Virginity is not an obligation

nimh wrote:

<whines>

fullof ... is critiqueing everyone back, & i dont even get a mention? i feel neglected!

<big grin>

sorry, will perhaps be back with a serious post later ;-)

It's because you don't have an avatar. Hippie. :wink:

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Portal Star wrote:

nimh wrote:
<whines>

fullof ... is critiqueing everyone back, & i dont even get a mention? i feel neglected!

<big grin>

sorry, will perhaps be back with a serious post later ;-)

It's because you don't have an avatar. Hippie. :wink:

No, it's because I can't read Embarrassed

(He did respond already ...)

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Tis a far far better thing to copulate than never.

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fullofmalarkey9 wrote:

nimh wrote:
So - apart from the moral categories, just to go on your analogy - you are "indoors in the 72 degree temperature" (being a virgin), and someone comes into the room and tells you that at some point in time you are "going to be thrown outside", where it's 30 degrees (to a place where you'll be wanting and expected to make love and do it well)."

You incorrectly analyzed my analogy. Being inside is allegory to being single. Someone coming to tell you that you are going to be thrown outside is allegory to you coming to the realization that you expect to someday be in a monogamous marriage. Being thrown outside is allegory to getting married.

I understood your analogy the first time around, fom, no need to repeat it ;-).

What I did was paraphrase your analogy, to show that most of us would use the exact same logic to make the opposite point. Thats why I introduced my post saying, "[yours is] a funny analogy, as other posters will surely point out, too, because it can so easily be turned around."

There's no need to agree with me, whatsoever, but if the logic of your analogy can just as well be used to make the opposite point, it doesn't really support your case; so if you're looking to make a convincing argument I wouldnt use it.

I.e. - you are saying that in order to be prepared for marriage, you need to remain a virgin, cause its as a virgin that you will want to be going into marriage. I would say that, in order to be prepared for marriage, it's better to already have some life experience on the things you'll be facing in marriage (any kind of relationship experience, sexual or otherwise, means you wont have to go through that learning curve still with your wife - you will already know a lot of things). In short, the essential argument that one needs to do something now in order to "be prepared" for meeting your spouse later, can support both the choice to remain a virgin or not to remain a virgin - it doesn't in itself show the need to do one or the other.

The reason it doesnt work, I think, is because of the fallacy that others have pointed out, of circular logic - the reasoning bites itself in its own tail. Basically, if I've indeed summarised your reasoning correctly as that "In order to be prepared for marriage, one needs to remain a virgin, cause its as a virgin that one will want to be going into marriage" - you are saying, "One needs to because one wants to". Thats a fine basis for a life choice, but not a very good argument for a paper ;-).

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Good summary, thank you, nimh, and dys, pithy and wise.

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Good summary, thank you, nimh, and dys, pithy and wise.

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fullofmalarkey9 wrote:

I mean if you freely have sex now, how is that not cheating on the future monogamous relationship that you fully expect to happen?--

Y'all didn't respond to that! ^^^

Well I for one havent responded to that because I really have to grasp to even understand what you could mean ... no offence, just saying that I dont get it. How can one cheat a partner one doesn't actually have?

You will want a "future, monogamous relationship", so, once you have it, you will indeed be monogamous - what's that got to do with relationships you have now? You fully expect to have, I'm sure, a relationship with your future spouse that involves telling each other your deepest feelings - does that mean that you shouldn't tell people your deepest feelings now, or that doing so would be "cheating" on your future partner? (Can you see that I'm grasping?)

fullofmalarkey9 wrote:

Seriously, if your wife wasn't happy with your sexual performance do you think that she'd suggest that you go get some experience so she will be more satisfied? Doubt it....

No, of course not, because that would involve breaking the monogamy of the relationship which by that time you will actually be having.

But I can well imagine that she would have wished you'd gotten some experience before you met her, so that you would have been prepared for the, uhm, challenge, or game ...

I already mentioned one lady friend who was a bit deterred upon finding that her prospective new bf was still a virgin, I can mention another, who was deeply dissapointed that the new boyfriend she finally found, had no experience and did not know what to do ... she was a bit daunted, let's say.

