9
   

Is the Head of the IMF a Sex Criminal?

 
 
spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2011 12:51 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
The state of New York.


Have they never been wrong before?

Quote:
This isn't a "bodice-ripper"--stop trying to romanticize it--it's a criminal case about forcible sexual assault of a stranger.


How do you know she was a stranger? She speaks French. I don't know how often he stayed at Sofitel but two French speakers would naturally gravitate a little at least in New York if he was there a reasonable number of times. The management could have assigned her to his room because she speaks French. What's your evidence that they were strangers to each other.

Quote:
Perhaps because no one but you may give a damn about what Greer thinks--I know I don't. So,I wouldn't be interested in your comments about her. And I find the entire issue irrelevant to DSK's legal case.


How very convenient for you all. It is the feminist position you know. Purity for men. Evidently you approve of the humiliation of women by chemical applications, mechanical contrivances and surgical operations by the hundreds of millions with abortion as a parachute in case of mal-function in the service of male convenience and enforced by economic and social force if not by a form of hypnotism. And DSK is being prosecuted by an army of men who take it all for granted as a natural right and for nothing more serious than an alleged tootling fellation which I have heard some ladies perform 20 times a day in discreet "parlours". You haven't even a rape on your hands in this case. Of course you are "not interested". You can't afford to be. Which is why you daren't read Midge Decter.

That puts you in with the others on a matter of principle. Which brings the bodice ripping aspect into play as the only other explanation. Doing right by women is something you "wouldn't be interested in".
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2011 12:56 pm
@spendius,
And them not being strangers would explain her entering his room so casually.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2011 01:11 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

And them not being strangers would explain her entering his room so casually.


What I would like to know is how she did not know the room was occupied after she got in. Did she not hear water running? Did she not see DSK's stuff about the room? One thing that I have not come about is a floor plan for the room. I have heard however the the suite is set up goofy, like the suite was jammed into a space not ideally suited for it.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2011 01:19 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
The management could have assigned her to his room because she speaks French. What's your evidence that they were strangers to each other.
Some things we know

1) DSK had been to this hotel at least 7 times in the last few years, including 3 in the last year.

2) he always has this room

3) this maid until recently did not work this floor, the normal maid is out on extended leave, Ophelia requested to take over her duties, which was seen as a bump in status, and was granted. This is a union shop, so most likely floor assignments are done by bid, which would mean that her doing the best floor does not mean that she is the best, it means that she is the highest seniority person who wants the job.

we dont know if she was the maid last time he stayed, for I dont know for how long she has been on the floor, or when he stayed last.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2011 01:22 pm
@hawkeye10,
It is very likely she knew the room was occupied when the door was only slightly opened. I daresay the TV was on. "BREAKING NEWS" will always be of interest to an IMF chief.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2011 01:32 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

It is very likely she knew the room was occupied when the door was only slightly opened. I daresay the TV was on. "BREAKING NEWS" will always be of interest to an IMF chief.
What door was open? So far as I know the door of the suite was closed. If the TV was on, which I have not heard, that might not register, as people routinely leave stuff on when they leave the room to check out. How long was she in the room though before she confronted DSK? Reports are that he was coming out of the shower drying off, why does she not hear the water running? It might be that the design was such are the plumbing of such high quality that she would not, but that would be unusual. Also, Is there not a standard routine to do a walk though before you start cleaning a room? Most people when they are packing use the bed which would mean that DSK had stuff on the bed, most maids that I have seen work first off strip the bed and get the towels, so WTF is this woman doing first? All we know is that she had begun cleaning the room.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2011 01:37 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Meanwhile, Dershowitz is clearly saying he wouldn't want to take this case to trial if he were the defense
His analysis is questionable, as he is saying that DSK would get a couple of years where as all other experts that I have seen say that 5 years is the starting point if DSK get convicted on any o the three top charges. I suspect the Dershowitz is more attention whoring here than giving quality expert guidance.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2011 01:58 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
Poor old DSK--he can't clear his name

He can clear his name by going to trial and by having the defense completely discredit the maid's testimony on cross-examination and by having them discredit all the forensic and circumstantial evidence regarding force. They would have to raise substantial doubt, and not just reasonable doubt, about his guilt to clear his name in the public's mind. Generally, the state does not go to trial with cases that are so weak that substantial doubt about guilt exists, but you never know what might happen at trial.
Paying the maid a settlement, so that she won't testify at a criminal trial, would not clear his name, but it would keep him out of prison.
Quote:
She speaks French. I don't know how often he stayed at Sofitel but two French speakers would naturally gravitate a little at least in New York if he was there a reasonable number of times. The management could have assigned her to his room because she speaks French. What's your evidence that they were strangers to each other.

