Virginity is not an obligation

fullofmalarkey9 wrote:

Portal Star:
-If you could explain how sex is useful in getting to know yourself better, I'd be interested to hear. Personally I don't understand why someone would use sex to forge a "deeper" bond when open conversation is an obvious alternative.

Of course conversation is a good way to get to know your partner. So is sex. You understand each other's likes and dislikes, and you learn about intimacy and pleasing the person you love.

As far as knowing yourself better, many people shun their gentials as "evil" and many religions require that you tell people when you masturbate, and get punished for it. It is a "no" area for many people, and having one part of your body blocked off is mentally unhealthy. You need to be able to understand your body, and not view any part of your body as evil. It is your choice whether or not to use it, but it should be understood, not feared because of it's power to procreate.

fullofmalarkey9 wrote:

-Would you honestly dump an awesome woman just because she didn't satisfy you as much as you think you deserve? I fail to see a shred of morality in that. In the same sense, whether someone is a virgin or not does not hold nearly enough weight to marry someone or not. Yet, those who choose to satisfy themselves with every opportunity that comes their way would not be compatible with me.

To be a good lover, it is as much a responsibility for a man to please a woman as it is for a woman to please a man. Knowing that someone cares enough about you to forsake their own pleasure and make sure you are satisfied - aka being a good lover - shows that they have good qualities in sex and other areas. I know people who were in love, a long distance relationship, and his penis was very large and hurt her every time they had sex. She had to go to the hospital. I would not recommend they get married - sex is a large part of marriage, and the intent is to have children in the future - so no, I don't think sex before marriage is in any way harmful to sex after marriage, unless people are unsafe beforehand.

fullofmalarkey9 wrote:

-Referring to number 4, which is a cliche empty statement in my opinion, loses further validity when you can look in a mirror to fully explore your body if you choose. If you become ill do you somehow become more comfortable with yourself after you regain your health?

-Referring to number 5, that is very true and no one can write an all-inclusive letter on such a broad subject. So yes, that is an exception, but having sex does not open anyone's eyes to other life preferences, I don't see how that pertains.

Sure, mirrors work too. That would be fine for anyone to do if they chose. I don't know about being sick - that is an ailment, where sex is not - it is a natural function of the body. If I wanted to stretch it, I could say that your body learns to fight off disease and knows how to battle things in the future based on the illness it triuphed over, and I could say that that is like sex because you learn every time a little bit more about what pleases you and what turns on your partner, so you leave each time a bit more knowledgeable. But that would be stretching it Smile

.

Sex doesn't open people's eyes to life preferences? It isn't necessary to do so, but it does. Have you looked at the web recently? Different people are turned on by different things. Some people by feet... Some people by roleplaying, some people by overweight women, certain moves, you name it - each person has their own sexual personality just like each person has their own personality.

Sexual diseases are unfortunate, but they are a reality which everyone who is planning on having sex - married or unmarried - should deal with responsibly. [For further information, visit planned parenthood www.plannedparenthood.com]

fullofmalarkey9 wrote:

"Sex and when to have it is a personal choice, and no one should let someone else make the decision for them. Be it abstinence, marriage, loving relationships, or consensual sex partners, the most important thing to remember about sex is that you are responsible and comfortable."

First you say sex is a personal choice, and then you establish your own criteria for right and wrong, being that we all should remember to be responsible with sex. Of course, the definition of such abstract terms like responsible and comfortable would be solely yours.

So where is the line for responsible sex and sex with disregard? 5 partners, 50, or 500? What makes an responsible sex life distinctly different than an irresponsible one?

