9
   

Is the Head of the IMF a Sex Criminal?

 
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2011 06:07 pm
@spendius,
Loose men are often wrong too.

I'm not much interested in christianity, however much it grips you, Spendius, and I've a life long lack of interest in economics and nothing to show for it, cough.

My truthometer has moved, but it is subject to the odd magnetic forces.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2011 06:16 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
there is no evidence that she is telling the truth either. The tie goes to the accused in our system.

No, a tie goes to a trial. That's the purpose of a trial.

BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2011 06:30 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
No, a tie goes to a trial. That's the purpose of a trial.


Sorry dear heart but your poor innocent maid only trial is likely to hers for money laundering or perjury.

And I hate to break this to you but the state is not supposed to bring anyone even a man on a charge of rape to trial unless there is enough solid evidence that a reasonable jury might find the person guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

Given what we already know about the so call victim in a she said he said case a chance for a conviction is the same as a snowball in hell.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2011 08:25 pm
@ossobuco,
Quote:
We don't know in this case. Now I figure it was a set up, but yet again I don't know.

I don't know what happened in this case either, and we may never really find out what happened.

But, given the fact that this woman was not completely truthful on her asylum application, and the fact that she has also apparently been involved in some shady stuff, it seems to me that the last thing she would want to do is get involved with the police and law enforcement--which is what makes me think she was truthful with the police about being sexually assaulted, that her willingness to immediately report her sexual assault was a spontaneous reaction to that event. And it sounds like the incarcerated man she spoke to on the phone the next day might have told her to drop her complaint, possibly because of what the police could find out about her, but, by then, she had figured out (or someone told her) she might be able to profit financially by continuing to cooperate with the police because the man involved was wealthy.

So, I'm less inclined to see this as a set-up. I think the idea of a profit motive probably occurred to her after, and not before, any alleged sexual assault. And, as the D.A.'s investigators dug up more and more info on her past history of lies and possible minor crimes, she began to panic, likely feared deportation or winding up in jail, and wanted out of the whole mess. And she did stop cooperating with the D.A. for a period of time, she wasn't showing up to meet with them when she was supposed to, and things were very emotional when she did show up, according to an article in the NY Times.

Even if this woman's past had been pristine, going through a trial like this would still have involved an assault on her character by the defense, both through planted leaks to the media, and certainly during cross-examination, because that's the way sexual assault cases go--the defense attacks the complainant's credibility any way they can, fairly or unfairly. And the idea that this woman was almost immediately thinking of profiting from this, even if that idea occurred to her after an actual sexual assault took place, would probably be more of a blow to her credibility in front of a jury than any of the other things the D.A. dug up about her, and that's what just stopped the D.A. in his tracks. She'd be a flawed witness in any case, but, up against DSK's defense team, she'd completely crumble on the issue of wanting to profit from this situation.

I do think there is a good possibility this woman was sexually assaulted by DSK, and he might have figured he could pay her off afterward and she'd keep her mouth shut about it. And she, by reporting it to the police, found herself in a situation that was way over her head from the start, partly because of the high profile of the man she accused and the consequent high stakes for both the prosecutor and the defense in this case--no one was about to treat this woman with kid gloves, including the D.A., and when confronted by the D.A. with evidence of her past misdeeds and lies, I suspect she just fell apart emotionally. Even if she could help to convict DSK, this woman is in a lot of potential legal trouble with immigration, the IRS, etc. and her own welfare might be the main thing on her mind at the moment and not the case against DSK.

I'm curious to see what the maid's lawyer, Kenneth Thompson, might do next. He doesn't want the D.A. to drop the charges against DSK because he doesn't want his client to seem completely discredited, but the woman might not be cooperating fully with him either right now.

This situation may keep twisting and turning for a while yet, but that still doesn't mean we'll ever find out what really happened in that hotel suite.

hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2011 08:36 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
But, given the fact that this woman was not completely truthful on her asylum application, and the fact that she has also apparently been involved in some shady stuff, it seems to me that the last thing she would want to do is get involved with the police and law enforcement-
Maybe she is not as smart as you and thus did not figure that out, however based upon what we know about her I strongly suspect that she had so much confidence in herself to think that she could pull it off, based upon previous experience. As we saw with all of her spitting, she knows the importance of putting on a good show. It was not a slam dunk though, she had to think about it for awhile, as she was cleaning another room.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2011 08:40 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:

Quote:
there is no evidence that she is telling the truth either. The tie goes to the accused in our system.

