13
   

Who is the most persecuted religion?

 
 
Miller
 
  0  
Wed 7 Nov, 2012 11:20 am
@djjd62,
I guess the IGNORE button on setanta doesn't work on quotes. Too bad.
0 Replies
 
Smileyrius
 
  2  
Wed 7 Nov, 2012 11:24 am
@Setanta,
To tell someone they are wrong is fine. The persecution oft comes in the manner and effort put into convincing someone they are wrong and what can follow. I say oft, but I am merely speaking of my own experience, and I do not believe myself to be special enough to be a sole case.

Do you believe that governments would not target certain religeous organisations for political reasons?
0 Replies
 
Theo202
 
  -2  
Sat 23 Apr, 2022 04:41 am
@BDV,
Quote:
6,000,000 where jewish


That originated from a Rabinnical interpretation of Leviticus 25:10 (the missing letter waw/vav has a numerical value of six). Threats relating to "six million Jews" were around well before the politics of the 1933-1939 Haavara Agreement.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -2  
Sat 30 Apr, 2022 07:20 am
@Theo202,
6 million of 11 million were Jewish. But this is one event, that is a drop in the bucket.

In 2021 alone, 360 million Christians were persecuted. You'd think this was a Holocaust even, but it was probably just routine slaughter of Christians in countries hostile to them.
https://www.opendoorsusa.org/christian-persecution/
The world is hostile to Christianity because it considers it a threat to established order. And this is when Christianity is not perverted or corrupted with false teachings.

The Orthodox church rejected Revelation, so did Luther. Both were made to go along with it by the status quo (the Catholic church, and various other religious groups). But you can tell Revelation is a false teaching because nearly every verse of it contradicts what Jesus said.
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/18226/christians-persecuted-worldwide
During the COVID "pandemic" churches were basically closed to worship for months and months. When they finally did open, leadership taught them a false gospel of cleanliness. But Jesus taught us to welcome sinners and strangers. To care for the friendless, the wretched, and the poor.
Theo202
 
  -3  
Sun 1 May, 2022 01:35 am
@bulmabriefs144,
Quote:
6 million of 11 million were Jewish.

The point is that 6 million comes from the Rabbis, not from the actual number of Jews who died in Nazi Germany.
Walter Hinteler
 
  4  
Sun 1 May, 2022 02:46 am
@Theo202,
Theo202 wrote:
The point is that 6 million comes from the Rabbis, not from the actual number of Jews who died in Nazi Germany.
The National Socialists murdered six million Jews.
Even if Holocaust belittlers like you repeatedly question this figure, it is scientifically well established.
here are various ways to calculate it. But they all lead to this figure: six million. About four million of them in concentration and extermination camps like Auschwitz or Bergen-Belsen, two million more through massacres in the territories conquered by the Wehrmacht, especially in the Russian campaign.

Source No. 1 for these figures are the Hitler regime's own statements. SS-Obersturmbannführer Adolf Eichmann, who organised the deportations, bragged about these figures according to several independent witnesses. They also coincide with figures from Gestapo documents. And in 1944, newspapers, citing official figures, wrote that 5 million Jews had been "eliminated". And that was still a year before the end of the war!

If it were only the Nazis on whom the figures were based, scepticism would of course be appropriate. It could theoretically be that Nazi propaganda exaggerated the figures. But there are other sources.

This order of magnitude was confirmed in 1991, when, after the fall of the Berlin Wall, the largest research project on this question began. Under the direction of the historian Wolfgang Benz, the census data of the Eastern European countries were also thoroughly evaluated. Benz calculated in this way that at least 5.3 million Jews were murdered. At least means: these are only the absolutely certain cases. But many victims are not taken into account, and the number of unreported cases remains. For example, because many Jews were not even registered - for example, because they did not profess Judaism. But they were still considered Jews according to the racial laws and were therefore murdered by the Nazis. In Poland and the Soviet Union, too, many Jews were not registered. In his study, Wolfgang Benz estimated that due to these circumstances, up to 800,000 additional victims had to be added. Thus he arrives at a maximum figure of 6.1 million.

