Ceili wrote:Whoo-wee the lack of logic is astounding. Look, if you think about stealing are you a thief? If I refuse to learn spanish, then marry a mexican, have I let down my future husband???
If you only live for your tomorrows, you'll miss out on a whole lot of really good things. What happens the night after you given your gift? I can't imagine you've given it much thought?
I fail to see how your first two questions hold any relevency to the question I posed. I don't even have a clue of how to respond to your first question, so I won't. For your second question, if you expect to marry a mexican at some point in your life, I think a logical first step to meeting your expectation would be to learn some spanish. :wink:
Ceili wrote:What happens the night after you given your gift? I can't imagine you've given it much thought?
Actually, I haven't. Nor do I have every other single day of my life planned out. But I do have ideas for things to do for my friends running through my head at the moment. As well as what I am going to do for spring break, summer, and some things I plan to do in a few years, for your information.
And ossobuco, thank you for posting the site. I bookmarked it and I'll explore it shortly.
Ceili, I enjoy particularly the apropo-ness of your signature right now...
I guess it is possible that two virgins will marry and develop the love they started during their courtship. I am so much aware personally of marriages of no connection from my parents' generation and some of my peers holding your point of view that I cringe now to hear people make this step.
I am older, by a five years or so, than one of the big groups on a2k, the baby boomers. Other big groups are much younger. Actually I love the back and forth. Anyway,
this was expected in my high school, and I was taught that pleasure in marriage is a sin, by Sister Mary Anthony of the Notre Dame nuns specifically. There was a lot of murmuring in that class, junior year it was,
when we were old enough to hear such a frank lecture with short discussion following.
And then the couple lives together, growing in love and grace, until they're eighty or however it goes, holding hands, holding each other in care. And never will either stray, before the marriage, and now I must presume, after one's death, however young, either.
All of my life experience wails now at this idea. Aside from logic, it is a reactive cry of distress, as in open your eyes.
But back to logic.
In a minute, will post to get this started.
ossobuco wrote:Aside from logic, it is a reactive cry of distress, as in open your eyes.
What exactly do you mean there? Could you expand upon that?
To reaffirm, I don't want sex in my premarital relationship, personally, because I don't want either of us to have to wonder what motives bring us together. Those motives being admiration of, and inspiration from, who the other person is inside.
fullofmalarkey9 wrote:ossobuco wrote:I am speaking on a tangent to whether your point of view is mistaken or not and am directing my interest for how you or anyone, write papers that put forth a point of view.
I understand the definition of every word in that sentence, but I'm not sure I fully understand it, but basically I think you are saying that I am terrible at writing opinion papers. Which is true in this case, basically because I have very very very few people to bounce my thoughts off of (who else has an opinion on virginity like this?). Also, since I know I'm a minority on a subject like this, I tend to try to sound ignorantly sure of myself when the truth is that I'm still verifying what I believe as I go along. But certain things (living my life for a girl I may not have met yet) certainly have little chance to change in my mind.
You'll see two types of posts by me here, one nattering at you for your cookoo point of view, in my humble opinion, and the other trying to help you put together a paper on your own point of view, which was, I think, your original question. Sometimes I'll do both things in a post, totally confusing the issue.
Tangent, y'know, a directional line off of a straight line, gads, I haven't taken math in a long time but use it a lot. So when I talk about how to write your paper using good syllogistic reasoning, it is tangential.... to us all arguing about whether you are right or goofy. Oh, by the way, welcome to a2k.
Malarkey, are you saying that we aren't being honest, open or consistent?
You are only showing your incredible inexperience by claiming that sex as an intimate communication is rhetoric. Possibly until you've had some experience it may be hard to understand my explanation, but what I said was not rhetorical. Sex is communication. There is a sympathetic understanding, a bit of teasing, old memories, funny jokes and a host of other physical, mental and emotional interactions. Rhetoric is far, far away. I speak from 28 years of marriage, whereas you speak from what... TV-shows and films?
You may wish that your wife make this "sacrifice" but unless you string it together with a religious commitment, it just doesn't make sense. You are the one who said you thought there were lots of morals surrounding sexuality. Where do think those morals come from?
Gifts that are sacrifices are rarely well-received...
__________
Ceili ...What? Not learning Spanish for that future Mexican husband... good one!
What other motives could there be? Hmmmm, let me think about that.
I think, perhaps it's time to end this thread. I think you've become pre-occupied with sex. I suggest you pick up a book or three. Read biographies, see why men might want a woman, for something aside virginity.