The Sofitel in NYC is part of a French hotel chain, I would imagine that most of the staff might be French-speaking.
Quote:
Sofitel celebrates French elegance and the richness of world cultures at 120 destinations all over the globe.
http://www.sofitel.com/gb/hotel-2185-sofitel-new-york/index.shtml
.
The maid would not enter a suite she believed to be occupied--she thought DSK's suite was empty because another hotel worker told her it was unoccupied. She entered the suite to do her job. Hotel policy required her to leave the outside door open while cleaning, and apparently she did so--he is accused of closing and locking the outside door and preventing her from leaving the suite by restraining her.

To find out the rest of her account of what happened inside that suite, and the defense's alternate version of what took place, you will have to wait for the trial.

Quote:
DSK is being prosecuted by an army of men...for nothing more serious than an alleged tootling fellation...

He's being prosecuted for something considerably more serious--criminal forcible sexual assaults of an unwilling person, which are violent felonies. Your attempts to trivialize his charges, and side-step the legal realities, simply seem foolish.
Quote:
It is the feminist position you know

I couldn't be less interested in "the feminist position" on this matter. It's a legal case.







0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2011 02:47 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

Looking through a biography of DSK leads me to think that he is not a man to be easily "intoxicated" by an immigrant cleaning woman who has an obvious record of highly skilled manipulation.

....

I give no weight to any untested reports concerning DSK's past. I might give some attention to the possibility of an organised conspiracy to blacken his character for which there are two, at least, very powerful motives.


I find the juxtaposition of these two statements in a single, rather windy, post quite remarkable. You are willing to accept as "obvious" vague third party reports alleging the cleaning woman's past "manipulative" behavior ( frankly I am aware on no such reports), but strangely unwilling to give any credence to numerous reports, some backed up by prior documentation from those involved, of DSK's oddly aggressive behavior towards women in subordinate positions relative to himself.

You are a good guy Spendi, and I enjoy most of your posts, but this kind of (careless I suspect) hypocrisy and deliberate stupidity is grist for the mills of those who term you as merely a windbag.
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2011 03:15 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Dershowitz is just saying that it's harder to collect the money after a civil trial, just as O.J. has avoided paying the $32 million in damages he was ordered to pay in his civil case. So, a civil settlement, before a criminal trial, would put money immediately into her pocket, but, as Dershowitz admits, that sort of settlement is not that easy to work out because of "obstruction of justice" issues.


It what I been saying from the frst you could wipe you rear end with the worth of a US civil judgment in this case!!!!!!!!!!

So it does not matter it a settlement payoff before a criminal trial or her and her lawyers are without the big big payday.

An yes you do need to play games to do so but it can and very very likely will be done as the maid care for the $$$$$$$$$ otherwise the lawyers would not be surrounding her.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2011 03:32 pm
@georgeob1,
I'm assuming George that getting into the USA from rural Guinea and then a $60k job, no doubt with certain perks, in a hotel charging $3,ooo a night, requires above average manipulative skills. Even without the posts early in the thread explaining how it was done I think that conclusion is pretty straightforward. I gave no weight to those explanations either beyond registering them. Her presence in the Sofitel is sufficient evidence for me of a fine female intelligence. And getting into the room of the MD of the IMF is also quite a feat.

So I don't see anything remarkable about the juxtaposition of the two statements. Nor do I see that my post was in the least "windy". I was using no vague third party reports. And I don't intend to start doing in relation to untested allegations from certain females who might well have axes to grind on their own behalf or on behalf of others. No matter how numerous. They would be numerous if they were being orchestrated.

