9
   

Is the Head of the IMF a Sex Criminal?

 
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2011 12:45 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:

If the current complainant was not DSK's first assault victim at the Sofitel, it helps to explain a number of things, but mainly why the police and D.A. were so immediately convinced of guilt that they made an arrest within hours, and before DSK could leave the country. They knew the brouhaha and repercussions that would follow from this particular arrest, but they moved pretty decisively and pretty fast despite that. What Debre has alleged might well have been a part of why they responded that way.


I think the most likely explanation of the haste exhibited by the police is the very limited extradition treaty we have with the French , and their long track record of refusing extradition of prominent figures accused (and even convicted) of serious crimes (including murder) in this country. Ira Einhorn and Roman Polanski are examples.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2011 01:32 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
We also failed to stop WWI, the destruction of the Ottoman Empire, the Bolshevic revolution and many other European catastrophies.


Very few of us are qualified to discuss those matters George without wallowing in absurdity.

As long as you admit to having negative emotional reflexes about Europeans due to some personal slight in the past satisfies the point I was making. And that the indignation you still feel about it is enough for you to acquiesce to sitting with the ladies on this case.

I am neutral about DSK and the cleaning woman becoming entangled in a doorway at the Sofitel. I'm not neutral about the media presentation of events and not on my own behalf because I'm far too past it for it to impinge on my life. I have given my reasons and they have not been contradicted. They are not concerned with my winning a debating point. It isn't personal. It's an aspect of the fundamental nature of the Faustian spirit to care for the future which no other culture to my knowledge ever embraced.

From a personal point of view I cannot understand how estimable and refined ladies can bring themselves to even speak to men so coarse and lewd are they. Indeed, unspeakably brutish is hardly an exaggeration if one looks at men scientifically. Ladies who can forbear shuddering at the sight of a man have self-evidently been subjected to extensive indoctrination in one of those idiotic co-educational establishments organised by men.

The intolerance and rigor of the law relating to sexual assaults, and the indignation they engender, is proof that such a view is common. One doesn't see levees on riverbanks that never flood. Safeguards are a direct signification of the natural forces they are designed to inhibit.

Bringing up some case from the late 18th century, which I'll allow is probably a true record, was all I was commenting on. I think we might be able to find a large number of such events in all societies and choosing one from among them is really of no account and makes no point except about those who make such points.

But the US did leave the Jews to their fate when many senior Americans were calling for them to be saved as early as 1939. Britain and its Commonwealth and Empire fought against Hitler alone and at great sacrificice and by the time the US decided to lend a hand Hitler was on his knees and easy picking comparativly. As were we. We owed you so much for the assistance you provided. You charged us the going rate for it.

The easy advantage the US gained over a disabled Europe looks to be now almost lost.



BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2011 02:00 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
I am inclined to believe that there may be some truth to what Debre says about DSK's prior behavior at the Sofitel, because a history of prior similar assaults is the one element that might have convinced the hotel management to finally involve the police, whether because of the condition and emotional state of this particular maid, or simply because they had had enough of covering-up for him, and it is the one element that explains why the police and D.A. were so immediately convinced of this maid's credibility and why they moved so quickly to arrest him.


You are back to writing fiction novels it would seem......

No evidence or even leaked claims by the NYC police about any such past misbehaviors at the hotel by DSK that I am aware of at least.

So how can I justify what happen to this man well I will just make up all kind of facts out of thin air.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2011 03:01 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

As long as you admit to having negative emotional reflexes about Europeans due to some personal slight in the past satisfies the point I was making. And that the indignation you still feel about it is enough for you to acquiesce to sitting with the ladies on this case.
I have no such reflexes; received no such slight; and make no such admission. My personal experiences in Europe have been almost all very good and pleasant. My judgments reflect my considered understanding of history.

spendius wrote:

But the US did leave the Jews to their fate when many senior Americans were calling for them to be saved as early as 1939. Britain and its Commonwealth and Empire fought against Hitler alone and at great sacrificice and by the time the US decided to lend a hand Hitler was on his knees and easy picking comparativly. As were we. We owed you so much for the assistance you provided. You charged us the going rate for it.

The easy advantage the US gained over a disabled Europe looks to be now almost lost.

