Virginity is not an obligation

fullofmalarkey9 wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Get my drift? :wink:

No Sorry Frank, but if you could spell out what you are saying in a more straightforward way, I would love it! Don't worry about being blunt or hurting my feelings, I can take it. Your riddles confuse the heck out of me. ...

Okay...allow me to explain.

I wrote:

Quote:

At times, when I hear you saying you have decided not to bed down any women until after you are married, I liken it to my decision not to cheat on Nancy by having an affair with Jennifer Lopez or Jessica Alba.

EXPLANATION: The reason I am not cheating on Nancy with Jennifer Lopez or Jessica Alba most definitely has a component of "I do not want to cheat on Nancy" -- but far and away, the reason I am not "popping" Jennifer Lopez or Jessica Alba is because I don't have a realistic shot at it. My guess is that if I ever got the shot, I would take it -- AND FEEL ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE ABOUT IT AFTERWARDS.

In any case, some elements of your discussion here leads me to think that while there may indeed be components of your not getting laid that have to do with moral considerations or preference -- I suspect another component is that the action is not coming your way for one reason or another.

I could be wrong -- but I qualified what I said enough to make my point a valid one.

I also wrote:

Quote:

At other times, I liken it to my decision not to try skydiving or hang gliding, because it would take time away from my golf.

EXPLANATION: My point here was sarcasm. The reason I am not skydiving or hand gliding has less to do with the reason I gave (taking time away from golf) -- and everything to do with the fact that I am scared damn near shitless by the thought of jumping out of an airplane or off a cliff -- no matter what is strapped to me or what I am strapped to.

It is fear stopping me -- not the rationale I gave.

From some of the things you've said, I supect having sex with a woman scares you -- and that is why I likened it to my sarcasm.

I may be wrong. But once again, I acknowledge that with my qualification.

I would like to mention something new here -- and it has nothing to do with sex.

You are in college.

You should have been able to look at what I wrote and determined my message without any explanations.

You might want to consider why you were unable to fathom what my point was -- why something so heavy handed "confused the heck" out of you.

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Portal Star wrote:

You sure you don't want to be a social psych major?

I would, but I want to be able to help people/improve the world (how about that for idealized thinking) on a large scale and I think the best way for me to do that is to decide on what I do best (science and math narrowly win) and then focus on those traits to do some good in the world. I see it as maximizing my potential to help.

And I completely agree with your post again, and yes, I am quite religious as well... but I do want to see if I can find solid reasoning outside of religion for people to be virgins.

Portal Star wrote:

The exact kinds of relationships possible in marriage are possible outside of marriage. Marriage is only a vow and a piece of paper. The rest is human.

Of course this is true. I have many other theories that aren't as idealistic--for example I believe that if you wanted to you could marry 85% of the people you meet and be equally happy in life. Not to mention, when I first started dating I had to face the troubling question of, "What's the difference between a friendship and a relationship?" Because I couldn't allow myself to enter a relationship for physical reasons alone.

And, as I said earlier, my vocabulary and grammatical prowess is VERY poor compared to most of the posters here. For example, I have a hard time understanding Franks sentences. Also, my buddies aren't the ones that boast, at least they don't boast when they are just around me. The boasting part is more of an observation that I've made based on what I've seen throughout my life.

Frank Apisa wrote:

How on Earth would you know that?

Well, I have masturbated before and I always just assumed that there was a strong correlation between masturbation and sex. At least that is what I've gathered thus far.

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fullofmalarkey9 wrote:

For example, I have a hard time understanding Franks sentences.

You shouldn't feel like you're the only one.

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fullofmalarkey9 wrote:

So I've actually had many a deep conversation about this subject, but the participants have been mainly virgins or people who have sex when they believe they have reached a proper emotional state in the relationship. I have talked to some people who view sex as something fun to do on a Saturday night, but frankly, none of them had ever questioned their actions before. They were all the it feels good so it must be done now type.

I can imagine that. But, err, now you have me confused. Is it pre-marital sex that you object to, or sex prior to "having reached a proper emotional state in the relationship"?

