no matter if you've never been with anyone else. Not that that's the end-all of it - you can always try to do something about it together, but sometimes it's just ... eh. Like Soz sd ;-)

Portal Star wrote:
malarky - you mentioned that you would feel dishonest if you didn't go over.... every...past.....sexual...experience..... And you made it sound like that's what you would make your poor wife do, too! As if she were admitting each of them as sins to you and then you would have to forgive, like confessing to a priest then having to count the rosary beads. (And a jealous priest at that!) that is no way to start an equal and loving sexual relationship.


Gonna just highlight this bit, too, cause again it expresses the sense of alarm I had about your remarks earlier better than the long-winded way I tried to explain it ...

I mean, you probably will want to talk about, you know, the things you lived through before you met the other, once you've discovered each other and want to make up for lost time - thats natural, like you said. But having your partner demand you to divulge all - like it's something you owe it to him to confess - is quite a different beast. That bit was a bit creepy, yeh. 'Member - noone likes to be made to feel dirty - especially if, outside of the particular morals of that person, there's really no reason to feel dirty, at all.

But - you did say that you're also revising/learning/changing your views along the way ... and it seems this was one you already kinda thought again about, so ... <nods>.

And I think it's great, really, I mean, I was rather taken aback by your posts at first, too, but you really do come across as someone who just wants to test his views, bounce 'em off honestly, take some criticism in your stride and adapt some of your points as you go along, while not necessarily giving in ... I dont get that "obsession" thing others mention and make fun about. You're just curious, and wanna discuss your theories like these, just like one would want to discuss some political hypotheses or something.

Perhaps you're a little too theoretical about it all, tho ... :wink:
0 Replies
 
Portal Star
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2004 07:07 pm
nimh wrote:


<nods> that was what i meant, as well - about how sex may not be the most important thing in the grand scheme of life, but if it doesn't work (even in spite of the best of intentions) - well, perhaps it's sad that it's so, but it can get badly in the way of life-long togetherness ...


Yeah! You can work with what you've got, but there's got to be some passion there. Did you know that being physically attracted to your mate is an important part of having healthy children? There are biological reasons why certain people turn others on, and others don't - your gametes are looking for other gametes! Pheremones play a role in this, so does facial symmety and on and on...
A good relationship should have passion (doens't have to be crazy crazy passion, but it has to be there) and respect, and you should enjoy each other's company.

I disagree about knowing whether or not you would know you were fulfilled - sometimes people learn to settle, they just get used to things. I had a relationship I thought I -needed- but after it ended, I realized that person was really just an okay lover, and a jerk besides. I learned that because the people after that I dated were so much nicer!
0 Replies
 
fullofmalarkey9
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2004 07:27 pm
Portal Star wrote:
Malarky - how do you feel about sex with a partner that is not intercourse? A shared sexual experience that is not directly copulation. That may be viable way for you to engage in exclusive relationships and still abstain.


Portal Star, is that the comment you were talking about? I must've missed it, sorry! Are you talking about oral sex and the like above? If so then I'm personally against it. I just don't look at women to give me physical pleasure--even though I'm sure I would like it. I think I do this more so to ensure that the girl realizes that I care about her for who she is and not how she can physically stimulate me.

Portal Star wrote:
And I agree with piffka, being a good lover -is- important! It shows you care about the pleasure of your partner. It is my experience that considerate lovers are usually also considerate relationship partners.

If you have to "show" that you care about your partner through a physical action, is something not alarming about that?

Portal Star wrote:
Human relationships can be very fulfilling.

hahaha... that actually did make me laugh. The irony of you talking about me as if I am less than human isn't actually that funny though.

And if my Spanish analogy is flawed or underdeveloped I can't see it. Can you explain how it fits that criteria?

nihm wrote:
But having your partner demand you to divulge all - like it's something you owe it to him to confess - is quite a different beast.

Whoa there, demand? I would just ask her questions. If she wants to know about my past relationships, that's fine. But I would definitely be interested in what she says about hers, and like I said, I tend to invoke trust in people for some reason, so people tend to tell me things they might not normally tell most.

nihm wrote:
Perhaps you're a little too theoretical about it all, tho ...

I know, I just can't think of any other way to look at it. Seeing as I don't have much personal experience to go off of.

Portal Star wrote:
Did you know that being physically attracted to your mate is an important part of having healthy children?

Really? Is there some sort of study on this? Hmmmmmm, could be interesting.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2004 07:32 pm
fullofmalarkey9 wrote:
Whoa there, demand? I would just ask her questions. If she wants to know about my past relationships, that's fine. But I would definitely be interested in what she says about hers, and like I said, I tend to invoke trust in people for some reason, so people tend to tell me things they might not normally tell most.


And if she didn't want to answer...?
0 Replies
 
Portal Star
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2004 07:44 pm
fullofmalarkey9 wrote:

Portal Star, is that the comment you were talking about? I must've missed it, sorry! Are you talking about oral sex and the like above? If so then I'm personally against it. I just don't look at women to give me physical pleasure--even though I'm sure I would like it. I think I do this more so to ensure that the girl realizes that I care about her for who she is and not how she can physically stimulate me.


Who's to say you couldn't physically stimulate her?

You know women can enjoy touching and have orgasms, right?

fullofmalarkey9 wrote:

If you have to "show" that you care about your partner through a physical action, is something not alarming about that?

You don't have to, you'll want to. It makes them feel good. It is not an obligation - keep in mind that I am emphasizing comfort and respect. If it was expected or forced, that wouldn't be respectful. But if you chose to pleasure the one you love, and they received it, and they pleasured you back, then you are showing that you care about each other's pleasure.

fullofmalarkey9 wrote:

Portal Star wrote:
Human relationships can be very fulfilling.

hahaha... that actually did make me laugh. The irony of you talking about me as if I am less than human isn't actually that funny though.

No, I wasn't I was being biological. We are humans, aren't we? Other animals have sex too. I am very interested in biology and have taken a lot of bio classes. You can't have human relationships with yourself. I'm talking about practice with caring for others and responsibility. You can do this without sex, and many people do.

fullofmalarkey9 wrote:

And if my Spanish analogy is flawed or underdeveloped I can't see it. Can you explain how it fits that criteria?

Someone else addressed it well. I don't feel the need to, but if you bring it up again I will. In essence, it wasn't clear. It could be easily misconstrued, or you could use the same analogy as a reason to support premarital sex.

fullofmalarkey9 wrote:

Portal Star wrote:
Did you know that being physically attracted to your mate is an important part of having healthy children?

Really? Is there some sort of study on this? Hmmmmmm, could be interesting.

[/quote]

Yes, very much so, and I highly reccomend taking a basic biology class if you haven't (your college isn't a christian one, is it? Because their biology isn't good, they don't teach evolution which is the basis of most of modern biological science). This concept is very well established and supported.... Again, this will hurt my fingers if I go into detail so let me see how much you know before I get into it.
How much do you know about Biology?
Evolution?
Genes and mating?
Have you read any books on biology, or taken any classes?
0 Replies
 
fullofmalarkey9
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2004 07:49 pm
Well you could come to a conclusion about her not wanting to answer, but I would probably simply ask her why she doesn't want to answer.

And then I would tread lightly if she answered that with something like, "Because, I just don't want to." Most of the girls I know would tell me since they know they have nothing to worry about if they tell me. But if she responded with that the first thought that would come to my mind would be rape or abuse. Sad Sad Sad
0 Replies
 
 

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