Because the data from all these different sources agree at least in the order of magnitude, the rounded figure of 6 million is considered not only symbolic but also reliable.
Theo202
 
  -4  
Sun 1 May, 2022 02:58 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
The National Socialists murdered six million Jews.
Even if Holocaust belittlers like you repeatedly question this figure, it is scientifically well established.

Wrong, I'm not belittling anyone. Real science is repeatable and falsifiable, quoting a couple of sources is not.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Sun 1 May, 2022 04:04 am
@Theo202,
Theo202 wrote:
Real science is repeatable and falsifiable, quoting a couple of sources is not.
You mean, it should be repeated what the Nazis had done?

Besides that, what sources do you use if not the originals?
0 Replies
 
bulmabriefs144
 
  -3  
Sun 1 May, 2022 05:46 am
@Theo202,
It's widely quoted. The Jewish population has gone way down as a result of Islam and the Nazis.

But Christians are also commonly persecuted.
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Sun 1 May, 2022 07:03 am
@bulmabriefs144,
Bull ****. How has Islam decimated Judaism?
bulmabriefs144
 
  -3  
Sun 1 May, 2022 09:43 am
@bobsal u1553115,
Islam supported the Nazis. It's well-recorded.

https://billionbibles.org/sharia/hitler-muslim-brotherhood.html

Quote:

https://billionbibles.org/photos/god-bless-hitler.jpg
In 1987, the Muslim Brotherhood in Israel created Hamas, whose members still use the Nazi salute and read Hitler's Mein Kampf, which the Muslim Brotherhood re-titled, My Jihad, and translated into Arabic in the 1930s (Mein Kampf remains the #6 best-seller in the Muslim world today and a favorite among members of the Muslim Brotherhood).


Not only that, Islam perpetually mistreats Jews in Muslim lands. Hell, they will not let them have their own land, calling it Palestine, and pretending they own the place.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-treatment-of-jews-in-arab-islamic-countries
Quote:
Muhammad, the founder of Islam, traveled to Medina in 622 A.D. to attract followers to his new faith. When the Jews of Medina refused to convert and rejected Muhammad, two of the major Jewish tribes were expelled; in 627, Muhammad's followers killed between 600 and 900 of the men, and divided the surviving Jewish women and children amongst themselves.(3)

The Muslim attitude toward Jews is reflected in various verses throughout the Koran, the holy book of the Islamic faith. "They [the Children of Israel] were consigned to humiliation and wretchedness. They brought the wrath of God upon themselves, and this because they used to deny God's signs and kill His Prophets unjustly and because they disobeyed and were transgressors" (Sura 2:61). According to the Koran, the Jews try to introduce corruption (5:64), have always been disobedient (5:78), and are enemies of Allah, the Prophet and the angels (2:97­98).

Still, as "People of the Book," Jews (and Christians) are protected under Islamic law. The traditional concept of the "dhimma" ("writ of protection") was extended by Muslim conquerors to Christians and Jews in exchange for their subordination to the Muslims. Peoples subjected to Muslim rule usually had a choice between death and conversion, but Jews and Christians, who adhered to the Scriptures, were allowed as dhimmis (protected persons) to practice their faith. This "protection" did little, however, to insure that Jews and Christians were treated well by the Muslims. On the contrary, an integral aspect of the dhimma was that, being an infidel, he had to openly acknowledge the superiority of the true believer--the Muslim.

In the early years of the Islamic conquest, the "tribute" (or jizya), paid as a yearly poll tax, symbolized the subordination of the dhimmi. Later, the inferior status of Jews and Christians was reinforced through a series of regulations that governed the behavior of the dhimmi. Dhimmis, on pain of death, were forbidden to mock or criticize the Koran, Islam or Muhammad, to proselytize among Muslims or to touch a Muslim woman (though a Muslim man could take a non­-Muslim as a wife).