Many nations and Empires were equally able to accept mass Jewish immigration from Germany then ... yours included. I suspect the reasons they did not are many and varied, but also include lack of comprehension for what was about to happen (until it was too late) and a reluctance to accomodate a hateful regime in any way, .... as well as the unsavory elements you are suggesting. However, we didn't deceive the Zionists with promises broken as soon as they were given (the Balfor Declaration) and then abandon them in 1948.

That you fought alone and with some sacrifice was a direct consequence of your government's behavior and that of your ally, France during and after the formulation of the Treaty ending WWI, and, in particular, your failure to exercise your rights under that treaty when it could easily be done. There were reasons for that, of course, particularly including fears of the USSR. However, all of that was a consequence of the folly of WWI, and that was a purely European affair. Many Americans, seeing the wholesale expansion of empire and revolution that followed WWI, then resented our involvement, didn't want to repeat the error, and sought to resore our historical distance from European affairs. Events have consequences. I recogmize that the habits and expectations of empire die hard, but we really are independent.

Hitler was perhaps "easy pickings" by late 1941, but the effort still took four years, millions of lives and much treasure. We also had the Japanese to deal with and the chore of invading the many Pacific island bases they took from Germany during WWI at the urging of your country - and over the objection of mine.. In terms of casualties and cost that effort eclipsed what we did in Europe.
spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2011 03:32 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
I have no such reflexes; received no such slight; and make no such admission.


You said earlier--

Quote:
Well the attitudes did occasionally get to me..


And I would hardly have mentioned it had I not noticed it before.

I'm not really bothered about all this historical sophistry.

I don't think you understand the argument I'm putting on here. I think hawk has an inkling of it but is unable to explain it to people who simply don't wish to know. And I think I can.

But I haven't time now. I will attempt it tomorrow. Suffice to say here that these noisemakers haven't the slightest interest in the cleaning woman and they are harming women our women with their indignation freakouts. I've hinted at it in my last post. And in others.

The events in the Sofitel are not that important. Harming the generality of ordinary women is important. 900,000 homeless kids is important. 120,000 homeless kids here is important. Syria is important.

The seniority of the accused is what has provided the opportunity. Not the alleged incident. Either what the NYPD alleges of what DSK alleges. There are many such incidents every day I gather although I never hear of any round here. That's what has brought out what Bill called the "blowflies".

The next thing is what are the blowflies up to? And it's exactly what Schopenhauer said it was.
panzade
 
  2  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2011 03:34 pm
@spendius,
Britain and its Commonwealth and Empire fought against Hitler alone and at great sacrificice and by the time the US decided to lend a hand Hitler was on his knees and easy picking comparativly.

Ahh yes. The Empire. The whole point of Churchill's insistence on attacking the "soft underbelly of Europe" was to protect the Empire in the Middle and Far East wasn't it?


The easy advantage the US gained over a disabled Europe looks to be now almost lost.


I can't even begin to describe my contempt for this sort of bleating.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2011 04:00 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

[The seniority of the accused is what has provided the opportunity. Not the alleged incident. Either what the NYPD alleges of what DSK alleges.


No, that's merely your interpretation. The legal facts of the incident are that an apparently innocent woman says she was attacked and preliminary evidence, approved by a Grand Jury, indicates a prima face case that the incident indeed occurred, and that DSK was the perpetrator. The issue will be resolved in a court of law. The eagerness of the police to apprehend DSK before he fled the country is a consequence of France's longstanding refusals to extradite foreign nationals and U.S. citizens, in their custody or residence, convicted of serious crimes ranging from the forcible rape of a 15 year old girl (Roman Polanski) or premeditated murder (Ira Einhorn). Unfortunately for DSK, whatever goodwill remained was pissed away by the French on the aforementioned pair.

The generalizations about women and the speculations about the motives of the victim in this case are all rather vaporous and frankly uninteresting to me.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2011 04:05 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
evidence, approved by a Grand Jury, indicates a prima face case that the incident indeed occurred and that DSK was the perpetrator.


Give us all a break on this grand jury nonsense as 98 to 99 percents of the time a DA will get the true bill he ask for from a grand jury.

It is now both a rubber stamp and a tool for the state and have not acted as a public safe guard it was intended to be for all or at least most of it history.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2011 04:49 pm
@georgeob1,
Footnote on Grand Juries is that every once in a blue moon a Grand Jury will act with the autonomy the founders wish them to show from the state and the name given to such a rare event is a " runaway grand jury".