Not saying that there are no women out there who would appreciate your "sacrifice" - just saying that the odds are mixed on that, so don't expect her to be necessarily glad about it.

fullofmalarkey9 wrote:

Piffka wrote:
Gifts that are sacrifices are rarely well-received...

Not even an example to back that up? I can think of many sacrifices that are well received... Since you keep bringing religion into this, the death of Christ would be the first that comes to mind.

Only to Christians ... To others, his sacrifice was pretty much meaningless, if not outright bothersome. ;-)

Example, example ... yeh. I mean, I totally agree with Piffka. Someone making - or having made - a sacrifice for you that you never asked for is, if anything, unsettling - and it can become quite the issue.

When my gf came to live here from abroad, I did all kinds of things for her. She needed a lot of help and I exhausted myself, in fact. Thing is, she would later point out, I exhausted myself doing many of the 'wrong' things - i.e., things she hadnt needed me to do - she had wanted me to do other things.

Now, **** happens, but when as a result I temporarily ended up on disability leave because I'd become mentally overstretched, she was not pleased, at all, about "my sacrifice for her" ... I mean, I'd done all kinds of things "for her", that she hadnt actually wanted me to do, and now she had to deal with the consequences!

Well, thats how she tells the story, anyway (we're no longer together) - my take on what happened would be quite different ;-)

Point of the story: you make your sacrifice as your own personal choice. But you say you make it "for her" - your future spouse. But you can't be sure, at all, whether she'll actually appreciate it - or whether it'll actually constitute a downside, more than anything else, for her (see above about how some women view "virgin grooms").

The problem wouldn't even so much be that she will face the consequences of your choice. Because the same goes for if you had made the opposite choice, and not remained a virgin. Then she would have to deal with that, and who knows, you might meet a girl who would find that the less palatable thing.

The problem would come in where you would expect her to somehow be grateful for your "sacrifice" - or even just appreciate it, per se. Thats where gifts that are sacrifices are often ill-received - because the receiver is faced with having to be grateful about something really big and sacrificial the other person did, even tho she might not have wanted him to have done it, in the first place.

Of course, if you can honestly work it out for yourself so that your choice of "sacrifice" is really just your life choice, and you dont expect anything in return for it per se, you won't have that last problem. But that's pretty hard, I think.

fullofmalarkey9 wrote:

ossobuco wrote:
You are inexperienced on purpose, and will miss therefore some awful times, but also - probably - some that will give life depth and breadth.

[..] Although I don't know how I will miss some "awful" times by being a virgin (shouldn't I be missing some "fun" or "pleasurable" times?), nor do I understand how I will miss out on breadth and depth (especially when I view premarital sex on such a surface and hormonal level)

I think Osso was saying that, by deciding to forego on pre-marital sex, you will miss out both on some awful times (because some sexual experiences are awful) and on some experiences that would give your life extra depth and breadth.

Concerning the latter, you think you won't, because you think those experiences would be merely surface-level things - but the thing is, you can't know that, cause you've decided not to try them out.

That's OK - I've decided not to try mountainclimbing - but that does mean I can't judge on whether mountainclimbing is merely a "surface" experience - I'll just have to live with not knowing how special it might be ;-).

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<looks up>

damn ... ahem. i guess i typed a lot, huh? so much for being concise ... well, i did try to answer your questions, anyhow! :-P

meanwhile, as for the purpose of the thread, i think portal star and frank apisa summarised the conclusion for the rest of us pretty well in their last posts.

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Hey y'all... wow... thanks for the great comments!

But as a parting thought, in my mind the argument isn't circular (as in I'm doing it with the expection that my wife will appreciate it so therefore it's worth doing). I'm not doing this so my wife is grateful. I'm honestly doing this for myself. Because in all sincerity, I have a very active conscious. And I KNOW if I decided to have sex, during sex I just couldn't help but think, "what would my wife say if she could see me now?"

But I do have a final question... Have y'all who have been responding lost faith in humanity? I mean it seems like everyone is just critiquing my thoughts now because the are "idealistic"... words like "young" are used to support this theme. And y'all continue to prove your distrust in people by not holding me to my word:

Quote:

MY BET: You are kidding yourself big-time!