I know I'm a good guy. And I'm glad you enjoy most of my posts. If you will tell me what you don't enjoy about the others I will be happy for you to say why. There was nothing careless about what I said. There was no hypocrisy and any stupidity I am more than willing to be enlightened upon.

And I don't give a monkey's thrapp who thinks I'm a windbag. Let them mill their grist.
georgeob1
 
  4  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2011 04:19 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

I'm assuming George that getting into the USA from rural Guinea and then a $60k job, no doubt with certain perks, in a hotel charging $3,ooo a night, requires above average manipulative skills. Even without the posts early in the thread explaining how it was done I think that conclusion is pretty straightforward. I gave no weight to those explanations either beyond registering them. Her presence in the Sofitel is sufficient evidence for me of a fine female intelligence. And getting into the room of the MD of the IMF is also quite a feat.
What is your source for the $60K figure? I doubt it, seriously.

Here we think one person's used sheets and towels are much like another. I would be very surprised if there were any special provisions to determine just who cleaned the great man's room. We just don't have the rank obsessions that so distract you. Besides he was a European and therefore of little consequence anyway.

spendius wrote:

So I don't see anything remarkable about the juxtaposition of the two statements. Nor do I see that my post was in the least "windy". I was using no vague third party reports. And I don't intend to start doing in relation to untested allegations from certain females who might well have axes to grind on their own behalf or on behalf of others. No matter how numerous. They would be numerous if they were being orchestrated.
Your persistent willingness to prejudge her, apparently without any basis at all, and simultaneous refusal to give any weight to what has been reported about DSK is both hypocritical and deliberately stupid.

spendius wrote:

I know I'm a good guy. And I'm glad you enjoy most of my posts. If you will tell me what you don't enjoy about the others I will be happy for you to say why.
I'm not that curious.

spendius wrote:

There was nothing careless about what I said. There was no hypocrisy and any stupidity I am more than willing to be enlightened upon.

I disagree completely, and believe your feigned insouciance might be worthy of contempt... if I was really concerned about it.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2011 04:31 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
What is your source for the $60K figure? I doubt it, seriously.
Her weekly wage was documented in this thread earlier,

Quote:
Housekeepers at unionized hotels make $803.93 a week and are due for a 3.5 percent wage increase in July, which would bring their pay to $832.07,
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/15/AR2010091507173_2.html?sid=ST2010091507249

On top of that there are several special pays, paid vacation, and a pretty good medical program. I believe that there is also a pension. We know that in straight wage she is at $43K a year, the idea that the total package cost to the employer is $60K is an educated guess. She also gets tips. I have no trouble believing that between pay, benefits and tips that she made $60K a year back when she was a working woman, before her ship came in.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2011 05:17 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
. Besides he was a European and therefore of little consequence anyway.


There you go. I knew that was at the back of it. Our attitude to American vulgarity must have really niggled you on the joint exercises.

Quote:
Here we think one person's used sheets and towels are much like another.


I've heard a different tale from visitors to your lands.

Quote:
I would be very surprised if there were any special provisions to determine just who cleaned the great man's room.


I would be amazed if there weren't.

Quote:
We just don't have the rank obsessions that so distract you.


You mean you are not allowed to have.

Quote:
Your persistent willingness to prejudge her, apparently without any basis at all, and simultaneous refusal to give any weight to what has been reported about DSK is both hypocritical and deliberately stupid.


I only said she has a fine feminine intelligence. Being in Position A for $3 million from rural Guinea in a few short years is not something many 'ology majors can manage. I have offered my basis on a few occasions. Declaring it stupid is merely noise.

I treat women as serious contenders. I don't patronise them.

georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2011 10:59 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

Quote:
. Besides he was a European and therefore of little consequence anyway.


There you go. I knew that was at the back of it. Our attitude to American vulgarity must have really niggled you on the joint exercises.


Well the attitudes did occasionally get to me, but they appeared to be spontaneous, needing none of our rich directness and vulgarity to get going. Perhaps it was the mere anticipation of our vulgarity that started all the prancing. I found it far worse among the regular Navy types than among the flying officers of 813 squadron that I flew with off (old) Arc Royal. They too were a bit different, but with less forced pretense (though they drank more than we did). In fact several have remained very good friends.

