13
   

Who is the most persecuted religion?

 
 
NealNealNeal
 
  -1  
Sun 15 May, 2022 01:10 pm
@bulmabriefs144,
Bulma,
The afterlife is also quite important to Evangelical Christians too. Many devote their lives helping others accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. They also forsake some of the pleasures of life to help others who have physical and psychological needs. And they are willing to suffer so that they can develop character in their lives. And there is an emphasis of the Spiritual over the Material.
The "holy war" for Christians is against Satan and his demons, not against other people.
While considered a "cult" and not true Christianity, still Jehovah Witnesses will not accept blood transfusions.
So, there is some similarities between Christians and Muslims.
Theo202
 
  -2  
Sun 15 May, 2022 01:15 pm
@bulmabriefs144,
Quote:
I am willing to place betting odds that you have a crappy copy of the Bible.

There are only crappy translations.

"From prison and from judgment he was taken"

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/isaiah/53-8.htm
Theo202
 
  -1  
Sun 15 May, 2022 01:42 pm
@NealNealNeal,
Quote:
Many devote their lives helping others accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior.


Isaiah43:11, Hosea 13:4
0 Replies
 
bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Sun 15 May, 2022 02:27 pm
@Theo202,
There are crappy Bibles too.

https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/bible-illuminated-sunbeam-ancient-torn-70997492.jpg

Here's a crappy Bible.

@NealNealNeal, we are instructed to be in the world, but not of the world. This means we do not neglect to pay our taxes, unless of course we are poor enough that they are unlikely to come after us. Likewise, we fix that kitchen sink before it explodes, and we try to maintain our health.

Do the taxes, kitchen sink, or our body weight matter in the grand scheme of things? No, but the passage in Corinthians is relevant.
Quote:
"Everything is permissible for me," but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me," but I will not be mastered by anything.


While it is fine to live in preparation of the afterlife, the Muslims neglect their needs, and so are mastered by their jealousy of other cultures and their depression about the state of their life. Just as if you ruined your health, you would spend your last days preoccupied by thoughts of cancer, the average Muslim has ruined their countries.

I encountered this in a manga last night.

So this Muslim country (Zatch Bell 2, btw) is so poor that everyone has a terrible scarcity.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/789001531927298048/975244093108146206/9.jpg
This is despite their town having an archaeologist paid by the government. So what's going on here?
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/789001531927298048/975244093363990528/18.jpg
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/789001531927298048/975244093640831056/19.jpg
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/789001531927298048/975244093884076092/20.jpg

Well, as it turns out, much like what was described about Islam in the book Nomad by a former Muslim. An attitude where every money that comes their way is a blessing from God, inability to budget, and a sense of fatalism about one's decisions. You may say, "But hold up, isn't all good fortune a blessing from God?" No, not if has strings attached. Not if the money needs to be spent wisely, and they instead treat it as theirs to do with as they want. Nomad's author talks about how the immigration office gave them what was effectively a loan. They treated it as a gift with no terms. Actually, the money for to last them 5 months, and they spent it in a single day, buying decorations for their house. Come time to pay up, they'll be in alot of trouble.

Now, on the surface, this manga seems to be okay. Only, they had bought all food for right now, leaving none for that farm of theirs (irrigation, better tools, etc). Moreover, any excess food will go bad, because they bought for a feast. After that, he'll need to give them more money because they spent the load. But wait, he said, "It's all the money I have saved up over the last few years." She spent zero energy planning for the future. Just one big feast, and alot of extra food in storage. After that, they'll go hungry again.

This is apparently a recurring problem among Islam, because they neglect the real world. Are they really concerned with the spiritual world? Not after their children are starving. They are struggling, and they are blaming other people for their problems (usually the West).

Be in the world, but not of the world.
Manage your daily affairs and don't get mastered by worries, but be mindful of the temporary nature of this world.
Theo202
 
  -1  
Sun 15 May, 2022 05:36 pm
@bulmabriefs144,
Quote:
There are crappy Bibles too.