Quote:

I'm not sure your a one woman man.
I'm imagining the endless circle, the staid conversations, dull little q&a sessions, with you as the interrogator

...case in point. And in addition Ceili decides to prove her stance by taking the traits that she can pick out about me and putting negative adjectives in front of them. Which is ok, I guess. :p I have no reason to lie, nor do I lie to myself. How do I know? Through endless questioning and validating of why I do what I do... duh! :p

Anyhow, the argument that I was expecting to hear out of y'all was an argument of inconsistency. It was sort of touched upon earlier (can't find the exact quote) but someone said that sharing intimacies in earlier relationships would be like cheating. While I don't consider that, itself, true since I think that the experiences you have, no matter how personal, are worth sharing to anyone depending upon the circumstance.

What I was expecting, however, was making-out to be cited. Because if you make-out with another girl during marriage, that would generally be considered cheating (in my mind at least).... yet I can't think of one person who would ever abstain from making-out until marriage (I can't say that I'm a make-out-virgin :p).

So what makes sex different. The difference is what y'all have been trying to pound into my head from the beginning, personal choice.

Edit: But I guess what I'm still left wondering is why so many choose premarital sex over virginity. Is it really as selfless as viewing sex as practice for marriage.... can anyone honestly say that is the reason that they have sex before marriage?

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nimh wrote:

Concerning the latter, you think you won't, because you think those experiences would be merely surface-level things - but the thing is, you can't know that, cause you've decided not to try them out.

I disagree with that for many reasons, mainly because defensive people (I'm not saying you specifically are defensive) have used that in the past as a their lone reason to hold my claim invalid. Everytime I hear it I think of the girls who beat their moms on Maury shouting out, "You don't know me! You don't know anything... I love my momma" while the mom is crying next to her.

I think you can make many fair judgments on subjects without actually experiencing them.

If I jump off a 20 story building, I'll make the bold claim that I'll die. Yet, I haven't done it.

I'll make the bold claim that Hitler and Stalin were bad people. Yet, I've never met them.

I come to these conclusions because the evidence around them usually conclusively points to something.

With sex it makes logical sense to do it because people say it feels good. They practice to improve the feeling, there are books on it... etc. Not only that, but then I think about the some guy asking some other guy if he "got laid" or "hit it" or "tap it", terms which suggest a crude and abrasive view of what sex is. If you ask someone about sex, I generally don't expect to hear something like, "Wow, my understanding of her and myself was awesome after it, it was enlightening!" No, I expect to hear either something along the lines of how pleased or disappointed they were with the feeling. Maybe my experiences have just misled me though...

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fullofmalarkey9 wrote:

Edit: But I guess what I'm still left wondering is why so many choose premarital sex over virginity. Is it really as selfless as viewing sex as practice for marriage.... can anyone honestly say that is the reason that they have sex before marriage?

No, of course not! LOL. We do it cause we want to, we like to, etc. But an additional benefit is that it makes you better prepared for ... etc. And the fact that it's indeed considered, by many men and women, a benefit rather than something to "forgive", undermines the belief you submitted that one needs to NOT have sex in order to prepare for marriage - that's why I brought it up.

So - I wasnt saying that one should have sex, even if one doesnt want to, just in the name of a future marriage - that´d be silly - I was merely saying that the opposite doesn't, to many people anyway, make any more sense either. So don't expect anyone to necessarily appreciate your gift of sacrifice, or be willing to repay it in kind. Well, you already replied that you're really only doing it for yourself, so I guess that's OK <still doubting>.

fullofmalarkey9 wrote:

Not only that, but then I think about the some guy asking some other guy if he "got laid" or "hit it" or "tap it", terms which suggest a crude and abrasive view of what sex is. If you ask someone about sex, I generally don't expect to hear something like, "Wow, my understanding of her and myself was awesome after it, it was enlightening!" No, I expect to hear either something along the lines of how pleased or disappointed they were with the feeling. Maybe my experiences have just misled me though...

Well, not to want to sound too stern, but have you actually listened to any of us here on this thread? Have any of us been talking about it in terms of "hitting it"? Or have we said stuff about how its been enlightening for us, helped us to understand our partner, et cetera - apart from being very pleasant (or not so), as well?