No, a tie goes to a trial. That's the purpose of a trial.


No, the purpose of a criminal trial is to see if the DA is right that he has overwhelming evidence of guilt. If he does not, and more importantly if he knows that he does not, there should not be a trial.

I hope to hell that you did not go to law school, as you dont even know the basics of how the American system is supposed to work.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2011 08:40 pm
This is a fairly good summary of recent developments.
Quote:

Brand New Details Show How The Maid In The DSK Case Had Her Credibility Destroyed
Joe Weisenthal | Jul. 2, 2011,

Starting late on Thursday, the DSK case turned surreal.

First the NYT dropped a bombshell, reporting that the sex crime case against the former IMF chief was on the verge of collapse, as inconsistencies were appearing all over the place in the maid's story. Key, however, was the fact that almost all of the inconsistencies seemed to be away from the actual incident itself. They were more about her background, her alleged underworld connections, and lies she made on her application for asylum in the US.

Then yesterday, after DSK saw his bail get eliminated (but not the charges dropped), the maid's lawyer gave a stunning and graphic press conference, accusing DA Cy Vance of being afraid to take the case, while going on to list in (an extremely graphic manner) the alleged assault on his client.

So the observer was left with two different observations: 1) Her background is not helpful and makes her a horrible witness and 2) she maintains the details of the rape, and her lawyer claims that physical evidence would back her up (vaginal bruising, a torn ligament, torn stockings, etc.).

Today the NYT is back with more details filling in the first piece, and through it you can see how difficult of a situation the prosecution would find itself if it decided to go through with the case.

Some key details:

In a call with an acquaintance in a jail, right after the alleged incident, she made clear she knew who DSK was, and thus the opportunity to personally profit from the incident. She said something like 'Don’t worry, this guy has a lot of money. I know what I’m doing,'

Originally, the maid was cooperative with investigators and attorneys, but became less so overtime, not showing up for long stretches, and also crying when her lawyer was not there (Note: We're not sure whether that's damning in any way).

At another time, the woman threw herself on the floor in response to questions.
When confronted with her (apparent) lie that the Sofitel was her only form of income (remember, prosecutors discovered evidence of large bank accounts, and multiple phones) she was stunned, ask her lawyer for direction on how to proceed, but he was also speechless (remember, in Thompson's press conference yesterday he said that was entirely a lie).

And most damning: Her version of events at the Sofitel changed from originally finding her supervisor right after the event to going to and finishing another room. And yet, apparently key card says the new version is a lie.

Still one big question remains: What of the vivid physical evidence claimed by the lawyer yesterday? Do the prosecutors think it's compelling and if so, is this a manager of the central witness basically being impossible to use?
http://www.businessinsider.com/how-the-maid-in-the-dominique-strauss-kahn-case-lost-her-credibility-2011-7
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2011 08:58 pm
Lesson of DSK? Be careful who you're alone with


Quote:
CNN) -- Well, I have to admit, there was a rush to convict.
Not that we weren't assured that this was a slam-dunk case. But even beyond that, there was a certain satisfaction in believing that because Dominique Strauss-Kahn, the now-former head of the International Monetary Fund, had a checkered past with women, and because of course New York prosecutors would have done their due diligence, that this was one powerful guy who wasn't going to get away with sexual harassment and assault.
Of course the truth is not yet clear, but what is clear is that the story is complicated and may include a woman who had sex willingly and was not forced.
Here's the rub in these kinds of cases. Not all women who report assault are honest; not all accused are guilty. It is hard not to have a runaway train on these stories when the facts seem, on their face, damning, and when the crime involves the powerful over the powerless. Most of us are champions of civil rights and personal liberty. How can we not seethe at the idea of a maid being overpowered in a hotel room by a man who is used to taking what he wants -- and getting it one way or another.
We still don't know what the situation is (hence the hypnotic power of high-visibility trials). Is this a woman who is being tarnished by an expensive legal machine's clever PR? Is she a woman with a criminal past with monetary motives? Or is she simply a woman with an unstable and unsavory life, with less than high motives, who was nevertheless a victim? The problem with these cases is that they become a "she-said/he said" struggle and getting past female stereotypes ("helpless maid," conniving slut," "egomaniac power broker") isn't easy. We don't really know if the guy was set up, or the woman abused.
So we have to do what we should have done in the first place. Wait. See what the facts are and hope that those involved in the legal proceedings are honest and diligent.
What I do think is progress is that there's reason to believe that justice will be done, whoever the culprit or victim is. Not too many years ago, this woman could not have made the charge and be taken seriously. She has been taken seriously this time. Howeve -- and just as important -- if she is lying, then Strauss-Kahn will be freed and she will be in a heap of trouble.
One last thought: Lawyers have been very careful in framing the issue of whether or not there was sex. Strauss-Kahn's lawyer, for example, maintains there was "no element of compulsion in this case."
Still, let me just say this to Mr. Strauss-Kahn or other horny men who think a quickie with someone they don't know at all seems like a good idea: Be careful who you have sex with. Be careful who you are with in a room, alone.
Whatever the facts of this matter, having sex with someone you don't know, can't trust, and who may have motives you haven't even dreamt of, is extremely risky.
When will we learn this simple lesson: It's not just your flesh you expose when you take off your clothes. It's your safety, health, reputation, primary relationship -- and yes, even you prospects for the presidency of France .