Because, yeh - not to discount the exceptions to the rule - but one-off sex on a Saturday night would more often be of the "getting hit" type, while it is with an established relationship that sex is more likely to be ... much more than that. But how does that bear on whether or not one should have sex before marriage?

The only answer I can come up with, guessing, is that for you, not only sex, but the relationship itself that you are describing - with that "emotional state" - is off-bounds before marriage. Kinda like, "I am not falling in love with anyone except my wife to be" - anything else would be cheating on her.

Sadly though, not everyone one falls in love with makes for a good life partner. Much like with sex, it might pay off to explore such relationships, what they are like and what pitfalls and presents they bring, before choosing to go down the aisle for your wedding vows. To put it bluntly, try out before you buy. There's enough people getting divorced already.

fullofmalarkey9 wrote:

nimh wrote:
Well, you already replied that you're really only doing it for yourself, so I guess that's OK <still doubting>.

Why would you doubt? Flash forward to the day after my married life--do you really think I'd be moping around all day hanging my head low because my wife didn't appreciate the "sacrifice" that I made?

Good for you <nods>.

Why was I doubting still? Well, for one, because truly selfless sacrifice is rare. People almost always - consciously or subconsciously - expect some kind of return. :-(

And you, in particular, had previously described in some detail that, should your wife-to-be not have been repaying the favour, so to say (i.e., she wasn't a virgin anymore), it would take many deep discussions and "absolute" openness and honesty about her experiences for you to be able to accept (i.e., forgive) that. Thats what ceili, I think, called the "interrogations" you would submit your new wife to, and I must admit I had the same (alarming) association. It sounded like it would be something you'd be (instinctively, at least) blaming her for.

This is where, I guess, "morals" and "moralising" start getting in each others' way. If you choose to remain virgin because that's what you consider the right thing for you to do, then that's what you should do - all I was saying on that was that you'd better not expect her to be grateful for it, cause she might well not be. But then whence the moralising about her not having made the same choice? Apparently you do expect something back for your sacrifice, is what I deduced - namely, that she would have made the same sacrifice - or, if she hadn't, that she'd be apologetic about it, eager for you to excuse her for it. I may have been wrong - you tell me! Razz

Mind you, this is all getting fairly theoretical, really ... cause I think these things have a way of solving themselves. I mean, if you strongly belief in what you say, you are likely to mostly mingle with - and eventually fall for - women who share your opinion of the matter, because they are deeply religious or whatnot. Still, you never know, with love ... and I'd hate for you to end up sternly submitting your wife to your standards on this matter ... that's all ;-).

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fullofmalarkey9 wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
]How on Earth would you know that?

Well, I have masturbated before and I always just assumed that there was a strong correlation between masturbation and sex. At least that is what I've gathered thus far.

Well, frankly, the correlation is tenuous at best, mostly involving just the release. It is very, very hard to get the emotional involvement with one's fist that accrues to one's partner in a sexual encounter with two (or more) people involved.

Under any circumstances, if sex via masturbation is no problem (and I have had some very, very delightful sex via masturbation in my life) -- the element of morality probably doesn't play a significant part in your decision, since the morality of masturbation and sex outside of marriage are not terribly different. (Or so I'm told!)

So that element can be eliminated.

Hey, we're getting somewhere.

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fullofmalarkey9 wrote:

Portal Star wrote:
You sure you don't want to be a social psych major?

I would, but I want to be able to help people/improve the world (how about that for idealized thinking) on a large scale and I think the best way for me to do that is to decide on what I do best (science and math narrowly win) and then focus on those traits to do some good in the world. I see it as maximizing my potential to help.

that's cool ... <smiles>

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Frank Apisa wrote:

At times, when I hear you saying you have decided not to bed down any women until after you are married, I liken it to my decision not to cheat on Nancy by having an affair with Jennifer Lopez or Jessica Alba.

Well I'll try and give you my thought process here. First thing I run into, is "bed down." What the heck is bed down? I just assumed having sex, but I've never heard such a term. Secondly, I don't know who Nancy is, I assume it's your wife because of the context, but it still adds to the overall aurora that I don't know what the heck is going on. Secondly, in my mind, conditional reasoning rarely works with subjects like cheating and such. The thought that you actually would cheat on your wife if the situation was right never even crossed my mind.