The "hitting it" talk is sad, of course, I agree. I associate it with guys hanging out in a bar, having a beer too many, and boasting. Perhaps to them it was really a question of just "getting laid"; perhaps, who knows, it was in fact some deep emotional experience for them, but they would never admit that to their "mates"- you dont know. Its puerile talk, even if its thirty-somethings slapping each other on the shoulders. But have you tried serious one-on-one conversations with a trusted person about what it meant to them? Because I'm sure you might get somewhat "deeper" responses, then, especially if you talk with someone over 20 or 25 ...

But hell, what am I talking about? What are you talking about? You did start a serious conversation about it with trusted persons - us all, right here! Razz

And we're real people, just as real as those guys who boasted to you about "getting laid" ... So ... perhaps our various answers could be a reason to change what you "expect to hear" when talking about this subject - and thus your judgement on how "surface and hormonal" pre-marital sex by definition is? 'S no use asking about people's experiences, and then discounting them saying that you know better, because of what you heard your friends say about it ...

Anyway, I hope this all has been of some help ... I wish you luck + happiness!

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Full

Since you seem to be winding this thread down, I've got a few other thoughts I've wanted to share, but have been reluctant to do so 'til now. These next few items may come off as gratuitous, insulting observations.

I ASSURE YOU THEY ARE NOT INTENDED THAT WAY...and I hope you give them consideration.

The more I hear of what you have to say, the more convinced I am that you are rationalizing your position rather than telling us why you doing what you are doing.

If I may, I'd like to put the notion I am trying to share here into ironic, (I like to think "humorous") terms:

At times, when I hear you saying you have decided not to bed down any women until after you are married, I liken it to my decision not to cheat on Nancy by having an affair with Jennifer Lopez or Jessica Alba.

At other times, I liken it to my decision not to try skydiving or hang gliding, because it would take time away from my golf.

Get my drift? :wink:

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The reason guys (or some females) brag about "tapping it" or whatever other euphamisms they chose to use - isn't because of the nature of the act itself, it is because they feel they need to validate their manliness/sexual prowress in front of their buddies. They feel cool one-upping each other, and often hiding their emotions (as many men are taught to do.) If one person is going behind the other's back and bragging, knowing the other partner would be upset about it, that is disrespectful and very bad sexual manners, no matter who you are or what kind of relationship it is.
I would be angry if I found a lover talking about me as some kind of abstracted sex machine. That's called compartmentalization of the human body - by showing or reffering to only a specific part - it allows a person to focus on that part and not the whole person. You see it in beer ads all the time. Like, you'll see a beer on a bilboard, and behind it a woman's breasts (not her face.)
http://www.allfunnypictures.com/posters/043_3360.jpg

Can I go out on a limb and assume that you are in high school, not college? Your experiences strike me as those of someone who is younger.

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nimh wrote:

Well, you already replied that you're really only doing it for yourself, so I guess that's OK <still doubting>.

Why would you doubt? Flash forward to the day after my married life--do you really think I'd be moping around all day hanging my head low because my wife didn't appreciate the "sacrifice" that I made? Honestly, if that was the case than I've married the wrong woman. Because I can't see how I wouldn't be excited at the prospect of sharing the rest of my experiences in my life with such an awesome (requirement) woman.

nimh wrote:

Well, not to want to sound too stern, but have you actually listened to any of us here on this thread? Have any of us been talking about it in terms of "hitting it"? Or have we said stuff about how its been enlightening for us, helped us to understand our partner, et cetera - apart from being very pleasant (or not so), as well?

I've been listening, but I've also been cautious to accept what I'm reading at face value. Which is sort of a double standard I suppose since I've been asking y'all to hold me to my word. I just can't help but think that the only reason I hear words like "enlightening" is to give sex a mystification that it doesn't really have. I've often heard the word, "indescribable" when talking to others about sex on a level deeper than physical gratification. So I hold reservations.

However, I do definitely think that some of the people in this thread do seem to view sex in a more serious and responsible light. They still acknowledge that sex is a bunch of fun (rightly so), but they seem to hold some weight to its value, making it something more than just a recreation.

nimh wrote:

But have you tried serious one-on-one conversations with a trusted person about what it meant to them? Because I'm sure you might get somewhat "deeper" responses, then, especially if you talk with someone over 20 or 25 ...

