Is the Head of the IMF a Sex Criminal?

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
What evidence do you think is necessary to prove rape? In the absence of witnesses, is it possible to prove it to your satisfaction?

Witnesses, physical injury, the alleged abuser having a history of abuse and the alleged victim not having a history as a victim, blood work that indicate that the alleged victim was likely passed out.....I have already long been on record that most of these sex cases, especially the ones that take place in ongoing intimate relationship, should not be a criminal matter.

This is not an ongoing intimate relationship (that we know of) so that doesn't count and it sounds like NYC is going to present physical injury and a history of abuse. It sounds like the victim does not have a history as a victim, but that sound like an odd criteria. You can only be a crime victim once, then you lose all credibility? If someone repeatedly profited from being a crime victim you might have a case. Of course there is no blood work that we know of and no witnesses.

hawkeye10 wrote:

Most of what you want to prove as rape I dont want to be rape even if the facts are as alleged.

If a man uses violence to subdue a random woman and force her to commit sex acts (as alleged in this case), I want to prove that as rape. Is that not your definition? If not, what is your definition?

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@engineer,

Quote:

If a man uses violence to subdue a random woman and force her to commit sex acts

I think any reasonable person would say that is an easily agreed definition of rape except it should not read man and woman but persons .

1 Reply

@Ionus,

Ionus wrote:

If she made it very clear that she didnt want sex then it revolves around why she changed her mind and did . Was it fear of losing her job, the promise of money, the fear of physical assault....did it all hinge on she didnt like the taste when he came in her mouth ?

The allegation is not that she changed her mind, but that she was forced.

Ionus wrote:

Was that the agreement that failed ? He would give her money and not cum in her mouth....He came in her mouth and she left without her money .

I'm surprised this hasn't come up more often before. Of all the conspiracy theories out there this one is the only one that sounds remotely possible. It beats some vast anti-IMF, anti-Socialist plot. I don't buy it until I hear some scrap of evidence to support it, but if it turned out she was turning tricks to make ends meet, I'd have to reconsider.

Ionus wrote:

Hopefully the trial will be fair and if he is guilty he will be locked away for a long time . It never hurts to send a message to the rich and powerful .

Agreed.

Ionus wrote:

Quote:
If .... violence (not the threat of violence or her belief that he would get violent) was used to force her to perform a sex act, shouldn't that be illegal?
Definitely...and throw away the key .

Agreed again.

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@engineer,

The definition of criminal rape should be force over registered non consent outside of an ongoing intinate relationship, with resistance were reasonable. All other sexual disputes should be in the public health system. Which could become a criminal matter for non compliance.

There has been some serious consideration of this idea, but at the moment there is no will to undertake this much reform, as the public health system is not currently set up to take on this load. There is also broad resistance to putting down the hammer of criminal sanctions...

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@Ionus,

Quote:

Hopefully the trial will be fair and if he is guilty he will be locked away for a long time . It never hurts to send a message to the rich and powerful .

That the problem he is being attacked for being rich and powerful more then for any likely misdeed he may had done.

Firefly at one point on this thread attacked him for being able to live in a luxurious rental home as he wait out this matter and before that there was some pleasure being express in the news that the small cell he was being locked up in was far different then his three thousands a night hotel suit.

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@BillRM,

Quote:

he is being attacked for being rich and powerful more then for any likely misdeed

That is certainly the case, but if it doesnt affect a fair trial then I dont think it is important that people are jealous .

I am having trouble getting that picture where he is with the Obamas out of my head . It just makes him look like a grubby pervert whether he is or not . Maybe too many of us have negative impressions of the rich and powerful.... but they dont get to where they are by being generous and laid back .

I like to see the law applied equally . False statements like "I am not a crook", "I did not have sexual relations", damaged Presidents . If he forced her then he should go to gaol .

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@hawkeye10,

Quote:

The definition of criminal rape should be force over registered non consent outside of an ongoing intinate relationship, with resistance were reasonable.

Basically, that fits the charges in the DSK case--the acts were forcible, she physically resisted, there was no relationship between the two parties. Except, he is not accused of rape. Why do you keep referring to rape? He is charged with criminal sexual assault in the first degree, forcible touching, attempted rape, and unlawful imprisonment. That's enough.

So, you agree that those are valid criminal charges--that such forcible acts against a resisting person should be considered criminal?

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@Ionus,

What is your idea of force, if he had his hands one her univited as seems likely, and says something to the effect of "come on baby just suck on it and then you can go" as I can picture DSK saying, is that force if there has not been any hitting or dragging? Can verbal insistance for a blow job ever be worth 25 years in prison? How about the 5 years which is said is the best that DSK can hope for if he is found guilty? To me that kind of time is not justified unless he slapped her around s0me first...the allegation as we have it is pretty darn minor.