Frank Apisa wrote:

I suspect another component is that the action is not coming your way for one reason or another.

'Fraid not. The rules of the relationship are laid out before the relationship even begins; therefore, the expectation of sex is nonexistent.

Frank Apisa wrote:

At other times, I liken it to my decision not to try skydiving or hang gliding, because it would take time away from my golf.

Obviously I picked up on the fact that golf isn't the real reason, but why exactly am I supposed to assume that fear is? I personally have never sky dived because I've never really had an opportunity to and I've never really had the money to do either of those things. So I didn't pick up on the idea of fear, which led me astray.

Frank Apisa wrote:

From some of the things you've said, I suspect having sex with a woman scares you -- and that is why I likened it to my sarcasm.

It does scare me, I'll give you that.

Frank Apisa wrote:

I would like to mention something new here -- and it has nothing to do with sex.

You are in college.

You should have been able to look at what I wrote and determined my message without any explanations.

Yeah I should, but being an engineering major does give me some leeway in this department. I'll work on my reading comprehension though. I guess in communication of this manner I just expect the responses to be straightforward since the point of talking is to bring a mutual understanding of our differences together to assess an issue. I guess I just thought that you would attempt to reduce the amount of assumptions I would have to make so you could get your point across clearer, over writing creatively.

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Creepy, creepy, creepy, it's been like a train wreck. I wanted to stop reading but I couldn't.

Turning to seriousness, I suggest going to talk to a counselor or therapist. My reasoning is because of your level of obsessiveness on this issue of virginity. To me this indicates a compulsion to justify an obsession due to trauma.

The term creepy has appeared many times in this thread. The reason many of us find this creepy is because of the degree of defense you put up, furthered by the notion that you seem to want to convert people to your view point, or are at least seeking affirmation in order to justify your views. If this thread started out as "Pro's and Con's of Pre-Marital Sex" I don't think things would have gone quite the same way.

I practiced abstinence till I was 20 as well (I'm a male for those of you wondering), however I never asked anyone's opinion on it, nor preached the word of abstinence. It was purely my choice. Why did I choose to end my virginity? Because I was with someone I wanted to be ultimately close with. I wasn't unafraid of allowing myself to be vulnerable to her. You asked why people would choose to have sex, I can't say why all people do, but I can tell you my reasons.

Everyone in the world is "special" and among those people there are people who are beautiful and amazing. I chose to wait until I felt like I was more of a person and the people around me matured, because I wanted to form that deeper connection with the first person I was with. I thought that, that person might be the person I married, but marriage is much more complicated than sex, and in the end sex doesn't really have much barring on marriage (not to be confused with being married) other than it being an important aspect of a relationship.

I can't, even in my greatest arrogance, believe that of all these amazing people in the world that only one is disserving of my companionship. Are all people worthy? No. Is there a set figure? Are there a number of partners? No, and no. People love, trust, and connect with whomever they do. Your lack of experience and self centered perspective shows that you have never been in a committed relationship. Your concern is so heavily focused on your virginity I can't imagine that you know what it's like to be totally vulnerable to someone in a real and true relationship. Do I feel that my loss of virginity affects anything negatively? No. I have had amazing experiences with amazing people that will be with me forever. So why do I have sex now? Because there are amazing things that have happened in my life, and no I couldn't have just talked to them. I also cannot possible imagine "owning" someone like that. "You are the one and only." That seems so destructive to put so much pressure on someone, as well as "owning" them in the sense that YOU have CHOSEN (or allowed/accepted) them to be the one. You will find that relationships do not exist in a bubble; they can't, and will not exist that way. Confining yourself to another person in such a way will destroy the both of you over time. Does this happen just because you didn't sleep with other people first? Possibly yes. Your lack of experience of absolutely powerful physical and emotional relationships will leave you unprepared for the realities of what makes a good relationship.