Here is exactly why I said that: Sex involves two people. You need to be comfortable, but if it is not consentual that is rape. And if you are not responisble, you could spread serious disease to yourself and your partner. That is why it's important to be responsible. As far as frequency and number of partners, that is up to what the individual is comfortable with. A responsible sex life is one in which partners are consentual, and safe sex is practiced. (This would involve trust, testing, and stable birth control.)

fullofmalarkey9 wrote:

dlowan:
"You assume that a putative future spouse will have to "forgive" past sexual activity - this implies a fault is there to forgive."
If you have sex during marriage would you not expect forgiveness from your wife? If you freely talked about your past sexual partners and how great they were, do you think she would feel uncomfortable? She will forgive it because it obviously was a mistake if you aren't with the person anymore.

Now you are talking about manners. No, you would not brag about that to your wife, or how good they were for the same reasons you wouldn't tell her that people you dated before her were prettier. The future spouse can, however, reap the benefit of past lovers through your knowledge of how to please him/her. No, cheating after marriage is wrong - marriage is an agreement - a contract to be exclusive after signed. To cheat would be a breach of trust. (Unless of course, you guys swing consentually or somthing like that, whatever floats your boat.)

It is fine if you choose to abstain from sex before marriage, but it is unwise to assume that is what is best for everyone.

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fullofmalarkey9 wrote:

Sorry, that was a typo. I meant to say extramarital. Having sex before marriage is extramarital as well, so I thought the similarity was obvious.

How is having sex before marriage extamarital? Does marriage exist in some time-space continum, the contract signed the moment you're born?

correction: Ah, I see you've already adressed that. OK.

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I was once taught that sex outside of marriage is a sin and understand fullofmalarkey's misuse of the word extramarital.

I agree with all of dlowan's points about the lack of logical reasoning in fullofmalarkey's proposed paper.

On the matter of sex and love not being an equation: no, they certainly aren't. However, sex is still, many times, an act of love, an expression of love, and then love is part of every move, every touch, in it. Sex can also enrich love, make love more fully experienced, at the moment and afterwards.

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Full of malarky - if it is abstinence you choose to promote for others, I would write my paper as listing all of the benefits of abstinence. Remove the tone of moral authority and list more reasons -for- abstinence and it should be fine. If I were you, I would mention STD's - they are very scary and a good reason to be abstinent if you chose to do so.

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Ignorance is bliss

I remember when you and I would have agreed. I was preached this way of thinking since birth. I soon learned what malarkey 'sexuality is sin' really was.
The true 'sin' is the lack of decent sex education.
We have a t.v./radio show called, "The Sunday Night Sex Show." People from all across Canada and the U.S. call in and ask questions. Sue Johansen, a registered nurse, answers every kind of question you could imagine. The lack of sexual knowledge is stunning. Sadly, so many myths prevail, party because of the saintly attitudes of the chastity movements.
Sex is wonderful, it should be experienced by everybody, as much as they like. unfortunately, you'll learn this doesn't always end up being the case. I digress...
If you choose to remain a virgin, hey, all the power to you. But do your self a favour, read books, watch videos ect. Then at least you'll have an idea of what to do, when the gift is but a memory.

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Hey all, thanks for the comments thus far.

I think I've found a more straightforward way to explain my problem with premarital sex. So I'll try and explain it as best I can. Of course I can't speak for every single person on the planet. This idea cannot be all inclusive since there seem to always be exceptions, so I'm going to use the word generally to indicate the majority, at least the majority in my mind. :p

Generally, people expect to one day be married or in a committed relationship if they currently aren't.

Generally, once the commitment has been made, the marriage or committed relationship is expected to be monogamous.

And now I'll present an alternative example.

It's 30 degrees outside, but your thermostat reads 72 degrees inside.

When it's 72 degrees out, people generally wear shorts and short sleeve shirts.

When it's 30 degrees out, people obviously bundle up.

In this situation, you are indoors in the 72 degree temperature at the moment and someone comes into the room at tells you that at some point in time you are going to be immediately thrown outside and you won't be allowed inside again. What do you do? Well, generally, I believe people would bundle themselves up, regardless of how hot it will make them inside. Since, at some point, they expect to be thrown outside, they change their lives to match the expectations before the conditions for that expectation actually arise. By having sex before marriage, it would be like wearing shorts inside in the 72 degree weather and then getting thrown out into the cold and somehow expecting to find clothes waiting for you outside. I guess they think they will keep warm by having a lot of sex. :p

And I use the idea of being thrown outside unexpectedly because when you meet the person that you eventually marry you don't know you'll marry them at the time, so it's unexpected.