The point is that there's no prophetic support for the Christian doctrine of the crucifixion. The doctrine originated with the same group who killed prophets in the past.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Sun 15 May, 2022 08:48 pm
@Theo202,
There is no prophetic support, because the people who hated people most outright changed the Bible to strike it from the record.

The Jewish priests call Jesus "Yeshu." Yeshu should stand for Yeshua Ben Yussuf (though actually, it should be Yeshua Ben Miriam, because he had no male genes). But no, it's an acronym. YESHU stands for Yimach Shmo Uzichro ("may his name be blotted out").
https://jewsforjesus.org/publications/newsletter/newsletter-mar-2008/yeshua-or-yeshu/

Many Jews don't know this. But you can bet their rabbis do, and fully stand behind it. The average Jew was indifferent about Jesus. In fact, many of them tossed palm branches in his path and treated him like the Messiah. The Pharisees on the other hand turned the crowd against him, and sold him out to the Romans. The Pharisees cut a deal...

Matthew 26
Quote:
When Jesus had finished saying all these things, he said to his disciples, 2 “As you know, the Passover is two days away—and the Son of Man will be handed over to be crucified.”

3 Then the chief priests and the elders of the people assembled in the palace of the high priest, whose name was Caiaphas, 4 and they schemed to arrest Jesus secretly and kill him. 5 “But not during the festival,” they said, “or there may be a riot among the people.”


Matthew 28
Quote:
11 While the women were on their way, some of the guards went into the city and reported to the chief priests everything that had happened. 12 When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, 13 telling them, “You are to say, ‘His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.’ 14 If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble.” 15 So the soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has been widely circulated among the Jews to this very day.


As for the "no evidence" thing, yeahhhh no.

https://www.torahapologetics.com/apologetics--daily-life/january-22nd-2016
Quote:


...For starters, there is no doubting that a small handful of readings in the Hebrew Masoretic Text have been altered at some point. Some, no doubt, on purpose, while others were more likely accidental. We can see these alterations by comparing the Masoretic not only to the LXX, but also to the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS), the Samaritan Torah (ST), the Syriac Peshitta (SP), and the Latin Vulgate. Not only that, but in a number of these we have quotes from the NT writers that seem to quote the verse from a text other than the Masoretic.

So I will not be claiming the Masoretic text is 100% infallible. But then, without any of the autographs, I do not believe any of the texts we have today are completely infallible. I know, that may wreck your world. But, before you prepare to stone me, please let me explain. I personally believe that in the era we are now in, we have access to the 100% truth. I truly believe that. However, accessing the 100% truth may take a lot of effort. Although I do not believe any one text contains the entirely original reading, I believe that by comparing these texts and using all the evidence available to us, that we will indeed be able to achieve an original-esque text. I will explain that in this article, as well. For now, how about an example of somewhere we know the Masoretic is corrupt?

Psalm 22:16 (Shem Qodesh Version) - For dogs have surrounded me. A company of evildoers have enclosed me. They have pierced my hands and feet.

Well that seems straightforward, right? Yet the SQV uses the text of the LXX, DSS, SP, and LV. A direct translation of the Masoretic can be found in the JPS Tanakh:

Psalm 22:16 (Jewish Publication Society) - For dogs have encompassed me; A company of evil-doers have enclosed me; Like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet.[b/]

See the difference? And there is a reason for that, as well. You see, the Masoretic text uses the word כָּאֲרִי (ka'ari) here. This is the word ארי (ari), meaning "lion" with the kaf (כ) prefix, meaning "like/as."

So that makes sense then, right? Yet we know this verse is a rather strong reference to Yeshua's death on the tree. His hands and feet really WERE pierced. Yeshua even referenced this verse when He cried out, "My El My El, why have You forsaken Me?" (see 22:1). So what is the deal with the "lion" reference, then? Well, here is how the other versions work out.