Well, Ceili sort of touched on it earlier, but yeah I do love my serious discussions. Especially discussions where all you can go off of is reasoning and opinion. And it's hard to explain, but in real life I would say that one of, if not my best quality, is evoking trust in people. For some reason that I can't yet identify, folks tend to trust me almost instantaneously, which is awesome! So I've actually had many a deep conversation about this subject, but the participants have been mainly virgins or people who have sex when they believe they have reached a proper emotional state in the relationship. I have talked to some people who view sex as something fun to do on a Saturday night, but frankly, none of them had ever questioned their actions before. They were all the it feels good so it must be done now type.

I have not talked to many/any people over 25 about it though. I'm 20 years old in college and I love hearing what my peers have to say. And unless I ask my engineering professors what their take on sex is, my options are limited.

I am, however, very interested in why you say that people over 25 will offer "deeper" insight on sex. If that is the case, then I pose another question: Do you think people under 25, going as far back as junior highers these days, should talk with/listen to people over 25 about sex? Do you, personally, think that teenagers growing up view sex incorrectly? I mean, sure, everyone is entitled to do what they want to do and follow their own choices in life, but does that mean that we can never object to an act of consensual sex? Even if it's a 13 year old with 6 different partners (I'm assuming at different times of course)?

nimh wrote:

'S no use asking about people's experiences, and then discounting them saying that you know better, because of what you heard your friends say about it ...

Firstly, I don't know better, nor do I ever (at least I hope I don't) discount peoples experiences on the basis of, "I know better." The whole point of the thread was for me to try to offer the thought process of why virgins may (or do in my case) actually want to be a virgin, instead of it being an obligation. When I ask for people's reasoning, all I really want is for someone to explain their view and provide sound reasoning for why they do it, and why they choose not to do the alternative.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Get my drift? :wink:

No

Sorry Frank, but if you could spell out what you are saying in a more straightforward way, I would love it! Don't worry about being blunt or hurting my feelings, I can take it. Your riddles confuse the heck out of me. Confused

And it may, or may not be winding down. I know I hinted to that above, but I just found the metaphor that I was looking for, so I have to post it--see what y'all think--and then probably call it quits.

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I do want to point out something you said on the first page, because I was rereading the post and I must've forgot to look at:

nimh wrote:

Basically - selfish though that might sound - virgins are a whole lot less fun to have sex with than people who know what to do, and who know what they want themselves.

- Also, sex is a journey of exploration...

The point of committed relationships is about journeys, at least in my opinion. You become married to share the journey of the rest of your life with each other. That, outright, is far and away the most exciting thing about getting married.

Since I do love metaphors, and I've been having some major trouble trying to find a fitting metaphor for this (dealing with the whole time and expectation issue is hard to fit with other circumstances).

Let's say you're in high school and you meet this person at a summer camp or whatever. You two hit it off and exchange information. Y'all have some sort of major common interest, let's pick... the Spanish language for example. The problem? You live in Montana and the other person lives in Florida. The catch? You are both (as luck would have it) are going to go to the same college. So you plan on taking Spanish together in college. You'll learn Spanish together.

But your high school at home offers a Spanish program. Since you really really want to learn Spanish, you contemplate taking the class at home.

Now you are left with some decisions.

Option 1: You could take the Spanish at home, and if she happens to take Spanish at home, you'll most likely be able to speak to each other in Spanish in college, which is the goal regardless of when you take it.

Option 2: You could take Spanish at home and she does not take Spanish at home. At college you'll be able to speak Spanish, and she'll just be learning to.

Option 3: You could wait to take it in college and she takes Spanish in high school. You'll be learning the basics of Spanish, while she is fine-tuning her fluency.

Option 4: You both wait until college and you both begin learning the basics of Spanish.

Now, I, personally am an Option 3 or 4 kind of guy. Why? Because the journey is the important part to me, the journey is what makes the experience special. Sure, people could tell you the endings to all the great movies, or stories that are out there, but you might get upset, because the journey is what makes it.

If you both wait until college to take Spanish together, you'll be able to watch each other progress through step after step, and that's what makes the experience worthy of remembrance.

So I think, maybe, one of the gifts I give my wife that she can't turn down is the gift of seeing my progression on my sexual journey, regardless of how painfully sad the first experience may be.