And the overall point is that if you have the expectation that you'll be married someday, and you have the expectation that you'll have a monogamous marriage, wouldn't you prepare yourself now (allegory to bundling up indoors) since you don't know when you will meet your spouse?

I mean if you freely have sex now, how is that not cheating on the future monogamous relationship that you fully expect to happen?

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Did you read what I wrote? Your analogy makes no sense. You say you need preperation for an event because you want it to happen. You want to be prepared for your spouse, and you want to do that by not having sex before you meet said spouse. That's well and dandy for you, but why should it apply to others? Maybe you shouldn't "bunde up" when it's 20 years before the "cold weather." Couldn't you just but on your coat when you go outside? I think this analogy falls a little flat. Please read my precious comments (in which I adressed individual issues.)

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fullofmalarkey9 wrote:

And now I'll present an alternative example.

It's 30 degrees outside, but your thermostat reads 72 degrees inside.

When it's 72 degrees out, people generally wear shorts and short sleeve shirts.

When it's 30 degrees out, people obviously bundle up.

In this situation, you are indoors in the 72 degree temperature at the moment and someone comes into the room at tells you that at some point in time you are going to be immediately thrown outside and you won't be allowed inside again. What do you do? Well, generally, I believe people would bundle themselves up, regardless of how hot it will make them inside. Since, at some point, they expect to be thrown outside, they change their lives to match the expectations before the conditions for that expectation actually arise

Thats a funny analogy, as other posters will surely point out, too, because it can so easily be turned around.

When you're married, you will want to make love; and you will want to be able to expertly pleasure your spouse as well as yourself.

As a virgin, you are not making love, and you will not generally be suddenly able to pleasure your partner the very first time you try. There's quite a steep learning curve involved there, and even then it doesn't really work out equally well with this or that partner - there's compatibility issues, too.

So - apart from the moral categories, just to go on your analogy - you are "indoors in the 72 degree temperature" (being a virgin), and someone comes into the room and tells you that at some point in time you are "going to be thrown outside", where it's 30 degrees (to a place where you'll be wanting and expected to make love and do it well).

The analogy would work better the other way around here, with virginity being cold <grins> - but, to continue this way around for the moment, "What do you do?"

Well, generally, you would "bundle up already in preparation, since, at some point, you expect to be thrown outside". So "you change your life to match the expectations before the conditions for that expectation actually arise". I.e., in this case, you start exploring already what this making love thing is like and about, what you and other people like and dont like about it and how to do it best, so that you're well prepared "to match the expectations" when the time for fulfilling them comes. ;-)

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I am 32, and finding that a prospective partner was a virgin would freak me out now ... I would have all kinds of issues about that.

- She wouldnt really know what to do or expect, what she liked and wanted ... she would be immature, in that respect, basically. That would be a pity. Basically - selfish though that might sound - virgins are a whole lot less fun to have sex with than people who know what to do, and who know what they want themselves.

- Also, sex is a journey of exploration, and you find stuff along the way that change your outlook on what you like and want in life. People you meet as virgins tend to want to go explore at some point in time ... a "first" boyfriend is almost always - not by intention, but by natural development - a kind of stepping stone, nowadays ... Tricky tricky.
When people have had their time to "journey", they generally know a lot better what they want, and can thus better be relied on, too. Sure was true in my life, anyway - both ways around.

- Basically - it may be cause I live in town and dont know a lot of Christian folks - but anyone who, in this day and age, is still a virgin at 30 - well, it makes you worry a bit about how come. What kind of problems, issues?
'S not just me - a friend of mine mailed me that she had a new bf, the other month, but added summarily that she wasnt sure yet whether he was really the right guy ... I mean, (paraphrasing here), "he's 30, but he's still, eh, virgin, and he lives with his parents" ... those'd be red flags of warning, actually, for many of us.

