13
   

Who is the most persecuted religion?

 
 
bulmabriefs144
 
  -2  
Tue 17 May, 2022 03:13 pm
@Theo202,
You've gotta stop looking at this as philosophies and "this person lied" but "that person rightly endorsed this, so they told the truth." These are people. Some of these people had encounters at Damascus, others had dreams about eating unclean food. Jesus spoke to them in different, and in fact often contradictory ways. They disagreed on certain matters, but they followed Jesus. These people had opinions.

And if Jesus endorsed the law as much as you think, why then did Jesus call the Pharisees "whitewashed tombs" and repeatedly condemn them for their strict adherence to the law?

Jesus understood the value of the law. But he also understood like is said later, that the law is a "curse." It was a curse to those who couldn't afford the sin offering of a dove, heifer, or lamb. It was a curse to those too busy to rest on the Sabbath (work or starve, because of high taxes from Rome). When Israel was independent, maybe they could get away with taking off on the Sabbath, but they were harassed by priests and bled dry by Rome. It was a curse to people who were lepers, who couldn't get hand-on attention because everyone screamed at them "unclean!" If you want to be treated and nobody will go near you, you're stuck. It was a curse to those with mental disorders ("demons") as they were treated almost as not human.

Jesus in particular tried to reform Sabbath law. Endorsed the law? Hardly!
- He proclaimed all foods clean when there were laws against pork.
- He gathered grain on the Sabbat/he healed the sick on the Sabbath/he even performed miracles on the Sabbath
- He smashed up Temple property, including tables for the sale of sacrifice animals
- He let an adulteress go free
- He replaced the law with two commandments

And of course there is the idea that he fulfilled the law. Jesus followed the law when it didn't interfere with mercy or justice. If it did, he tossed it away without a thought.
The Anointed
 
  -2  
Tue 17 May, 2022 03:31 pm
@Theo202,
Quote:
Oh, I comprehend it just fine. It's the empty rant of a Pauline apologist who can't deal with the fact that Paul lied about being appointed as a minister and witness on the road to Damascus.


You poor sick apostle hating child.

The venom of your hatred for Paul has been splattered throughout this thread. If you hate Paul so much because you erroneously believe that he Lied, how you must hate the apostle Peter, who is known by all, to have lied three times about knowing Jesus. See John 18: 15-27.

Peter, who in 2 Peter 3: 14-16, defended the apostle Paul against those, who Peter described as ignorant and mentally unstable people who twist and distort the scriptures to their own destruction.

As you wipe away the verbal dysentery that dribbles from your mouth, beg the Lord for his forgiveness, for your blind hatred toward the only apostle chosen by Jesus of Nazareth, after he had inherited his glorious incorruptible body of brilliant and blinding light.
NealNealNeal
 
  -1  
Tue 17 May, 2022 03:54 pm
@bulmabriefs144,
Bulma,
Jesus followed the Torah. What He did not follow was silly interpretations of the Torah such as minute interpretations of "what is work?".
bulmabriefs144
 
  -2  
Tue 17 May, 2022 04:01 pm
@Theo202,
The Anointed wrote:


Peter, who in 2 Peter 3: 14-16, defended the apostle Paul against those, who Peter described as ignorant and mentally unstable people who twist and distort the scriptures to their own destruction.



One of the things all of the early Church had a problem with was the Judaizers, the Christians who accepted Jesus as the Messiah, but basically pushed for a hard teaching that Jesus was gonna come again and give all those people who wronged us the judgement treatment. And who pushed for the continuation of Jewish law, starting with circumcision and continuing with every last teaching of the old Torah. This is what Paul says to that crap.

Quote:
I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God. For if righteousness comes through the law, Christ died for nothing.


See, this is Paul in context. He's not some lawless renegade. Dude, he was a former Pharisee, and practically foaming at the mouth when it came to killing Christians. And then, he just couldn't do it anymore! He was struck blind, and rather than leave him to his blindness, he is healed by the very people that he was gonna put to death himself. How is it that you think Paul distorted Christianity? That is the very consequence of receiving forgiveness for everything he did.