On a side note I'd also like to address the "street talk" about sex. Street talk is harmless fun. You do not hear people on the street or in bars talking about sex in a deeply emotional way, because it's not the place to do so. It doesn't necessitate masculinity or posturing. I've been in many a situation where I'll be hanging out with friends or acquaintances, male and female, just shooting the sh*t, and have often add comments about my freaky ex or my friend who had a three-some or something of that nature. There is nothing wrong with talking about the surface level of things with people. Is everything that comes out of your mouth a deep and honest reflection of your inner most feelings manifested through educated and crafted dialog? I doubt it. Taking offense at such things or interpreting them as the primary tool for judging people and their opinion on any given matter is foolish.

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Your screen name describes you to a tee.

Congratulations.

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Are you referring to my screen name?

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fullofmalarkey9 wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
You should have been able to look at what I wrote and determined my message without any explanations.

Yeah I should, but being an engineering major does give me some leeway in this department. I'll work on my reading comprehension though. I guess in communication of this manner I just expect the responses to be straightforward since the point of talking is to bring a mutual understanding of our differences together to assess an issue. I guess I just thought that you would attempt to reduce the amount of assumptions I would have to make so you could get your point across clearer, over writing creatively.

Hehhehheh ... clever.

And, in fact, fit to be integrated wholesale in the website's guidelines on how to properly address new visitors and their questions ... ;-)

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.OZ. wrote:

Turning to seriousness, I suggest going to talk to a counselor or therapist. My reasoning is because of your level of obsessiveness on this issue of virginity. To me this indicates a compulsion to justify an obsession due to trauma.

Or it could just be the obvious reason of being interested in the thought process of virgins and non-virgins alike. And since this thread is about virginity, a continued and detailed discourse on the subject is to be expected. Call it obsessive if you will, but I would use the word curiosity to describe it. Also, my curiosity is not limited to this subject at all, this just happened to be something on my mind since one of my friends who I thought would remain a virgin until marriage told me she had sex a while ago. So we started talking about it, and it started making me question why I would ever want to stay a virgin.

So I decided to come on here and try to plug the idea of virginity, which was my mistake. Obviously the first impression everyone got was that I was attacking and arrogant. And they were right. So I have tried, over the course of the thread to change it into a open discussion about virginity... so I hope that's the vibe y'all still get.

.OZ. wrote:

The reason many of us find this creepy is because of the degree of defense you put up, furthered by the notion that you seem to want to convert people to your view point, or are at least seeking affirmation in order to justify your views. If this thread started out as "Pro's and Con's of Pre-Marital Sex" I don't think things would have gone quite the same way..

Yeah I understand that I made a mistake in the way I approached the whole thread, but as I said... I am trying to change the course of the thread a little bit. I'm not trying specifically to convert people, but I do think I am trying to affirm my thoughts. I'll definitely give ya that.

.OZ. wrote:

I practiced abstinence till I was 20 as well (I'm a male for those of you wondering), however I never asked anyone's opinion on it, nor preached the word of abstinence. It was purely my choice. Why did I choose to end my virginity? Because I was with someone I wanted to be ultimately close with. I wasn't unafraid of allowing myself to be vulnerable to her. You asked why people would choose to have sex, I can't say why all people do, but I can tell you my reasons.

Everyone in the world is "special" and among those people there are people who are beautiful and amazing. I chose to wait until I felt like I was more of a person and the people around me matured, because I wanted to form that deeper connection with the first person I was with. I thought that, that person might be the person I married, but marriage is much more complicated than sex, and in the end sex doesn't really have much barring on marriage (not to be confused with being married) other than it being an important aspect of a relationship.

Great response, that's exactly the sort of discussion I was hoping for. In it you said that you wanted to be ultimately close with the person, so I think it's fair to assume that you had very strong feelings for the girl. I am curious as to one thing though, are you saying that marriage requires stronger feelings than sex? I've always viewed them as equivalent in my mind. I.E.: If I feel strong enough about someone to have sex with them, then in turn I must also feel strong enough about them to marry them. And if circumstances prevent you from marriage, that is where the decision to wait or not comes in.

.OZ. wrote:

I can't, even in my greatest arrogance, believe that of all these amazing people in the world that only one is disserving of my companionship. Are all people worthy? No. Is there a set figure? Are there a number of partners? No, and no. People love, trust, and connect with whomever they do. Your lack of experience and self centered perspective shows that you have never been in a committed relationship.