None of that means that there is anything wrong about you making the choice for abstinence - you always have to do what you feel is right for you. Just the assumption that people will frown on fiancees who turn out not to still be virgin and will have to somehow "forgive" him or her for that, is imho mistaken.

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I will make the jump and assume that fullofmalarkey doesn't think that he will ever have any wish to marry a woman (girl) who is not a virgin and believes that for him to be a virgin would be an asset, a gift to her, and good for them both at the time of marriage, despite a lot of posters mentioning their doubts about the necessity or even benefit of this, and lack of agreement that a spouse will expect it.

Still, going with what full of malarkey posits, how to write the paper?

I would like to suggest that before you rewrite, fom, you check out what people are saying about logical argument. They, dlowan, for example, are trying to point out that you're not arguing your point of view well. There is a fallacy in Logic that is called "begging the question" - that is when you use as your proof what you assume in the question.

I'll try to find a few sites on google to show you examples, and perhaps you can reframe your argument with more convincing points.

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"Did you read what I wrote? Your analogy makes no sense. You say you need preparation for an event because you want it to happen."

I did read what you wrote, but I figured I would try again to explain my stance, because people obviously aren't getting the point. You need preparation because you EXPECT it to happen, not because you WANT it to happen.

"You want to be prepared for your spouse, and you want to do that by not having sex before you meet said spouse."

That's very true I do want to be prepared for my spouse, however sexual preparation would cause me to default on a future vow I make to my wife, therefore, the sexual preparation I gain is little comparison.

"Couldn't you just but on your coat when you go outside?"

I have a feeling that my analogy is flawed and someone is going to point it out soon, but this isn't the flaw. Since you cannot predict when you meet your wife, you cannot also predict when you are going to get thrown outside.

"When you're married, you will want to make love; and you will want to be able to expertly pleasure your spouse as well as yourself."

I'm not getting married to someone who can please me, I'm getting married to someone because I love them. Once I'm in marriage and have verified my love through the ceremony, then I'll be ready to have sex since I've committed myself to the relationship. Whether you can, expertly pleasure your spouse the very first time having sex is insignificant for two reasons. a) you can learn how to have sex well and b) physical pleasure is an insignificant part of a relationship in my mind. Obviously, since I am a virgin, I don't really give a hoot about the empty (in my opinion) pleasures sex brings.

"So - apart from the moral categories, just to go on your analogy - you are "indoors in the 72 degree temperature" (being a virgin), and someone comes into the room and tells you that at some point in time you are "going to be thrown outside", where it's 30 degrees (to a place where you'll be wanting and expected to make love and do it well)."

You incorrectly analyzed my analogy. Being inside is allegory to being single. Someone coming to tell you that you are going to be thrown outside is allegory to you coming to the realization that you expect to someday be in a monogamous marriage. Being thrown outside is allegory to getting married. Being bundled up, versus being in short sleeves and a t-shirt are just means to explain why it's logical to be a virgin. Since you don't know when you are going to be thrown out it makes perfect sense in my mind to bundle up beforehand, possibly for a long time.

--And the overall point is that if you have the expectation that you'll be married someday, and you have the expectation that you'll have a monogamous marriage, wouldn't you prepare yourself now (allegory to bundling up indoors) since you don't know when you will meet your spouse?

I mean if you freely have sex now, how is that not cheating on the future monogamous relationship that you fully expect to happen?--

Y'all didn't respond to that! ^^^ Sad

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This is hard for me to keep answering without joking, but I almost remember agreeing at some point in my life with f.o.m.