Curiously, both you and Anointed seem to have this of greater or less degrees, but you in particular are practically a Jew (or a Muslim, but I don't get that jihad vibe from your despite you being pretty darned zealous). I don't know what your deal is, but it's pretty clear from the writings of Paul that he is sincere.

Theo202
 
  -2  
Tue 17 May, 2022 04:23 pm
@The Anointed,
Quote:
You poor sick apostle hating child.

You've got nothing. Paul's declaration of being an apostle doesn't make him one.
0 Replies
 
Theo202
 
  -2  
Tue 17 May, 2022 04:37 pm
@bulmabriefs144,
Quote:
a hard teaching that Jesus was gonna come again and give all those people who wronged us the judgement treatment

Psalm 11:4. Melchizedek means "my king is justice".

Quote:
And who pushed for the continuation of Jewish law, starting with circumcision and continuing with every last teaching of the old Torah. This is what Paul says to that crap.

The crap that Jesus endorsed, you mean? Paul shat all over the law and paid for it with his life. He failed the test that James set for him by lying about it to the Sanhedrin.

But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
Acts 23:6

Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Acts 21:24

Quote:
How is it that you think Paul distorted Christianity?

He didn't, Christians got their name from his teaching.

Quote:
That is the very consequence of receiving forgiveness for everything he did.

What make you think that he was forgiven?

For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
Acts 9:16

Quote:
it's pretty clear from the writings of Paul that he is sincere.

"my lie" Romans 3:7
"being crafty, I caught you with guile" 2 Corinthians 12:16

Theo202
 
  -3  
Tue 17 May, 2022 04:39 pm
@bulmabriefs144,
Quote:
You've gotta stop looking at this as

No, I don't.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -2  
Tue 17 May, 2022 05:00 pm
@NealNealNeal,
Yeah, I know and you know that.
0 Replies
 
The Anointed
 
  -2  
Tue 17 May, 2022 05:26 pm
@Theo202,
Quote:
Paul shat all over the law and paid for it with his life.


And why did Peter, James the son of Zebedee, James the brother of Jesus, Jude, and other faithful followers of Jesus lose their lives?

Jesus warned all his followers that they would be arrested and handed over to be punished and be put to death, and that all nations would hate them, because of him, and that many would give up their faith and hate one another as you have done.

Because I cannot stand before your soul that burns with the hatred of your fellow man, I am sending you to that place where the eye cannot see and the ear cannot Hear.

Theo202
 
  -2  
Tue 17 May, 2022 06:38 pm
@The Anointed,
Quote:
And why did Peter, James the son of Zebedee, James the brother of Jesus, Jude, and other faithful followers of Jesus lose their lives?


Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man [that is] my fellow, saith YHWH of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
Zechariah 13:7

Quote:
I am sending you to that place where the eye cannot see and the ear cannot Hear.

What, again?
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Tue 17 May, 2022 08:00 pm
Preach the Gospel every day. If necessary, use words.

You three need to take this to heart.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Tue 17 May, 2022 08:31 pm
@Theo202,
There are people out there, myself excluded, who seem to believe that "justice" is about either vengeance or taking what's ours. The woke left crowd is the primary example, but a fair amount of Jews and Muslims.

Justice is not about payback. It is about looking beyond the stereotypes, and knowing the person. Old Man Zeke might scream at kids on a daily basis, and seem grumpy all the time. He might have also survived the Holocaust and privately donate huge sums to help the needy. Justice would not be spitting on his tomb and calling him a horrible person. Justice would be having a huge group of children that he helped set the record straight, and recognizing that he suffered plenty in this life and if he wants to be grumpy that's up to him.

Pilate said, "Why? What evil has he done?" Neither did Herod find anything wrong with him. Yet the crowd continued to tell why he should be crucified. I suppose they even threw the word justice in there, even though it was one of the most unjust things that ever happened. "This man claimed to be a Messiah, and we're pissed about it, so he should die."

Quote:
The crap that Jesus endorsed, you mean? Paul shat all over the law and paid for it with his life.


As opposed to Jesus who you say supposedly followed the law (if that isn't altering the text far worse than anything Paul supposedly did...) and also died? What's the distinction?

Quote:
But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
Acts 23:6


Including only one verse, divorced from context is to commit heresy.