I do recall once, now a long time ago, during a port visit to Gibraltar, back when there were a couple of British battalions there, I was invited to a lunch at one of the regimental messes. In the lobby there were the regimental log books (as we call them) from one hundred and two hundred years ago, each opened to the record of the events of that day one and two hundred years earlier. My escort pointed them out to me with an air of patronizing solemnity, and I leaned close to read the older one. There before me was the report of the Court martial conviction of a private soldier named O'Reilly for the rape of an officer's wife. His sentence was an amazing 400 lashes ! I reacted with a soft grunt and the British Major reassured me saying, "of course he was dead by 300". I asked him if they finshed the sentence. He didn't answer. (Although he did cease the Irish jokes he had been entertaining me with up 'till then.)

I always had the slight impression that they were trying a bit too hard.
spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2011 03:18 am
@georgeob1,
In the 1770s Les majesty was treated severely. As were many other offences.

Frank Haris's descriptions of American treatment of concientious objectors in your prisons in the 20th century tell a similar tale and very few of us know how long it took Ethel Rosenberg to die in the electric chair. In a competition between the US and the British applications of systematic cruelties I would guess it would be a draw. Although the eugenics experiments in the US on completely innocent people in large numbers will possibly cause most people to think you have the edge. And I don't think we have had our hands on extraordinary rendition.

Any ethnic cleansing in Great Britain is too far back for records to show.

Anyway--the heroine in our case is not an officer's wife and I imagine that makes a bit of a difference down in the Yacht Club. It would cerainly have done when Archibald Cary Smith and the NYYC committee were joshing each other in the lounge bar about the standards of domestic servants.

The US failure to rescue the Jews from Hitler until it was too late was obviously an understandable oversight.
spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2011 03:23 am
@spendius,
BTW George--I'm glad I was of service in providing you with an opportunity to tell us some more about your military exploits.
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2011 05:56 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

On top of that there are several special pays, paid vacation, and a pretty good medical program. I believe that there is also a pension. We know that in straight wage she is at $43K a year, the idea that the total package cost to the employer is $60K is an educated guess. She also gets tips. I have no trouble believing that between pay, benefits and tips that she made $60K a year back when she was a working woman, before her ship came in.

I agree that she probably makes ~43K/yr and your estimate for benefits and overhead is right in line with what I would expect, but when you say someone makes $XX k/yr, you generally don't include the overhead and benefit numbers. The only reason it makes a difference is that the median household income in the US is around $50k/yr, so $43k/yr doesn't sound too bad though a little less than average while $60k/yr is noticably above the median.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2011 06:51 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
We know that in straight wage she is at $43K a year

And, after NYC, NYS, and federal income taxes were taken out of her checks, her actual take-home pay would be a very modest amount, and probably just enough to cover the most basic costs of living in NYC for her and her daughter. She likely made some additional income in tips, but there is no way of knowing how much because tipping of hotel maids tends to be somewhat rather random in both frequency and amount.

So, all we know is that she was a hard-working woman who had a steady, relatively decent job that allowed her to support herself and her daughter, and that she was considered a good employee for the three years she at been at the Sofitel.

Of course, none of this is at all related to the issue of whether Strauss-Kahn is guilty of sexually assaulting her, or of why he might have targeted her for such an attack. But, at least one person has said this was not the first time that DSK had sexually assaulted a worker at the NYC Sofitel hotel, and that the Sofitel had covered-up for him in the past. The following translation is somewhat fractured, but the content is clear:
Quote:

While relatives of Dominique Strauss-Kahn rehabilitate the “conspiracy theory” by suggesting that their champion is the victim of a great international conspiracy, Bernard Debré, UMP deputy from Paris, just drop a charge to the extremely serious against the IMF chief.

Asked by Express after a hard ticket he had already published Sunday on his blog, Debre said that Dominique Strauss-Kahn...[had] assaulted in the past... other women in the same... Sofitel New York. He said the multiple attacks were ignored by management against the wishes of employees.