As an aside - I think personally it is a serious awakening you are facing, f.o.m., or I hope you will, to the depth of importance physical pleasure has in a lasting and rewarding marriage.

but going back to your original question, you wanted help on how to write the paper. So, again I am off to google to see if I can find some sites useful for not only this paper but other things you might want to put down on paper - basic syllogistic reasoning. I don't mean to be talking down, I know you know some useful words, such as analogy. But a review of types of fallacies could be helpful, always to all of us, but to your paper above specifically.

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Alright I'm going to try to learn how to quote...

Portal Star wrote:

As far as knowing yourself better, many people shun their gentials as "evil" and many religions require that you tell people when you masturbate, and get punished for it. It is a "no" area for many people, and having one part of your body blocked off is mentally unhealthy. You need to be able to understand your body, and not view any part of your body as evil. It is your choice whether or not to use it, but it should be understood, not feared because of it's power to procreate.

Actually, I think fearing its power to procreate is one of the valid reasons to abstain, or in your view practices safe sex, from sex... but that's not a reason that I'm going to address.

Portal Star wrote:

To be a good lover, it is as much a responsibility for a man to please a woman as it is for a woman to please a man. Knowing that someone cares enough about you to forsake their own pleasure and make sure you are satisfied - aka being a good lover - shows that they have good qualities in sex and other areas. I know people who were in love, a long distance relationship, and his penis was very large and hurt her every time they had sex. She had to go to the hospital. I would not recommend they get married - sex is a large part of marriage, and the intent is to have children in the future - so no, I don't think sex before marriage is in any way harmful to sex after marriage, unless people are unsafe beforehand.

To me being a good sexual lover, is unimportant in comparison to showing your love through sacrifice--aka something that you don't get pleasure out of while practicing. Seriously, if your wife wasn't happy with your sexual performance do you think that she'd suggest that you go get some experience so she will be more satisfied? Doubt it....

Portal Star wrote:

Sex doesn't open people's eyes to life preferences? It isn't necessary to do so, but it does. Have you looked at the web recently? Different people are turned on by different things. Some people by feet... Some people by roleplaying, some people by overweight women, certain moves, you name it - each person has their own sexual personality just like each person has their own personality.

I have a feet fetish... and I knew that without having sex! Surprised

... :p I'm trying not to sound repetitive, but when I marry someone I'm going to accept them regardless of how good or bad they are in bed. What would I have to contrast it with anyways? How would I know they weren't the best? What if, through umpteen years of marriage I learn something along the way about sex?

Portal Star wrote:

Sexual diseases are unfortunate, but they are a reality which everyone who is planning on having sex - married or unmarried - should deal with responsibly. [For further information, visit planned parenthood www.plannedparenthood.com]

I agree completely!

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If I have understood this thread correctly, it is about a virgin writing a rationalization of why virgins should stay that way -- and -- asking a bunch of non-virgins to critique that.

Did I get that right?

Malarkey... what did you expect? That non-virgins would fall all over themselves agreeing with you?

Deb's got your number, I'm afraid. You're using your own belief (Virginity is good, Experience is bad.) to bolster your arguments in a circular way.

You're confused about a number of things which is totally understandable since it seems pretty obvious that you've never had sex. For example, you say this:

Quote:

Yet, in my opinion, the act of sex has little to do with love itself. Sex is act of submission to the desires for the pleasure it brings.

Wrong. Sex is an intimate communication between two people. It is quite likely NOT to be pleasurable if it is a first-time event for both parties. It might be funny, it will definitely be embarassing, but the pleasures come with experience.

If you have religious beliefs that keep you from sex before marriage, then that is understandable.

If you have worries about health & keeping yourself free of sexually-transmitted diseases, then that is understandable.

If you have worries about pregnancy and illegitimate children, then that is understandable.

What does not make any sense is imagining that some unknown person is going to value your lack of experience. Why would this unknown person feel that way unless he or she also had religious values similar to yours? The unknown will be pleased that you are disease-free, pleased that you are not a parent, possibly. But your main argument is faulty. Virginity is not a gift; sex is a gift. The better you are at performing, the more of a gift it will be.