Dhimmis were excluded from public office and armed service, and were forbidden to bear arms. They were not allowed to ride horses or camels, to build synagogues or churches taller than mosques, to construct houses higher than those of Muslims or to drink wine in public. They were not allowed to pray or mourn in loud voices-as that might offend the Muslims. The dhimmi had to show public deference toward Muslims-always yielding them the center of the road. The dhimmi was not allowed to give evidence in court against a Muslim, and his oath was unacceptable in an Islamic court. To defend himself, the dhimmi would have to purchase Muslim witnesses at great expense. This left the dhimmi with little legal recourse when harmed by a Muslim.(4)

Dhimmis were also forced to wear distinctive clothing. In the ninth century, for example, Baghdad's Caliph al-Mutawakkil designated a yellow badge for Jews, setting a precedent that would be followed centuries later in Nazi Germany.(5)

At various times, Jews in Muslim lands were able to live in relative peace and thrive culturally and economically. The position of the Jews was never secure, however, and changes in the political or social climate would often lead to persecution, violence and death. Jews were generally viewed with contempt by their Muslim neighbors; peaceful coexistence between the two groups involved the subordination and degradation of the Jews.

When Jews were perceived as having achieved too comfortable a position in Islamic society, anti-Semitism would surface, often with devastating results: On December 30, 1066, Joseph HaNagid, the Jewish vizier of Granada, Spain, was crucified by an Arab mob that proceeded to raze the Jewish quarter of the city and slaughter its 5,000 inhabitants. The riot was incited by Muslim preachers who had angrily objected to what they saw as inordinate Jewish political power.


They go on to mention other examples, of violence. But you get the idea.

Quote:
The attitude of the Muslims toward the Christians and the Jews is that of a master towards slaves, whom he treats with a certain lordly tolerance so long as they keep their place. Any sign of pretension to equality is promptly repressed.(11)
bobsal u1553115
 
  3  
Sun 1 May, 2022 09:45 am
@bulmabriefs144,
Bull ****. Christians supported Hitler.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -3  
Sun 1 May, 2022 10:01 am
@bobsal u1553115,
No, no they didn't, by and large.

The Hitler Christian myth is just that. Christians supported Hitler about as much as Christians support COVID restrictions. They go along with things, because they are weak and fear persecution. Which btw, they have gotten a great deal of, over the centuries.

Christians often helped the Jews hide, actually.
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/righteous-gentiles-and-holocaust-rescuers/

Did the majority of them help?
https://amina5b.weebly.com/role-of-christians-in-jewish-holocaust.html
Quote:
The Nazi rise to power in Germany was greeted by most Christians in Germany with optimism. They welcomed the new regime and particularly embraced its nationalism, and both the Catholic and Protestant churches there pursued a course of compromise and accommodation with the regime, particularly when conflicts arose over Nazi state interference with church programs. Among European ecumenical leaders, there were worries about the possible anti-Christian repercussions of a fascist ideology and fears of renewed German militarism under Nazism. In 1933 most European and US Christian leaders, however, took a "wait and see" attitude.

Initially, the Christians accepted Nazi regime, but by 1933, people were starting to catch on.

Quote:
By the beginning of April 1933, when 3,000 Jewish refugees had arrived in Switzerland, Swiss Protestant church president Henry Henriod sent a message to the German churches asking for a clear position of protest against Nazi measures. That same month, French Protestant leader Wilfred Monod published an open letter welcoming the Jews coming from Germany to France. In May 1933, British Bishop George Bell wrote Hermann Kapler, president of the German Church Federation, of his concern about actions against the Jews.


No, the majority weren't aware, or were afraid to act because they too might be persecuted.
But this is not the same as support of Nazis. Islam actually supported the Nazis, fully aware that they intended to kill the Jews.
Walter Hinteler
 
  4  
Sun 1 May, 2022 10:42 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:
No, no they didn't, by and large.

The Hitler Christian myth is just that. Christians supported Hitler about as much as Christians support COVID restrictions.
You obviously don't notice how you contradict your first sentence with last.

About that what you call "myth" - read German Christians.
(The Protestant Church was divided at the end of the war: The "German Christians" loyal to Hitler had occupied leadership positions in nearly all of the regional churches. Those few belonging to the "Confessing Church" had remained critical of Nazi rule; the "Bruderrat" represented their concerns. The third force was the so-called intact churches: Regional churches that had preserved their independence as far as possible.)