Psalm 22:16 (Syriac Peshitta) – For dogs have encompassed me, and a congregation of evil ones has gone around me. They pierced my hands and feet.

Here, the word in question in Syriac is בזעו (b'za), meaning "to rend, dig, pierce." Now if this was meant to read "lion" it would use the word אריא (arya), but it does not. Therefore, it clearly reads, "pierce" and not "lion."

Psalm 22:16 (Greek Septuagint) - For many dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked doers has beset me round: they pierced my hands and my feet.

Here the word for "pierced" is the Greek word ωρυξεν (oruxen), which means again, "to dig." See Matthew 25:18 or Mark 12:1 for an example of how this word is used in the NT (it is translated as "dug" past tense). Note this is not the word λεων (leon), which means "lion."

Psalm 22:16 (Latin Vulgate) - For many dogs have encompassed me: the council of the malignant hath besieged me. They have dug my hands and feet.

The word for "dug" here in Latin is vinxerunt, which literally means "to dig, to bore." Notice that Jerome chose this word, and not the Latin word for "lion" which is leo.

Psalm 22:16 (Dead Sea Scrolls) - For dogs have surrounded me. A company of evildoers have enclosed me. They have pierced my hands and feet.

Here is where we find a major difference. This is the best comparison we have (in my opinion), because the Dead Sea Scrolls are Hebrew, and therefore they are not a translation, but a copy of the Hebrew text. They also predate the Masoretic by over 1,000 years.

While the other versions are translations and therefore can only be counted as secondary witnesses, the DSS should be counted as a primary witness. And in them, we find two different spellings of the word in question. Most notably, however, neither of these two spellings spell ari (lion).

These two words are: כרו (karu, found in 4QPsf), and כארו (ka'aru, found in Nahal Hever, dated to about the 1st century CE). These two spellings are the same word, the proper spelling of which is כארו. This is a form of the word כרה (karah), which means "to dig" as it is used in Gen. 26:25 to describe the digging of a well.


(כָּאֲרִי) ka'ari - lion
(כרו ) karu- to dig

They don't look anything alike. Now, I could believe (כָּאֲרִי) ka'ari got mixed up with ( כארו ) ka'aru due to a smudge or something. But after looking at other languages, they have the meaning that doesn't match up with that.

Syriacs, Dead Sea Scrolls (which are 1000 years older than the so-called "reliable Hebrew source"), Latin, Greek, and other Hebrew translations. All of them agree that it is some variation of dig/pierce/cut into. In about five different languages.

Centuries later, rabbis are still making excuses against Jesus.
https://jewsforjudaism.ca/why-jesus-is-not-the-jewish-messiah/
They use false text translation and alot of excuses about how the "Messiah" is supposed to be a warrior king. Why? Because your bloodthirsty priests tell you that Jesus can't be the one, because he wanted to make nice with all people? They know better than God, I guess, and they will tell anyone who asks that they know what the prophecy really said. What they really knew was that they hated Jesus.
Theo202
 
  -1  
Sun 15 May, 2022 09:34 pm
@bulmabriefs144,
If they wanted his name to be blotted out, and they had the ability to change the record, then why didn't they do that instead of leaving Isaiah 53, Micah 5:2, Zechariah 9:9, etc?

Also, you have ignored the point that Psalm 22 can't be about the Messiah because the crucified man's low self-esteem: "But I [am] a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people"
Theo202
 
  -1  
Mon 16 May, 2022 12:32 am
@bulmabriefs144,
Quote:
So what is the deal with the "lion" reference, then?