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F.O.M. - and all of us - here is a useful site on fallacies and how to posit a logical argument. #19, Begging the Question is what I think Dlowan was referring to most with of her examples.

Ne'er mind whether we agree with you, f.o.m., there are ways to make arguments hang together better.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

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ossobuco wrote:

but going back to your original question, you wanted help on how to write the paper. So, again I am off to google to see if I can find some sites useful for not only this paper but other things you might want to put down on paper - basic syllogistic reasoning. I don't mean to be talking down, I know you know some useful words, such as analogy. But a review of types of fallacies could be helpful, always to all of us, but to your paper above specifically.

If you have some things you would like to post ossobuco, I would love to see what you can dig up, I enjoy learning about new subjects and ideas.

As for my lack of vocabulary, that's something that you'll just have to look past with me. I never really learned how the English language was supposed to be structured and I'm an engineering major in college, so opportunities to fine tune my writing are minimal. But I'm hoping that even though I don't use the most concise explanations, I'm getting my point across.

You can talk down all you like, but I would really rather you just answer questions like:

--I mean if you freely have sex now, how is that not cheating on the future monogamous relationship that you fully expect to happen?--

With your reasoning Very Happy

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Piffka wrote:

Malarkey... what did you expect? That non-virgins would fall all over themselves agreeing with you?

I expected honest discussion.... Sometimes I think people just don't speak openly on the subjects because they are too worried to have some sort of inconsistancy...

Piffka wrote:

Sex is an intimate communication between two people.

But that is just rhetoric. How is it an intimate communication? If it is so intimate, shouldn't it be something that you just want to do with the one person that you'll still care about when your 80? (I'm making another rash assumption... someone has to jump on that :p)

And in general, religion and STD's all have their place, but I'm trying to keep them out of this thread.

Piffka wrote:

Virginity is not a gift; sex is a gift. The better you are at performing, the more of a gift it will be.

Well, I've explained why I think virginity is a gift. See: A sacrifice made before your spouse even asks for it.

But I can only immagine that your explanation would be like someone buying a home computer for a Christmas present. Sure, since everyone can use it, it's a gift to the other people in the home, but wouldn't the motives of the person who bought it (whether they just bought it so they could use it) be in question?

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FOM, I'll approach that in a few minutes, after I get over being stunned by it.

You have a good vocabulary, that is especially why I didn't want you to think I was talking down. I had the good luck to take Logic when I was a freshman, a long time ago, and while I don't always apply it, heh, it was a course I'd like to see taught at middleschool level. It is useful in many disciplines, though I see it being described, convincingly sometimes, in the philosophy debates here at a2k, as not always applying. Those discussions are very complex, at least at times.

I am speaking on a tangent to whether your point of view is mistaken or not and am directing my interest to how you, or anyone, write papers that put forth a point of view.

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Quote:

I mean if you freely have sex now, how is that not cheating on the future monogamous relationship that you fully expect to happen

Whoo-wee the lack of logic is astounding. Look, if you think about stealing are you a thief? If I refuse to learn spanish, then marry a mexican, have I let down my future husband???
If you only live for your tomorrows, you'll miss out on a whole lot of really good things. What happens the night after you given your gift? I can't imagine you've given it much thought?

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ossobuco wrote:

I am speaking on a tangent to whether your point of view is mistaken or not and am directing my interest for how you or anyone, write papers that put forth a point of view.

I understand the definition of every word in that sentence, but I'm not sure I fully understand it, but basically I think you are saying that I am terrible at writing opinion papers. Which is true in this case, basically because I have very very very few people to bounce my thoughts off of (who else has an opinion on virginity like this?). Also, since I know I'm a minority on a subject like this, I tend to try to sound ignorantly sure of myself when the truth is that I'm still verifying what I believe as I go along. But certain things (living my life for a girl I may not have met yet) certainly have little chance to change in my mind.

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Virginity is not an obligation

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