Quote:
History and Etymology for heresy
Middle English heresie, borrowed from Anglo-French, borrowed (with assimilation to the suffix -ie -y entry 2) from Late Latin haeresis, heresis "school (of philosophy or theology), sect, belief contrary to church dogma," borrowed from Greek haíresis "act of taking, choice, course of action or thought, system of principles, sect, faction," from haireîn "to take, grasp, (middle voice) obtain, choose, prefer" (of obscure origin)


To pick and choose.

Very well, I shall give context to these passages.

Quote:
1Paul looked directly at the Sanhedrina and said, “Brothers, I have conducted myself before God in all good conscience to this day.”

2At this, the high priest Ananias ordered those standing near Paul to strike him on the mouth.

3Then Paul said to him, “God will strike you, you whitewashed wall! You sit here to judge me according to the law, yet you yourself violate the law by commanding that I be struck.”

4But those standing nearby said, “How dare you insult the high priest of God!”

5“Brothers,” Paul replied, “I was not aware that he was the high priest, for it is written: ‘Do not speak evil about the ruler of your people.’”

6Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees and others Pharisees, called out in the Sanhedrin, “Brothers, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee. It is because of my hope in the resurrection of the dead that I am on trial.”

7As soon as he had said this, a dispute broke out between the Pharisees and Sadducees, and the assembly was divided. 8For the Sadducees say that there is neither a resurrection, nor angels, nor spirits, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.

9A great clamor arose, and some scribes from the party of the Pharisees got up and contended sharply, “We find nothing wrong with this man. What if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him?” 10The dispute grew so violent that the commander was afraid they would tear Paul to pieces. He ordered the soldiers to go down and remove him by force and bring him into the barracks.

11The following night the Lord stood near Paul and said, “Take courage! As you have testified about Me in Jerusalem, so also you must testify in Rome.”

12When daylight came, the Jews formed a conspiracy and bound themselves with an oath not to eat or drink until they had killed Paul. 13More than forty of them were involved in this plot. 14They went to the chief priests and elders and said, “We have bound ourselves with a solemn oath not to eat anything until we have killed Paul. 15Now then, you and the Sanhedrin petition the commander to bring him down to you on the pretext of examining his case more carefully. We are ready to kill him on the way.”

16But when the son of Paul’s sister heard about the plot,c he went into the barracks and told Paul. 17Then Paul called one of the centurions and said, “Take this young man to the commander; he has something to tell him.”

18So the centurion took him to the commander and said, “Paul the prisoner sent and asked me to bring this young man to you. He has something to tell you.”

19The commander took the young man by the hand, drew him aside, and asked, “What do you need to tell me?”

20He answered, “The Jews have agreed to ask you to bring Paul to the Sanhedrin tomorrow on the pretext of acquiring more information about him. 21Do not let them persuade you, because more than forty men are waiting to ambush him. They have bound themselves with an oath not to eat or drink until they have killed him; they are ready now, awaiting your consent.”

22So the commander dismissed the young man and instructed him, “Do not tell anyone that you have reported this to me.”

23Then he called two of his centurions and said, “Prepare two hundred soldiers, seventy horsemen, and two hundred spearmen to go to Caesarea in the third hour of the night.d 24Provide mounts for Paul to take him safely to Governor Felix.”


Governor Felix talks to Paul, and agrees to hear his case. Paul says he returned to Jerusalem to give offerings, and they don't have any charges against him (unless his thoughts on the resurrection are a crime). Felix listens to him awhile, and delays the trial. Festus hears his defense. The Jews bring up false charges against him that he can't prove. Festus wants to please the Jews.

Quote:
8Then Paul made his defense: “I have committed no offense against the law of the Jews or against the temple or against Caesar.”

9But Festus, wishing to do the Jews a favor, said to Paul, “Are you willing to go up to Jerusalem to stand trial before me on these charges?”

10Paul replied, “I am standing before the judgment seat of Caesar, where I ought to be tried. I have done nothing wrong to the Jews, as you yourself know very well. 11If, however, I am guilty of anything worthy of death, I do not refuse to die. But if there is no truth to their accusations against me, no one has the right to hand me over to them. I appeal to Caesar!”