http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/07/02/schwartz.dsk.sex/index.html?section=cnn_latest

Editor's note: Pepper Schwartz, a sociologist at the University of Washington, is the author of "Prime: Adventures and Advice on Sex, Love, and the Sensual Years" and 15 other books on sexuality and relationships. She writes the Naked Truth column for the AARP and is a senior fellow at the Council on Contemporary Families, a nonprofit organization that gathers research on American families.

Not quite it would seem...the lesson of DSK is "be careful who you ask for a blowjob, because the American "justice" system allows them to take a running head start towards ruining your life.



0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2011 09:18 pm
When a Predator Collides With a Fabricator
MAUREEN DOWD

Quote:
SO what’s the moral of this Manhattan immorality tale?


That the French are always right, even when their hauteur is irritating?

They were right about Iraq and America’s rush to war. And they may be right about Dominique Strauss-Kahn and America’s rush to judgment.

In both cases, French credibility was undermined, so we resisted seeing things from their point of view.

France tried to block W.’s spun-up attack on Iraq, but we knew that the French government had a history of making special oil deals with Saddam Hussein, and of favoring expediency over principle.

France refused to believe that DSK could force himself on a Sofitel maid, but we knew that French society had a history of shielding powerful and talented men accused of scandalous behavior with young women.

W. created a fake deadline and casus belli on Iraq, but New York prosecutors had a real deadline before Strauss-Kahn flew away to France, which does not have an extradition treaty with the United States.

Seven weeks after DSK, then the chief of the International Monetary Fund, was struck by a coup de théâtre — getting hauled off an Air France plane by the police, who charged him with raping a 32-year-old maid — he basked in a more pleasant coup de théâtre, getting released on his own recognizance. As he left the downtown courtroom, he gave his first public smile and put his arm around Anne Sinclair, his attractive wife, who has financed the high-powered legal team and high-priced TriBeCa detention.

In an exquisitely embarrassing moment for Cyrus Vance Jr., the Manhattan district attorney, the prosecutors wilted upon learning that their victim had victimized them — repeatedly lying to the government.

To get political asylum in America, the woman, an African immigrant, lied that her husband had died by torture at the hands of police officers and soldiers in Guinea. She told investigators, falsely, that she had been gang-raped there. To get a bigger break on her taxes, she claimed a friend’s child as her own. To impress the grand jury, she said that after the attack by DSK, she had waited in a hall for him to get an elevator before reporting it to her supervisor.

But as the red-faced apologia filed by the D.A.’s office on Thursday revealed: “The complainant has since admitted that this account was false and that after the incident in Suite 2806, she proceeded to clean a nearby room and then returned to Suite 2806 and began to clean that suite before she reported the incident to her supervisor.”

She was involved with a drug dealer jailed for possessing 400 pounds of pot; she talked to him about whether she could profit from pursuing charges against DSK, noting that he had a lot of money. Prosecutors say she may have links to people also involved in money laundering.

Law enforcement officials say privately that they still think DSK sexually assaulted the maid. But the case relied on her credibility, and that’s gone.