I swear, you've read one too many harlequin romances. You've put a glow on the harsh realities of life and romanticised sex and virtue at the expense of knowledge. Men look for more than the proverbial helpless virgin.
My wail, fom, is an emotional reaction, as I mentioned - instinctive, because I think you are going to run into a lot of hurt and while your comments seem fairly cold to most, I see them as very idealistic and hopeful. You are inexperienced on purpose, and will miss therefore some awful times, but also - probably - some that will give life depth and breadth.
I am not going to try to convince you against your decision. But I hope you start reading literature soon, not as a temptation, not because there are lascivious scenes, although I or most of us here would only wish that you enjoy them, but to gain a sense of the joy as well as the pain of the world around you.
Piffka wrote:You are only showing your incredible inexperience by claiming that sex as an intimate communication is rhetoric. Possibly until you've had some experience it may be hard to understand my explanation, but what I said was not rhetorical. Sex is communication. There is a sympathetic understanding, a bit of teasing, old memories, funny jokes and a host of other physical, mental and emotional interactions. Rhetoric is far, far away. I speak from 28 years of marriage, whereas you speak from what... TV-shows and films?
First off we both speak from our personal experiences on the subject. If for some reason, without knowing a thing about my life, you think your experiences make you a better expert, I would love to see you prove it.
I speak from nothing outside of the information I've gathered through talking to friends and to random people like yourself on the subject. Secondly, I may be proving my ignorance of words once again, but I always thought that communication simply meant a transfer of information. The way you describe sex is as an activity, or interaction as you put it--which was very accurate. And it does bring teasing and memories and other things that all special activities do. I fail to see why you suggest sex is an *important* pre-marriage activity, because in my mind it would only bring questions of intent into the relationship.
Piffka wrote:Where do think those morals come from?
My morals come from my personal choice as to what I think is right and wrong which I do base off of many influences. However I scrutinize each situation to see if it is moral to me.
Piffka wrote:Gifts that are sacrifices are rarely well-received...
Not even an example to back that up? I can think of many sacrifices that are well received... Since you keep bringing religion into this, the death of Christ would be the first that comes to mind.
Ceili wrote:I think you've become pre-occupied with sex. I suggest you pick up a book or three. Read biographies, see why men might want a woman, for something aside virginity.
I swear, you've read one too many harlequin romances. You've put a glow on the harsh realities of life and romanticised sex and virtue at the expense of knowledge. Men look for more than the proverbial helpless virgin.
I'm not pre-occupied with sex, as much as I just enjoy thinking about why people do the things they do. And if you think I want a woman for her virginity, you are beyond mistaken and obviously haven't read anything I've sid in the thread. In addition, if I am a virgin and my wife is not, I would most likely be ok with it if she was completely open with me about it and we thoroughly talked through it... but again, that would be on a case by case basis.
And I have no idea what a harlequin romance is, so I don't think I've read one.
ossobuco wrote:I think you are going to run into a lot of hurt and while your comments seem fairly cold to most, I see them as very idealistic and hopeful. You are inexperienced on purpose, and will miss therefore some awful times, but also - probably - some that will give life depth and breadth.
Very good ossobuco! Although I don't know how I will miss some "awful" times by being a virgin (shouldn't I be missing some "fun" or "pleasurable" times?), nor do I understand how I will miss out on breadth and depth (especially when I view premarital sex on such a surface and hormonal level), but your first sentence that I quoted does make me quite happy.
fullofmalarkey9 wrote:I would love to see you prove it.
I speak from nothing...
I'm cutting out... Malarkey you've proven that you don't have a clue.
You are shining on a lot of years of experience here, fom, including nimh's. Nimh is a fraction of my age and wise in many ways.
It is clear to me you are smart, and you are arrogant with your belief.
Good luck to you, and if you keep on, feel free to come back and talk, and if you start to grope with a new world, feel free to come back.
Oh, wait, your a guy...,
Instead of waxing rhetoric, I suggest you search out the alternatives, and not the obvious choices either, :wink: :wink: I'm not sure your a one woman man.
I'm imagining the endless circle, the staid conversations, dull little q&a sessions, with you as the interrogator - if and when you were to meet a not-so virginal girl. The woman worthy of baptising your johnson in glorious sin. I'm guessing the only way to cleanse her is "have discussions."
I'm trying hard not to imagine the jack rabbit 'love making' scenes she'll endure, in fact, I want it burned from my memory.