12Then Festus conferred with his council and replied, “You have appealed to Caesar. To Caesar you will go!”


Agrippa hears his case, while he waits to be sent to Caesar. Festus tells Agrippa that he too found nothing about him worthy of death. Once again, the people actually lying and bringing up false charges are the Jews. Festus doesn't even know what he's charged with. Paul proceeds to tell Agrippa how he was a Jew, and then Damascus happened. That he repented and tried to do deeds worthy of God. And that the Jews accuse him. Festus calls him insane. King Agrippa also finds nothing worthy of punishment. You say that he lied, and was punished for it. But on the contrary, I have found none of the people he talked to catch him in a lie or deem him worthy of punishment. They say what caused him not to be released was that he appealed to Caesar. He gets sent to Rome by ship, but Paul warns them that the trip will probably cost them their cargo (and maybe their lives). A three hour tour... The ship wrecks, some of the people want to kill the prisoners, but the guard spares Paul. He arrives in Italy. He talks to them, none of them have heard any serious charges against him, converts some and scolds some others. And he lived in a rented house for two years. Show me the part where he got caught lying and sentenced to death. Because that was the rest of Acts!

Quote:
"my lie" Romans 3:7


You literally took two words out of context.

Quote:
1What, then, is the advantage of being a Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? 2Much in every way. First of all, they have been entrusted with the very wordsa of God.
3What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? 4Certainly not! Let God be true and every man a liar. As it is written:
“So that You may be proved right when You speak
and victorious when You judge.”
5But if our unrighteousness highlights the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unjust to inflict His wrath on us? I am speaking in human terms. 6Certainly not! In that case, how could God judge the world? 7However, if my falsehood accentuates God’s truthfulness, to the increase of His glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?


Paul is not saying he is a liar. Paul is saying that next to God's truth everyone is a liar. His "lie" is the words that he says, which still cannot measure up to God's perfection. You are a liar.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -2  
Tue 17 May, 2022 08:32 pm
@Theo202,
Quote:
No, I...


You gotta!
0 Replies
 
Theo202
 
  -2  
Tue 17 May, 2022 08:51 pm
@bulmabriefs144,
Quote:
Justice is not about payback. It is about looking beyond the stereotypes, and knowing the person.

No, it is about payback, both in a positive and negative sense. Good for good and evil for evil.
Law looks to the intent. Persons are irrelevant.

For YHWH... regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:
Deuteronomy 10:17

Quote:
and also died?

It didn't happen, at least not how the Christians think it did. The crucifixion was part of a bigger plan, and sacrificing a Messiah wasn't part of that plan. It relates to the sealed book.

Quote:
Including only one verse, divorced from context is to commit heresy.

Rubbish. Do you really think that more context for Acts 23:6 would affect the point that Paul lied to them? If so, feel free to illustrate how that's the case.
0 Replies
 
Theo202
 
  -2  
Tue 17 May, 2022 08:52 pm
@bobsal u1553115,
You don't have the first clue what we need.
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Tue 17 May, 2022 09:28 pm
@Theo202,
Sure I do. Medication is quite high on the list.

First try some honest prayer. But keep that medication thing on your mind.
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Tue 17 May, 2022 09:33 pm
@bulmabriefs144,
Christ was as clear as can be: Love the Lord your G*D, be baptized, treat others as you would have yourself to treated, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, minister to the imprisoned. Admit to your sinful nature and seek forgiveness and healing.

Theo202
 
  -2  
Tue 17 May, 2022 11:15 pm
@bobsal u1553115,
Maybe there's someone here who gives a toss what you think, but I'm not that fool.
Theo202
 
  -2  
Tue 17 May, 2022 11:17 pm
@bobsal u1553115,
Quote:
Admit to your sinful nature and seek forgiveness and healing.

Where's your evidence of sin? The original sin doctrine is a major crock.
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Wed 18 May, 2022 07:10 am
@Theo202,
Of course you never read "Out of a sinful nature, ye are born." If this weren't true, why baptize infants of their sins?

Look it up and read the whole chapter.

In the mean time: pray. Get over your hatred of others.
0 Replies
 
 

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