Um, look at the post that I made at 1:39pm, when I acknowledged that, "I have many other theories that aren't as idealistic--for example I believe that if you wanted to you could marry 85% of the people you meet and be equally happy in life."

.OZ. wrote:

Your concern is so heavily focused on your virginity I can't imagine that you know what it's like to be totally vulnerable to someone in a real and true relationship.

I would contend that I do, but I honestly don't think you would believe me if I tried to justify it. Looks like you'll just have to take my word at what it is.

.OZ. wrote:

Confining yourself to another person in such a way will destroy the both of you over time.

Just because you are emotionally claustrophobic doesn't mean that it is the bain of relationships. :p

.OZ. wrote:

Does this happen just because you didn't sleep with other people first? Possibly yes. Your lack of experience of absolutely powerful physical and emotional relationships will leave you unprepared for the realities of what makes a good relationship.

All I'll say to this is that when I think of important relationship traits. The act of sex does not come to mind. I've already conceded that the lack of sex will make you a poor lover at the beginning. In my example about Spanish I addressed this though.

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Sigh, this thread is making me want to revive my old T-Shirt.

It read "Virginity is a disease, get your vaccinations here" and had an arrow.. nemind, it was silly but so is this obsession.

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.OZ. wrote:

Are you referring to my screen name?

No.

Apparently you managed to post as I was writing.

My remark was addressed to FullofMarlarkey.

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fullofmalarkey9 wrote:

All I'll say to this is that when I think of important relationship traits. The act of sex does not come to mind.

Oh, sex is totally important in a relationship! It's the ultimate connection ... well, imho. And you can stumble badly, too. In a way, its the ultimate litmus test - can you really "listen" to the other and "tell" her about yourself?

Good sex, I guess (listen to me talking here - as if I was the big expert here or something Rolling Eyes

), really takes a level of comfort/confidence in yourself, and trust in the other ...

(Note, on an aside, that you can also totally trust a partner you are only with for the sex - if you both know it, and feel you can trust the other to not want more yet want all of this unconditionally, that is)

... anyway, what I was saying, yeh - litmus test ... sex is very cool yet quite tricky ... it can just as easily be wrong as be really right ... you've got to dare and not be afraid, yet also be careful and listen well ... its at least as tricky as being able to talk well together.

I'll give you this, in terms of "learning together" with the one you love (if you're still a virgin) - in terms of litmus tests - if you really love and trust and appreciate the other, you shouldn't have trouble learning to do it well ... (tho its sure easier if at least one of the two knows whats in the bag and what ya can do with it all ;-))

Still, even with the best intentions and the deepest love, there is something like sexual incompatibility, I think ... I once had this gf, she was ... very passive. I dont mind being passive myself, either. And I mean, you can switch roles and stuff for each others' sake a little bit and all, but you know, you can still be left frustrated ... and its really sad if you cant be the one the other is yearning for - or vice versa. And that can happen even when you sincerely love each other, and it can get badly in the way.

Solution? None, really, not so simple. Cause you're going to ask, well, would you really leave the person you love just cause of the sex not working out? (Well, you did ask). And I'd say, no, of course not, not just for that, if you really love each other (though - if its for the rest of your life ... hum). But, in reality, it can be part of growing apart or starting to yearn for that something else, that must be out there, somewhere ... I'd bet it plays at least a secondary role in some divorces.

Its just one of many reasons why I'd personally say it's better to try settling together in a real, complete relationship, first, and only marry later, when you've seen that everything really works out, together, also after the first rush of falling in love has subsided ... thats just me, though.

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What did your old t-shirt say, Craven? ;-)

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Read the small print. ;-)

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I was going to ask the same question, Nimh, but when I hit the quote button, suddenly the small print became full sized.

Up 'til then, I thought it was just a line drawn.

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nimh wrote:

I can imagine that. But, err, now you have me confused. Is it pre-marital sex that you object to, or sex prior to "having reached a proper emotional state in the relationship"?