Thankfully this is a very very rare event and most government prosecutors can rest peacefully knowing his grand juries are just tools for him to used.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2011 05:12 pm
@georgeob1,
Now you're starting to sound like ff George. Apart from the "pissed" which I assume was inserted to help us distinguish.

I'm well aware of how "vaporous" and "uninteresting" and "stupid" and "hypocritical" and "shrill" I am to those who dare not contemplate my not being.

The motives of the victim --ahem!!!!! Excuse me!! The alleged victim. Self alleged victim I shoud say. They are of as much interest as the motives of any other alleged victim. They are fun to speculate upon. Such fun being far more important than "generalizations about women" which are of no importance at all. Obviously. Who gives a **** about the generality of women when there's all this stimulating fun to be got from speculating about this cleaning woman. And so much money to be made with no beer produced, no bread, no electricity. Such as asserting, without qualification, that she's a victim. I daresay she is in a position that millions of the generality of women envy deeply and profoundly and will be meditating on how to arrange such an outcome for themselves.

The chaps in the pub are lined up on this according to whether they have sons or daughters. Just as they are on the abortion issue.

And as this thread is exclusively about generalizations about women and the speculations about the motives of the victim--oops--sorry--the alleged victim, ( and those riding in her skirts), it is difficult to understand your participation if you find it all vaporous and frankly uninteresting.

Think levees George and what cameras and barbed wire and armed guards tell you about a building.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2011 05:16 pm
Quote:

The New York Times
June 14, 2011
From African Village to Center of Ordeal
By ANNE BARNARD, ADAM NOSSITER and KIRK SEMPLE

She was born in a mud hut in an isolated hamlet in Africa with no electricity or running water, a 10-minute hike to the nearest road. Unschooled, she was married off to a distant cousin as a teenager, had a daughter and was soon widowed.

Not long after, in her early 20s, she arrived in the United States — one more anonymous immigrant struggling to make a new life. She served stew in a cubbyhole of an African restaurant in the Bronx, and landed a more stable job a few years ago as a housekeeper changing the sleek sheets at the Sofitel New York, in Midtown Manhattan.

Then came the encounter on May 14. The woman told the authorities that she was sexually assaulted by the French politician Dominique Strauss-Kahn while cleaning his suite at the hotel. Now she finds herself in the glare of international scandal.

Lawyers for Mr. Strauss-Kahn have signaled they will scrutinize her character and background in a case that pits her word against his. Mr. Strauss-Kahn was head of the International Monetary Fund and a leading contender for the French presidency before his arrest.

He has hired private detectives as well as prominent defense lawyers who have said in court papers that they have “substantial information” that could “gravely undermine her credibility.” They have not provided any details.

In dozens of interviews with people who know her or are familiar with her life, the woman, now 32, is portrayed as an unassuming and hard-working single mother. The interviews were conducted in New York and in her homeland, Guinea, with relatives, neighbors, co-workers and former employers. The woman herself has stayed out of public view in recent weeks and has not spoken to reporters.

“She is a village girl who didn’t go to school to learn English, Greek, Portuguese, what have you,” said her older brother, 49, whose first name is Mamoudou. “All she learned was the Koran. Can you imagine how on earth she is suffering through this ordeal?”

“The place where she is now,” he added, “I don’t even know where it is.”

Religious Upbringing

The woman, the youngest of five children, was raised in a deeply religious household, according to Mamoudou and another brother, Mamadou, who is in his early 50s. Both brothers still live in a village called Thiakoulle, where they grew up with her.

(Guinea, in West Africa, is a mostly Muslim country, and many men from the woman’s ethnic group are called some variation of Mamadou, which is Muhammad in the local language, Fula. The New York Times generally does not identify people who say they have been victims of sexual assault. To protect the woman’s identity, The Times has also omitted the surnames of her relatives.)

Their father was a respected local imam, and when they were young they studied at home, the brothers said, using a set of traditional wooden panels inscribed with passages from the Koran.

As a girl, she was shy, sheltered and raised to respect authority.

“Before she left here, nobody even knew if she could speak up for herself,” Mamoudou said. “She never got into any arguments, with anybody.”

“Even if she were hungry, she wouldn’t tell you,” he added during an interview in the family home, a spartan, concrete structure that replaced the thatched-roof hut where she was born. Leather-bound holy books rested on a table. The only picture on the wall was of a white-bearded elderly man, their father, now deceased.