1: the words of my roaring
14: a ravening and a roaring lion.
22: Save me from the lion's mouth

Resurrection on the third day:

Hosea 5:14-6:2
For I [will be] unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, [even] I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue [him].
I will go [and] return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.
Come, and let us return unto YHWH: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Revelation 5:5
bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Mon 16 May, 2022 06:49 am
@Theo202,
Yeah, yeah. The lion is not as clear cut as you think. It is strong powerful animal with a great deal of nobility. But it also represents an autocratic dictator. God warns against such a leader, the sort that promises "hope" and "change" and "that we will conquer our enemies".

(From a Chick Tract,I thought it fit the theme)
https://www.chick.com/images/tracts/0065/0065_08.gif?
(They win the revolution, but...)
https://www.chick.com/images/tracts/0065/0065_15.gif?
https://www.chick.com/images/tracts/0065/0065_19.gif?
https://www.chick.com/images/tracts/0065/0065_20.gif?

Here's what God says.
Quote:
These will be the ways of the king who will reign over you: he will take your sons and appoint them to his chariots and to be his horsemen and to run before his chariots. 12 And he will appoint for himself commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and some to plow his ground and to reap his harvest, and to make his implements of war and the equipment of his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive orchards and give them to his servants. 15 He will take the tenth of your grain and of your vineyards and give it to his officers and to his servants. 16 He will take your male servants and female servants and the best of your young men[a] and your donkeys, and put them to his work. 17 He will take the tenth of your flocks, and you shall be his slaves.


They used the word lion in Psalm 22, even though it doesn't make any sense, because the Masoretes want to remind you of a false image of Messiah as lion. It's a subliminal image.

But the Messiah is God's leader. And God thinks this about kings, that they rule with an iron rod, and crush their own people at least as often as their enemies. What would God's king be like then? Why he'd be like a Lamb, a king willing to sacrifice himself for his people. I suddenly realize why I hate CS Lewis so much. All this Aslan crap. Even with textual meddling, this unambiguously speaks of someone willing to give his life on behalf of others.

https://escalator2.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/lamb-of-god.jpg?resize=900%2C900

A sacrificial Lamb. Hosea also, "I desire mercy not sacrifice " yet the Pharisees continued to try to sacrifice to cover their sins up to the day when they couldn't anymore. When the sacrifice was made, the veil was ripped, and their magic tricks were exposed as the scam they are.
Moses, Elijah, and many of God's prophets had genuine faith and followed God's message. The temple leaders on the other hand, were increasingly corrupt, and performing a fraud against their people. A fraud that continues to this day. Righteous? These people? If a lion came, it should have gobbled them up instead of their enemies, instead a lamb bleated out their sins. And then blotted them out by being the ultimate sacrifice.

bulmabriefs144
 
  -2  
Mon 16 May, 2022 07:17 am
@Theo202,
Because it's more difficult to remove entire books than you think.

If you tore Leviticus out of the Bible for instance, you'd have a Jefferson Bible. Everyone else would know the canon, and would dispute your canon, so you wouldn't be able to get away with it. However, forcing a book as part of canon (say, Revelation) is a much easier sell, and it's been an uphill struggle over the years to keep extra books like Sirach or Macabees out. But while you're focusing on entire books, you know what is even easier?

Making sneaky changes to the text. Changing one word to a similar looking word. Saying that the word is כָּאֲרִי instead of כארו . Hebrew is a dumb language, btw. No vowels until much later, and a stroke or two of the pen makes a completely different word. The only English letters that look similar are I and l, or O and 0. How often does that become reIevant? lt's usually obvi0us what you intend even if you use the wrong symbol. Meanwhile, you can very easily swap out the word for dig or penetrate for lion, you have a problem with your language. And don't get me started on the stupid dots that they had to add in, as their language had no vowels for centuries.

In a text of thousands of pages, making sure errors don't creep in is hard. And malicious editors wield far more power this way than trying to remove the text entirely. Just make a crap edit on a line you don't like, or skip that line by "accident."