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@Ionus,

Quote:

It just makes him look like a grubby pervert whether he is or not .

I wonder how many pictures was needed to have been gone over to find the one that made him look that bad.

Also I am fairly sure that a similar search done on any other male could catch the eyes being somewhere they should not had been in a social situation.

Second I had known two brothers personally who was worth a large fraction of a billion dollars and gotten there the hard way by earning every damn dime of it.

The one brother was known for chasing his secretaries around the desk from time to time.

When he pass the other brother joke in my hearing that now the secretaries would not need to bring track shoes to work anymore.

Good men who created technology that is being used in every hospital lab in the world and who created a company that gave good middle class and above living for thousands of families since the 1950s.

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One hitch in the payday for Ophelia plan is that DSK has no money now. It all belongs to his wife. I strongly suspect that he might be judgement proof now if the criminal case does not produce a guilty verdict. With a criminal sentencing the judge may be able to demand vitctim restitution payments, but even that is iffy.

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@hawkeye10,

You mean except for the $250K annual pension from IMF he receives for life...a fraction of which is courtesy the U.S. taxpayer?

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@hawkeye10,

Another point is that we don't know what language was used during the event, if it was French we can probably count on defense claiming that the state is using the wrong translations. Ophelia speaks Frence, how well IDK.

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@hawkeye10,

Quote:

Can verbal insistance for a blow job ever be worth 25 years in prison?

I have seen men who have been bashed by complete strangers and they behave like women raped . Low self esteem, afraid to go out, more prone to violence towards others.....but the perps never got anywhere near 25 years . Some only get 3 years for murder . There is a lot of law I am not happy with .

I disagree with the methodology of our prison system and the lack of reform based sentences . Some rapists and child molesters will never reform (very very few do) and should never be let out . To give a computer hacker a longer sentence because he steals more money than an armed robber shows how silly the system has become .

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@Irishk,

Quote:

You mean except for the $250K annual pension from IMF he receives for life...a fraction of which is courtesy the U.S. taxpayer?

Sorry but pensions are off limit in civil judgments.

See the fact that OJ pension could not be touch by the Goldman family.

If the maid desire a big pay day she and her three lawyers are likely going to need to reach a settlement that ended the criminal case.

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@BillRM,

The poor are reminded every day of their limitations . I still think it is not wrong to send a powerful rich man to gaol if he is guilty . That people resent the rich for whatever reason is immaterial IF it does not effect the trial result .

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

Quote:

the allegation as we have it is pretty darn minor.

He is charged with violent felonies. That's not "pretty darn minor". And "verbal insistance" is not what he is accused of doing.

The force alleged is physical--violence--he grabbed her, held onto her, dragged her from one room to another, tried to pull her pantyhose off and attempted to rape her, forced her mouth to have contact with his penis, grabbed at her breasts...

That's force to most people. That's force under NYS law.

Didn't you even bother to read the criminal charges against him?

Are you discussing the actual case, or only your fantasies about what happened?

You act as if there is no written state law that clearly defines terms and specifies exactly which types of actions are considered criminal. He is charged with violating very specific laws. And his defense attorneys aren't going to argue against the laws, or the definitions, as you are doing, they will try to raise reasonable doubt that he even engaged in any forcible acts. But, if the prosecution has evidence of injuries on either his body, or the maid's body, that helps to corroborate a forcible, violent struggle. And apparently they do have some evidence of that nature.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

Quote:

One hitch in the payday for Ophelia plan is that DSK has no money now

I believe in court his lawyers said he had a net worth of $2 million. The rest is his wife's money.

The maid may want justice and not money. She may want him to go to prison. And, so far, she has been helping the prosecution to try to send him to prison.

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@firefly,

He had 2 million before he posted bail.....being smarter than the average bear I am sure he spent all of his money before using his wife's.

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

The definition of criminal rape should be force over registered non consent outside of an ongoing intinate relationship, with resistance were reasonable.

That is exactly what is alleged here. I could understand a position of "I'm skeptical but will see what happens in court." I can't understand the position of "no way, this woman is just out to take his money" especially when his money is in a country that will never turn it over to her.

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@engineer,

Quote:

That is exactly what is alleged here

Yes, the state appears to be trying to make a big stretch out of the word "force" and the non consent is very fuzzy at the moment. One report has it that she ran to the door but fell down on a laundry bag. DSK went to her and presented his dick and she started blowing him. Who knows what really happened, but this is very far from the knife at the throat concept of force.

Quote:

I can't understand the position of "no way, this woman is just out to take his money" especially when his money is in a country that will never turn it over to her.

She is certainly going to have some problems collecting on a civil suit against DSK, she should have better odds with her suit against her employer.

1 Reply

Is the Head of the IMF a Sex Criminal?

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