I wish I could speed up this thread and check in, in ten years....
fullofmalarkey9 wrote:[ And if you think I want a woman for her virginity, you are beyond mistaken and obviously haven't read anything I've sid in the thread. In addition, if I am a virgin and my wife is not, I would most likely be ok with it if she was completely open with me about it and we thoroughly talked through it... but again, that would be on a case by case basis.
MY BET: You are kidding yourself big-time!
fullofmalarkey9 wrote:I did read what you wrote, but I figured I would try again to explain my stance, because people obviously aren't getting the point. You need preparation because you EXPECT it to happen, not because you WANT it to happen.
I expect you are very young and we understand because we too "knew it all" in our youth. As we grow older we lose confidence and fall foul of an illusion that perhaps we were wrong. Stupidly, we forgo the certitude that was so comforting in youth and are led from the path of "rightness" by listening to and considering the views of others. Amazingly, we sometimes even laugh at beliefs that we once considered sacred. Even worse, we begin thinking that others disagree not because they have not heard our oracular pronouncement but they actually dare to question it.
fullofmalarkey9 wrote:...I mean if you freely have sex now, how is that not cheating on the future monogamous relationship that you fully expect to happen?--
Y'all didn't respond to that! ^^^
I'll step up to the plate on that one.
You say you're a Christian. See:
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~sek/wedding/commonprayer.html - that's the traditional Christian marriage ceremony, from the Book of Common Prayer. I take it that it's a sufficient authority?
Scroll down about halfway, to just after
Then shall they give their troth to each other in this manner. The Minister, receiving the Woman at her father's or friend's hands, shall cause the Man with his right hand to take the Woman by her right hand, and to say after him as followeth.
According to the Book of Common Prayer, the traditional Christian marriage vows state (emphasis mine, this is from the above website):
Quote:I John take thee Jane to my wedded Wife, to have and to hold from this day forward, for better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death us do part, according to God's holy ordinance; and thereto I plight thee my troth.
Note, "from this day forward",
not from the end of my life backward, but
from the marriage date forward.
Hence, there is no pre-marital cheating by having pre-marital relations with someone else. And, the ceremony never mentions virginity. It is not a requirement.
(I'm outta here. I don't have to marry the guy.)
Excellent point, Jespah.
ossobuco wrote:FOM, I'll approach that in a few minutes, after I get over being stunned by it.
You have a good vocabulary, that is especially why I didn't want you to think I was talking down. I had the good luck to take Logic when I was a freshman, a long time ago, and while I don't always apply it, heh, it was a course I'd like to see taught at middleschool level. It is useful in many disciplines, though I see it being described, convincingly sometimes, in the philosophy debates here at a2k, as not always applying. Those discussions are very complex, at least at times.
I am speaking on a tangent to whether your point of view is mistaken or not and am directing my interest for how you or anyone, write papers that put forth a point of view.
I agree with you multifold!
And Malarky - the anticipation of a contract does not a contract make.
Sounds like you'd be more interested in sociology than engineering.
I think, in summary, we the people of A2K find nothing wrong with your personal stance, and your personal reasons for it. The flaw you make is assuming that everyone (people who are not you) has/should believe in these same reasons. You'll need a stronger argument for that, and not one based soley on personal belief.
Portal Star wrote:ossobuco wrote:FOM, I'll approach that in a few minutes, after I get over being stunned by it.
You have a good vocabulary, that is especially why I didn't want you to think I was talking down. I had the good luck to take Logic when I was a freshman, a long time ago, and while I don't always apply it, heh, it was a course I'd like to see taught at middleschool level. It is useful in many disciplines, though I see it being described, convincingly sometimes, in the philosophy debates here at a2k, as not always applying. Those discussions are very complex, at least at times.
I am speaking on a tangent to whether your point of view is mistaken or not and am directing my interest for how you or anyone, write papers that put forth a point of view.
I agree with you multifold!
And Malarky - the anticipation of a contract does not a contract make.
Sounds like you'd be more interested in sociology than engineering.
I think, in summary, we the people of A2K find nothing wrong with your personal stance, and your personal reasons for it. The flaw you make is assuming that everyone (people who are not you) has/should believe in these same reasons. You'll need a stronger argument for that, and not one based soley on personal belief.
And if I may, I'd add: You also seem to be thinking people should applaud folks who make the decision you are making.
That's simply not going to happen.
Be a virgin if you want.
None of us have any problem with that.
Selling it as a virtue -- and consideration that the alternative is somehow unvirtuous is what we object to.
<made a stupid mistake, post deleted>