Some may argue that option 1 is the best scenario. I mean, the goal is to speak Spanish to each other, so the more fluent you are when you meet the better it should be, right? But for the reasons above pertaining to the whole journey thing, the end just isn't as important as the journey I take. I'm not saying it isn't important, I'm just saying that it isn't as important in my eyes.

Does that make any sense?

Edit: Not to mention that the person you are waiting for would be arguably the person you care about most in life.

Double Edit: And if it my answer does make sense, why wouldn't others who see this also want to do it?

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fullofmalarkey9 wrote:

I have not talked to many/any people over 25 about it though. I'm 20 years old in college and I love hearing what my peers have to say. And unless I ask my engineering professors what their take on sex is, my options are limited.

I am, however, very interested in why you say that people over 25 will offer "deeper" insight on sex. If that is the case, then I pose another question: Do you think people under 25, going as far back as junior highers these days, should talk with/listen to people over 25 about sex? Do you, personally, think that teenagers growing up view sex incorrectly? I mean, sure, everyone is entitled to do what they want to do and follow their own choices in life, but does that mean that we can never object to an act of consensual sex? Even if it's a 13 year old with 6 different partners (I'm assuming at different times of course)?

I'm 20 and also in college. I am curious - where do you go to college? You can pm me. It would be funny if you went to my college.

I think that you are leaving out a large part of this conversation. RELIGION has a huge bearing on the sexual choices of many individuals. Teenagers are influenced by where they get their sexual information from, and these are usually from four or five sources:

1. Religion
2. Parents
3. friends
4. teachers
5. magazines/books/television. (media)

First they get information somehow, and if they chose to accept that infomation as valid or potentially valid, they accept it into their orientation.
You sure you don't want to be a social psych major? I think you should take a class, you'd really like it (and I say this impartially because I personally think it's a waste of time.) My roomate is a social psych major, and the kind of stuff she studies sounds right up your alley. There's also a lot of crossover between subjects because of studies about acceptance of knowledge - for example - there's a whole branch of political science dealing with how people accept and process information, and they try to figure out who votes for what, when, and why (they usually get hired to work on campaigns.)

I think religion is one of the strongest influences on sexual choice because it is somthing people are closely affiliated to, trusting of, and they give out very strong opinions on the subject. Parents are another strong influence, and if your parents are religious than you usually are too (at least long enough for your opinions to start to form.)

Please do not take much information from the jerry springer show - and, by the way, my sociology teacher loved to watch that show and diagnose the cast.

SO, this subject being very complex, I suggest that instead of making my fingers and brain hurt, you take a sociology class, and if your college is good they will probably have one focusing on sex.

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Portal Star, wonderful post.... very interesting!

And sorry, I'm in college and I've always been told that I'm quite mature for my age (ever since I've been about 8 or 10 years old) so I don't quite understand why everyone is envisioning me as a young'n. And I've been carrying on conversations such as this one since the freshman year of high school on a multitude of topics. As of right now I think that y'all are coming to that conclusion based on my idealization of certain things. Is that what you are basing your deduction on?

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Quote:

The point of committed relationships is about journeys, at least in my opinion. You become married to share the journey of the rest of your life with each other. That, outright, is far and away the most exciting thing about getting married.

This might blow your little mind, but consider it:

The exact kinds of relationships possible in marriage are possible outside of marriage. Marriage is only a vow and a piece of paper. The rest is human.

I'll be straight with you about why I thought you were young:

I based it on your word useage and your infomation sources (boasting buddies, Jerry springer.) Now I understand that it's because you're an engineering major and you're deeply religious. That allows for 1. lack of exposure to papers and english classes, lots of exposure to numbers and homework (and I dated an engineering major who didn't get out much - figure most of them are like that) and 2. the idealism which could be labeled naive but isn't neccesarily (because it's cultured to value naivety) that stems from extreme religious dependence.

IT probably doesn't help that your icon is a cute little cow :wink: .

As far as I'm concerned, curiosity is the base of knowledge, and if you have curiousity you get the smart stamp in my book. Which, it seems, you do.

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fullofmalarkey9 wrote:

However, I do definitely think that some of the people in this thread do seem to view sex in a more serious and responsible light. They still acknowledge that sex is a bunch of fun (rightly so)...

How on Earth would you know that?

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Virginity is not an obligation

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