They say it is roughly analogous — not in terms of the maid’s sexual history but her record of veracity — to a case in which a prostitute is raped. It’s hard to prosecute, and the perp can often get away with it.

The upright-looking Vance is not like the scoundrel prosecutor in the Duke lacrosse case. He did not ignore evidence that was contrary to the case prosecutors were trying to build. It just took several weeks, after they tried to deny DSK bail and after they indicted him, to do a thorough investigation.

In France, his Socialist colleagues — and rivals to run for president — defended him. Ségolène Royal howled about how the American justice system had thrown the Socialists’ star to the wolves. Royal’s former partner, François Hollande, said that, once cleared, DSK could still run in the party primary — although he would have to explain his lascivious manner toward the help and his lavish home-arrest lifestyle.

In New York, Kenneth Thompson, the accuser’s lawyer, howled about how the justice system had thrown the maid to the wolves. He said the young Muslim woman was “traumatized” and would speak out on the case.

Her evidence, he said, includes stockings with holes ripped in them, a torn shoulder ligament, a hospital picture of a bruise on her vagina, and the DSK DNA in the room — all, she claims, from the violent attack.

“Until today, it was white versus black, rich versus poor, man versus woman, Jew versus Muslim,” said Elaine Sciolino, a Times correspondent in France and the author of “La Seduction,” assessing the French reaction and the fraying of the Gallic Anita Hill moment. “Now it’s going to be this man who would have been president taken down by this nogoodnik who has a druggie boyfriend in prison and who lied from the moment she tried to get into the United States.”

When a habitual predator faces off against a habitual liar, the liar will most likely lose, even if it is the rare case when she is telling the truth.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/03/opinion/sunday/03dowd.html?_r=1
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2011 09:22 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
No, the purpose of a criminal trial is to see if the DA is right that he has overwhelming evidence of guilt. If he does not, and more importantly if he knows that he does not, there should not be a trial.

Whoever said there has to be "overwhelming evidence of guilt" in order for a prosecutor to go to trial? You are making up your own rules, but that's not how the legal system works, or is intended to work.

In fact, what defendant would want a trial, rather than a plea deal, if there was "overwhelming evidence of guilt"?

The prosecutor should be convinced of the defendant's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt and they should be able to present evidence to a jury that will support their belief. That is all that is required of any responsible prosecutor.

Do you think there is "overwhelming evidence of guilt" in the current Casey Anthony murder trial? That's an entirely circumstantial case in which they cannot even definitively establish the cause of death of the victim, but the defendant is accused of pre-meditated murder and she potentially faces the death penalty. I've watched large portions of that trial, and whether the prosecutor has proved his case beyond a reasonable doubt is anyone's guess at this point. I don't know whether she intentionally killed her child in a deliberate pre-meditated act, but I do believe she was somehow involved in the child's death and the disposal of the body. There are many remaining unanswered questions in the case--questions that probably will never be answered.

Most criminal cases have some degree of ambiguity--and the purpose of the defense at trial is raise even more ambiguity and reasonable doubt. Rarely is the state's case an open and shut crystal clear presentation of guilt--and we don't even need trials in those instances because plea bargains would make more sense. Not all crimes even leave a clear trail of hard evidence to present to a jury and most depend on circumstantial evidence and witness testimony and it's up to the jury to sort it all out, evaluate credibility, and render a verdict.
Quote:
I hope to hell that you did not go to law school, as you dont even know the basics of how the American system is supposed to work.

And you've been watching too many crime dramas and episodes of CSI. Try watching more actual trials and see how the system works in real life.




0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2011 09:39 pm
@firefly,
I plain old don't know, but now my guesses are going towards set up, not least from the odd bits re her history.

And if so, I don't think it's understandable, and so on, but quite horrible to do.



0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2011 09:39 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
When a habitual predator faces off against a habitual liar, the liar will most likely lose, even if it is the rare case when she is telling the truth.

That just about sums this situation up. Maureen Dowd has the right fix on it.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2011 09:42 pm
@firefly,
I can see that take.