The Evangelical Church of Germany and covid, read i.e. the 10 Commandments for Responsible Pastoral Reactions to the Corona-Crisis

bulmabriefs144
 
  -2  
Sun 1 May, 2022 11:19 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I rather have my teeth pulled out than read the "10 Commandments for Responsible Pastoral Reactions to the Corona-Crisis."
(Not to mention I'm not fluent in German)

If there is any more obvious supplanting of the actual 10 Commandments for a set of secular "guidelines", I don't know what it is.

Quote:
(The Protestant Church was divided at the end of the war: The "German Christians" loyal to Hitler had occupied leadership positions in nearly all of the regional churches. Those few belonging to the "Confessing Church" had remained critical of Nazi rule; the "Bruderrat" represented their concerns. The third force was the so-called intact churches: Regional churches that had preserved their independence as far as possible.)


I never said there weren't plenty of Christians who went along with things. You're missing my point. My point is that the majority of people are cowards. In Communist China, how many people do you think have the nerve to stop a tank?
https://www.thehindu.com/news/international/xs28fv/article29418846.ece/ALTERNATES/LANDSCAPE_615/14TH-JEFF
Answer? That guy.

Now that guy is awesome, but the fact is, most of us worry about getting run over. And most Christians were probably not of the confessing church or intact variety, just as you'd be hard-pressed to find an unmasked church in San Francisco, CA.

Cowardice is common. But cowardice is not collaboration. The Muslims literally supported Hitler's plans, while most of Europe was only hinted at with terms like "the final solution" (outside the inner circle) allowing people to think he was maybe deporting them or something, among Islamic people he was fine telling them "Yeah, we support killing Jews."

Supposing your priest came out as loyal to Hitler. You attend this church, does it necessarily mean you agree with them? Not at all! Suppose you stopped coming to church. You'd have people checking up on why you stopped coming.
Walter Hinteler
 
  4  
Sun 1 May, 2022 11:38 am
@bulmabriefs144,
bulmabriefs144 wrote:

I rather have my teeth pulled out than read the "10 Commandments for Responsible Pastoral Reactions to the Corona-Crisis."
(Not to mention I'm not fluent in German)

English version





bulmabriefs144 wrote:
I never said there weren't plenty of Christians who went along with things. You're missing my point.



bobsal u1553115 wrote:
Bull ****. Christians supported Hitler.
As response bulmabriefs144 wrote:

No, no they didn't, by and large.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -3  
Sun 1 May, 2022 05:14 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
See the first part of what I said. Being in English doesn't make me more likely to read these godless rules literally using Biblical language like the Satanic drivel they are.

I never said it, I tell you.

There were plenty that did, but some (most?) didn't actually knowingly support the murder of Jews.

To compare again with COVID, are you aware that a much higher than normal suicide rate among children and young adults followed in the wake of all this?
https://www.aier.org/article/more-covid-suicides-than-covid-deaths-in-kids/
That job loss, homelessness, and generalized poverty followed after this oh-so-scary disease?
https://www.thenation.com/article/society/poverty-covid-pandemic/

My point? Sometimes people don't know what they are really looking at. They think they're looking at an effort to strengthen the country by exporting undesirables, when actually it's a massacre campaign. Or a fanclub for Mel Gibson started by Eric Cartman.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=85FdOJGf-3s
Sometimes it looks like a disease but it's concerted effort to win elections even at the cost of human lives.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/when-did-the-world-find-out-about-the-holocaust
The general public supported the idea of Make Nazi Germany Great Again, but didn't find out that this involved genocide until 1941. This was years after first opposition (mentioned above) in 1933.
0 Replies
 
Theo202
 
  -3  
Sun 1 May, 2022 05:16 pm
@bulmabriefs144,
Quote:
Islam actually supported the Nazis, fully aware that they intended to kill the Jews.

No, Albianian Muslims supported Jews by preventing them from being deported.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -3  
Sun 1 May, 2022 05:19 pm
@Theo202,
Sauce?

Ahem, source?
Theo202
 
  -3  
Sun 1 May, 2022 05:29 pm
@bulmabriefs144,
https://www.dw.com/en/albanians-saved-jews-from-deportation-in-wwii/a-16481404
 

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