Actually, I really don't know what I object to. The problem I have is that I don't see why people wouldn't want to go through the journey of the most intimate physical thing they can do with the person they will spend the rest of their lives with.
(Note, I know my views and motives are slightly changing throughout this thread. Please don't view it as being inconsistent, more that I'm revising/learning/changing my views along the way.)

nimh wrote:

Sadly though, not everyone one falls in love with makes for a good life partner. Much like with sex, it might pay off to explore such relationships, what they are like and what pitfalls and presents they bring, before choosing to go down the aisle for your wedding vows. To put it bluntly, try out before you buy. There's enough people getting divorced already.

Hmmmmm, I think what you said is very interesting. However, I do have a question. Is a relationship incomplete without sex? To me it seems like y'all are saying the only way to fully understand a relationships dynamics is to have sex. Is that a correct deduction?

nimh wrote:

People almost always - consciously or subconsciously - expect some kind of return. :-(

Well I do hope that I am doing some completely selfless things in my life. But I cannot say for certain, as you said, subconsciously I might have motives I don't realize. But I am very happy that you put a sad face next to it none-the-less.

nimh wrote:

And you, in particular, had previously described in some detail that, should your wife-to-be not have been repaying the favour, so to say (i.e., she wasn't a virgin anymore), it would take many deep discussions and "absolute" openness and honesty about her experiences for you to be able to accept (i.e., forgive) that. Thats what ceili, I think, called the "interrogations" you would submit your new wife to, and I must admit I had the same (alarming) association. It sounded like it would be something you'd be (instinctively, at least) blaming her for.

Well I'd say that I definitely have issues with selfishness and I would need to understand what she was thinking when she did it. If nothing else, these talks are good to have with people because you can learn so many things about them which do not relate to the issue at hand. Also, the way I value and approach relationships, I guarantee I would be having this talk with her as her friend. So the subject would also give me the chance to look to see whether she would be compatible with me. aka whether she would be ok with abstaining from sex until marriage in a potential relationship.

nimh wrote:

...If you choose to remain virgin because that's what you consider the right thing for you to do, then that's what you should do... But then whence the moralising about her not having made the same choice? Apparently you do expect something back for your sacrifice, is what I deduced - namely, that she would have made the same sacrifice - or, if she hadn't, that she'd be apologetic about it, eager for you to excuse her for it. I may have been wrong - you tell me!

I used the ellipses to shorten it up, but I think I kept the essence of it. Actually, I hold quite the opposite expectation. I don't know many
who chooses to be a virgin for reasons other than religion, STD's, or pregnancy. My expectation is that she will have had sex, or she will have waited for one of the above reasons. Do I hope/wish that she would wait for similar reasons as I? Certainly. But again, since I don't know many people who feel like I do towards sex, that is definitely not the expectation.

You could make the claim, however, that when I posted my crusade style opening remarks in this topic that I was hoping to change people so I could change that expectation, but I think that would be a stretch.

nimh wrote:

Still, you never know, with love ... and I'd hate for you to end up sternly submitting your wife to your standards on this matter ... that's all ;-).

That is probably my biggest fault. I don't think they should live they way I live, but I do think they should think about why they do what they do, and sometimes that's asking too much.

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A good lover tries to please their partner, consider their needs.

A good relationship is one where the others look out for their partner, considers their needs.

Relationships should be symbiotic. Sex is part of why you will probably chose to spend your life with one partner, and is a very important part of a successful marriage.

By oz saying claustrophopic, I think he meant that you would need to give the girl her space, not smother her. All this talk about sharing every single experience is kind of creepy. You need to be a solid, distinct individual to have a good relationship. You do not become one with your partner, seeing out of the same eyes. You two distinct individuals who become partners. It is creepy to assume you would share every thought, every past experience, every waking moment...
You will share because you want to share, when your partner wants to hear it. You will have different tastes and prefereces, different experiences, different hobbies, and you will remain separate people, with parts of your life which remain seperate.
You will join bodies in the act of sex - but you are still individuals, with seperate brains, feelings, and sensory inputs.
Being married doesn't make you a borg.

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Virginity is not an obligation

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