I don't know, though, that that is what is going on.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2011 10:05 pm
Quote:
The Politician, the Maid, and Presumptions of Guilt
7/1/11

It was, or so it seemed, a familiar story: the lecherous, power-drunk old man who’s used to getting away with taking advantage of women, until he doesn’t. But with the news that the sexual-assault case against Dominique Strauss-Kahn is crumbling in the face of the accuser’s own checkered past, the narrative has taken an abrupt about-face. Suddenly, the Sofitel maid has gone from helpless immigrant suffering life’s latest cruel blow to a different stock character: the dodgy gangster’s girlfriend who knows an opportunity when she sees one. Prosecutors, once certain the details were on their side, have discovered they are dealing with an unreliable narrator. But then again, so are we all.

We Americans pride ourselves on the presumption of innocence, when in fact everything about our culture works to spin the arrow the other way around. In the court of public opinion, what matters is not facts but story lines, and especially with a defendant like DSK, it is easy to see signs of guilt....When the history emerged of the terrible way DSK has treated women — as if he were a Duke lacrosse player all grown up and handed the keys to one of the world’s elite institutions — we built the case a little more in our heads. This was imperious entitlement at its very worst, a modern-day morality play. Also: He’s French...

Now that we know this hardworking immigrant mother is at the very least a more complicated figure, the presumption of guilt plays out in the opposite direction. DSK has been released on his own recognizance. Even if an otherwise duplicitous witness is telling the truth about the alleged attack, the district attorney’s job may have just become impossible. But really, the central mystery endures. On May 14, a rich, well-connected white man had sex in a hotel suite with a younger, poorer, black woman who is not his wife. We can conjure all sorts of narratives to fill in the blanks, but that fact may be the only aspect of this affair that we’ll ever be sure of.
http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2011/07/dsk_the_sofitel_housekeeper_an.html


Quote:
Despite all the media speculation to the contrary, the DSK case isn't quite dead yet. Vance and his office may still be able to prove that the encounter in the Sofitel hotel suite between the former IMF managing director and the Guinean-born housekeeper was less than "consensual," as his lawyers are now arguing. But the initial momentum they had after DSK's arrest was first reported? Yep, all that's gone. From here on out, it's going to be a hard slog to the trial room. http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2011/07/dsk_backlash_throws_das_office_1.html


0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2011 10:29 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
That just about sums this situation up. Maureen Dowd has the right fix on it.


You mean Firefly you had stop trying to sell us all on the idea that she is a god fearing religion Muslim woman from the third world who would never never lie about being attacked by a rich evil white French gentlemen?


A woman who is so outstanding that her first concern is her good name and who somehow found lawyers willing to work for free to protect that good name.

Clearly not the kind of woman who would have a drug dealer for a boyfriend or a hundred thousands dollars or so in bank accounts around the country with her name on them tie to other drug dealers or who would lie to get into the country in the first place. Oh a woman who would never be proven beyond question to had lie under oath to the Grand Jury.

Yes a trial would be fun to watch as DSK lawyers tear her and the state case apart.

Hell DSK could get a kid who had just pass his New York bars to do the deed as there is no real reason or need to used some of the best lawyers in the country.

So Firefly perhaps we should all be hoping with you that the state does not drop the charges after all and put the poor “victim” on the stand.


0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2011 10:33 pm
The main thing is that the Libbies have put more terror into innocent men . He is innocent still, isnt he ? Will the woman be recompensing him for his losses ?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2011 10:43 pm
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

The main thing is that the Libbies have put more terror into innocent men . He is innocent still, isnt he ? Will the woman be recompensing him for his losses ?
you sound just like Vance, he who once defended men against sex charges and thus now feels the need to prove what a dick he can be towards all men, to the point of treating an individual man unjustly in order to send a message to all men.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2011 10:48 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:

Quote:
When a habitual predator faces off against a habitual liar, the liar will most likely lose, even if it is the rare case when she is telling the truth.

That just about sums this situation up. Maureen Dowd has the right fix on it.
in that case charges should have been dropped on or about May 20....how do you explain that they have not been?
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2011 10:52 pm
@Ionus,
Quote:
Will the woman be recompensing him for his losses ?


She does have a hundred thousands or so in banks accounts and that would pay for a few days of DSK expenses even if it would annoy her drug dealers friends.

0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jul, 2011 10:58 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
in that case charges should have been dropped on or about May 20....how do you explain that they have not been?


Hawkeye I am leaning toward Firefly wish to see such a trial as it would be very entertaining to watch on court/true TV DSK lawyers destroy the state case in front of the world.
 

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