“We must abandon the hypocrisy. This is not the first time that DSK was engaged in this type of behavior at the Sofitel. Here he continued to descend. It was produced several times and for several years. Everyone knew the hotel, “said Bernard Debre, currently traveling in China.

employees were about to revolt. Management knew but dared not say anything until then. It has stifled all other cases. Other maids before Ophelia – a woman charming 32 year old who was working very well – had been assaulted. You have to stop playing virgins. You think the cops in New York reportedly arrested on the plane if they did not accurate information? “added the MP.


“This is humiliating for our country. This is a great shame. Here I am in Shanghai. The Chinese look at me and laugh. They say that all French are obsessed with sex. If we continue to say nothing, it will help the National Front, “says Bernard Debre.


What to make of these very serious charges, Bernard Debre, at a time when all the relatives of DSK assure us that acts of violence alleged in the poll favorite in France does not look like him? Debre he defames his opponent, who seemed in the best position to beat Nicolas Sarkozy in 2012...Is it part of the...plot of the mega international conspiracy that Strauss-kahnienne Michelle Sabban, Vice-President of the Regional Council of Ile-de-France, imagine

Or is it simply courageous, and dare we say out loud what everyone in the small political world knows and prefers to hide from the public? One remembers that at the time of the great campaign of vaccination against influenza A/H1N1, Bernard Debre was the only “authoritative voice” to denounce the scandal of this manipulation by fear.

It may be noted that Bernard Debre attended a few years ago the Club of Ropes, like Gilles Pelisson, Director – General Manager of Accor Group, which owns the Sofitel. Is this club that Bernard Debre would been made aware of the alleged culpable conduct of DSK
http://economicsnewspaper.com/economics/bernard-debre-dsk-accused-of-other-sexual-assaults-25552.html


I am inclined to believe that there may be some truth to what Debre says about DSK's prior behavior at the Sofitel, because a history of prior similar assaults is the one element that might have convinced the hotel management to finally involve the police, whether because of the condition and emotional state of this particular maid, or simply because they had had enough of covering-up for him, and it is the one element that explains why the police and D.A. were so immediately convinced of this maid's credibility and why they moved so quickly to arrest him.

The Sofitel, of course, has denied covering-up any prior incidents, but they have an image to protect and they are involved in a criminal case. But, if true, this sort of information might well emerge at trial because it would reveal a pattern of behavior on DSK's part with regard to hotel workers at that particular establishment. Both the prosecution and the defense would have reasons to withhold such information from the public right now--the prosecution would not want to risk having any of those potential witnesses tampered with, bribed, threatened, or besieged by the media, and the defense would definitely not want such potentially damaging and prejudicial information about their client leaked to the public.

So, I'm not surprised we haven't heard much more about the allegations Debre has made, all sides would have a vested interest in keeping a lid on this sort of information prior to a trial, and that would include other possible past assault victims of DSK at the hotel who would likely not want to get involved in the very ugly business of this case any sooner than necessary.

If the current complainant was not DSK's first assault victim at the Sofitel, it helps to explain a number of things, but mainly why the police and D.A. were so immediately convinced of guilt that they made an arrest within hours, and before DSK could leave the country. They knew the brouhaha and repercussions that would follow from this particular arrest, but they moved pretty decisively and pretty fast despite that. What Debre has alleged might well have been a part of why they responded that way.




georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2011 08:32 am
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

BTW George--I'm glad I was of service in providing you with an opportunity to tell us some more about your military exploits.


Actually it was just lunch - as I noted.

From your rather shrill post above, it does appear that the story stung a bit.

The electric chair was a bit bizarre, but less so than drawing & quartering - or even hanging. It is too bad that we weren't able to also get the spy Klaus Fuchs who was among Britain's "gifts" to our war effort. As for the Rosenbergs, subsequent release of monitored Soviet communications established, beyond any doubt, the facts of both their roles in the Soviet effort to get the details on the Atomic Bomb effort then going on.

Later there was Kim Philby and so many others.

It is indeed sadly true that we didn't rescue all European jews from their horrid treatment at the hands of the Nazis, and their own neighbors in shipping them off to death and stealing their property. We also failed to stop WWI, the destruction of the Ottoman Empire, the Bolshevic revolution and many other European catastrophies.
 

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