The people in charge were scholars, not rulers. They couldn't demand new canon. But they could alter the text, and it would be difficult until later for people to understand "You don't have that quote here, because your text is numbered differently and has that word instead here." I've seen many Bibles with unconvincing footnotes, or such terrible spelling or grammar that the message was lost.
0 Replies
 
Theo202
 
  -1  
Mon 16 May, 2022 04:04 pm
@bulmabriefs144,
Quote:
The lion is not as clear cut as you think.

And you think that a Chick Tract would add clarity?

Quote:
They used the word lion in Psalm 22, even though it doesn't make any sense, because the Masoretes want to remind you of a false image of Messiah as lion.

But in verse 1, "my roaring" doesn't give a false image?
NealNealNeal
 
  -1  
Mon 16 May, 2022 04:21 pm
@bulmabriefs144,
I remember studying the facts you stated years ago. This is part of the reason I accepted Jesus as my Messiah.
May I note that Isaiah 52 starts the description of the Messiah.
0 Replies
 
NealNealNeal
 
  -1  
Mon 16 May, 2022 04:33 pm
@Theo202,
Theo202 wrote:

If they wanted his name to be blotted out, and they had the ability to change the record, then why didn't they do that instead of leaving Isaiah 53, Micah 5:2, Zechariah 9:9, etc?

Also, you have ignored the point that Psalm 22 can't be about the Messiah because the crucified man's low self-esteem: "But I [am] a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people"


There ARE prophecies that deal with Jesus' second coming (second Advent). Jesus will be a conquering hero for Israel's sake. The final book of the Bible gives record of this.
Theo202
 
  -1  
Mon 16 May, 2022 06:17 pm
@NealNealNeal,
That's only a statement of faith.

In that day shall YHWH defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as Elohim, as the angel of YHWH before them.
Zechariah 12:8
0 Replies
 
The Anointed
 
  -1  
Mon 16 May, 2022 06:47 pm
@NealNealNeal,
Quote:
There ARE prophecies that deal with Jesus' second coming (second Advent). Jesus will be a conquering hero for Israel's sake. The final book of the Bible gives record of this.


Hebrews 9:28; So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of "MANY"; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, "but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him."

Are you waiting for him Neal?
bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Mon 16 May, 2022 07:27 pm
@Theo202,
No.

Adding a Chick Tract was to show you that the freedom fighter revolutionaries sometimes turns around and shoots you after taking care of your enemies.
Why you don't hire freedom fighters for the job of being the Messiah.

Jews tell all kinds of stories as to where this idea of ruling Messiah came from, but where it really came from? Maccabees.

Quote:
Although many of the Jewish community were at this point Hellenized, the persecution of the Jewish people and the destruction of practicing Judaism united the Jewish people in Judea. The Jewish people needed someone to lead them. When Antiochus sent some of his officers to the town of Modiin to lay down his tyranny and enact the oppressive laws that he had enforced, he was met by a local Jewish country priest named Mattathias. This turned out to be a very portentous meeting. The country priest was ordered to fulfil his duty to the state and be the first to sacrifice an animal to an altar of an idol. He refused and when another Jewish man stepped forward to do it, he murdered the officer. Tearing down the idol, Mattathias preached "Let everyone who is zealous for the law and who stands by the covenant follow me!" (I Maccabees 2:27).


This was still fresh in the minds of most of the Jews of Israel, even though it happened a century or so before. Many of Jesus's disciples had names popular during the rebellion, and a few of them were zealots. The problem being, the Jews had basically retaken their country from foreign influence and idols, only to be saddled with an idol of their own making.

This thing.
http://www.fillmoregazette.com/files/imagecache/970wide/files/temple-05-28-09-1.jpg
Built around 19 BC, this awful monstrosity supplanted the original second Temple (Zerubbabel), walling off all the unwanted sinners and poor. This monument to untouchability steadily neglected the widows and orphans (recall that Jesus grew up in the shadow of this thing, as Bethlehem is about a 1/2 hour drive or a 2 hour walk), while being itself an idol. It continues to be an idol today. This.

"Do not make idols or set up carved images, or sacred pillars, or sculptured stones in your land so you may worship them. I am the LORD your God."

Even walls, buildings, and pillars are taboo. Like this big block over here.
https://il3.picdn.net/shutterstock/videos/13659968/thumb/1.jpg
0 Replies
 
NealNealNeal
 
  -1  
Mon 16 May, 2022 07:40 pm
@The Anointed,
The Anointed wrote:

Quote:
There ARE prophecies that deal with Jesus' second coming (second Advent). Jesus will be a conquering hero for Israel's sake. The final book of the Bible gives record of this.


Hebrews 9:28; So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of "MANY"; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, "but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him."

Are you waiting for him Neal?


I am surprised that a knowledgeable person like you does not know the answer to your question.
Please read Romans 11:11-24. Paul explains that the Gentile believers are "grafted in". Since I am a Jewish believer I am already in naturally.
Hebrews 9:28 says that the first part applies to me as part of the Universal Church in this age of Grace.
The second part applies to Jews at Jesus' 2nd coming when they realize that their Messiah has come and that HE IS JESUS!!!!!!!!
Theo202
 
  -1  
Mon 16 May, 2022 07:57 pm
@NealNealNeal,
Quote:
Since I am a Jewish believer I am already in naturally.

No, you could be cut off.

For example:
And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
Genesis 17:14

Quote:
Hebrews 9:28 says

The writer of Hebrews apparently thought that the Messiah was sacrificed (verse 26). This doctrine originated with Caiaphas, and was self serving since they had been accused of being children of those who killed the prophets. (John 11:49-53)
bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Mon 16 May, 2022 08:13 pm
@NealNealNeal,
The second coming is a lie.

The Apocalypse Deception

You can pay attention to Ezekiel, though I only find it marginally interesting. But the point is that Jesus fulfilled Ezekiel's Temple by smashing Herod's Temple, and notably taking down the veil.

The conquering hero thing is based on a misunderstanding of the promise that God already gave to the Jews. This is their covenant since Genesis. "I will bless those who bless you, and curse those who curse you." Jesus never promised the Jews would be spared misfortune or exile. The price of disobedience must be paid. But the Jews are given this blessing, and has been maintained. Jesus maintained and enforced their blessing, even though they never accepted him as Messiah.

More Chick Tracts, ahahahahahaha!!!
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/816868397836926996/975942899118276708/Chick1.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/816868397836926996/975942899466383401/Chick2.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/816868397836926996/975942899936161792/Chick3.png

This second coming is a credible lie, because it seems like the Jews have been neglected. But nothing could be further from the truth! God has not sheltered them from harm, but he has ensured that those that mistreat them actually do get punished. But Jesus came to save the world, not to judge it. Jesus is not coming again to act out some sick revenge fantasy that Jews have. He has already punished their enemies.
0 Replies
 
NealNealNeal
 
  0  
Mon 16 May, 2022 08:22 pm
@Theo202,
Theo202 wrote:

Quote:
Since I am a Jewish believer I am already in naturally.

No, you could be cut off.

For example:
And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
Genesis 17:14

Quote:
Hebrews 9:28 says

The writer of Hebrews apparently thought that the Messiah was sacrificed (verse 26). This doctrine originated with Caiaphas, and was self serving since they had been accused of being children of those
who killed the prophets. (John 11:49-53)


Let me clarify:
I am a Jewish believer IN JESUS.
Therefore I am doing what God wants me to do. I have recognized that the Jewish Messiah has come. Those Gentiles who accept Jesus as the Messiah that the Old Testament spoke about are "grafted in".
Jesus established a new covenant. Believers have been spiritually "circumcised" in the Age of Grace. Although people who Paul called "the Judiaisers" insisted that Gentile believers should be physically circumcised, ,Paul said that they were wrong.
 

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