She lived in the hamlet until she was a teenager, then moved, possibly for work, to Guinea’s capital, Conakry, a 13-hour drive along rugged mountain roads. Two months later, her father summoned her back to the village. He had found a husband for her, a distant cousin. She had no choice but to obey, her brothers said.

The couple moved to a region three hours away, where she gave birth to a daughter.

But when her husband became ill and died, the woman moved with her daughter to the capital, where Mamadou was living at the time.

In the meantime, her sister, Hassanatou, had followed a Guinean husband to New York, joining compatriots who, compelled by poverty, political turmoil and ambition, had immigrated. In 2002, the woman decided to leave Guinea, too. She spoke no English at the time.

“Everybody wants to go to the U.S.,” Mamadou said. “You know why people leave Africa.”

Settling in the Bronx

It is not clear how the woman gained entrance to the United States. In the 12 months ending in September 2002, the United States issued 4,410 visas to Guineans, a vast majority for business trips or tourism, officials said.

But by the time she began her job as a housekeeper at the Sofitel in 2008, she had legal status and working papers, her lawyers said.

After coming to the United States, she settled in the Bronx, where many in New York City’s small Guinean population have blended in among other West African immigrant groups in neighborhoods like High Bridge, north of Yankee Stadium, Claremont and Morrisania.

The community was still recovering from the killing of Amadou Diallo, a street vendor from the woman’s region and ethnic group, who was shot to death by the police in 1999 in a case that received widespread attention. The officers were acquitted after testifying that they had mistakenly thought he was pulling out a weapon.

The woman melted into this community. She did not seem to be well known even in the neighborhoods where Guineans often lived.

After prayers at a few West African mosques, Guineans often go to Guinean-owned restaurants to eat cooked cassava leaf and beef stew, drink homemade juice made from hibiscus flowers and watch television broadcasts of African news and sports. They shop at Guinean stores that sell West African staples like cornmeal, yams, palm oil and spices.

In Guinea, a former French colony, many people closely follow the news from France. In fact, one of the oddities of this case is that before he was arrested, Mr. Strauss-Kahn — often referred to in the Francophone world as DSK — was probably better known in Guinea, at least among the educated, than in the United States. (It does not appear that the woman knew of Mr. Strauss-Kahn before the encounter in the hotel room.)

After arriving from Guinea, the woman showed up one day at African American Restaurant Marayway, near Grand Concourse in the Bronx, looking for a job, recalled the owner, Bahoreh Jabbie, who hired her.

For several years, she worked the busy evening shift, helping Mr. Jabbie and his wife, Fatima, in the kitchen behind smudged bulletproof glass or serving customers at the restaurant’s three tables. Her daughter sometimes stopped by to visit.

Mr. Jabbie, an immigrant from Gambia, in West Africa, said the woman revealed little about her private life, but was a steady worker. “She was good with me,” he recalled.

During this period, she received asylum, her lawyers have said, though they have not revealed the basis of her asylum petition to federal immigration authorities.

According to community leaders and immigration lawyers, most Guineans who have received asylum in recent years have sought sanctuary from political persecution in their homeland, though others have petitioned to avoid social practices, like female genital cutting and forced marriage.

One day, the woman told Mr. Jabbie that she was leaving the restaurant for a better paycheck at the Sofitel hotel.

With that, she entered a new world, with a grand, golden canopy and wood-paneled suites, blocks from Times Square. She was considered a good employee there.

In her telephone calls home to Guinea, her brothers recalled, she talked only about her daughter, now in her teens, and never about the rest of her life.

Still, she could have drawn on the company of a growing extended family, with one relative living among a cluster of West Africans on Wheeler Avenue in the Bronx, where a street sign and mural commemorate Mr. Diallo near the building where he was shot.

“On Sundays, he had 50 to 60 people over in the backyard,” recalled Andre Landers, a retired police officer and neighbor, referring to the woman’s relative. “When they had a baby born, they had ceremonial get-togethers.”

The only other hint of the woman’s social life came from acquaintances who said she would sometimes stop by a West African restaurant, Café 2115, on Frederick Douglass Boulevard in Harlem, where livery-cab drivers and others eat, socialize and watch French news programs on widescreen televisions.

“She isn’t a fiery woman,” said a friend, who did not want to be identified so as not to appear to be meddling in the case.

At home, for fun, the woman watched Nigerian comedies on DVD, the friend said. “She was watching that every day,” he added.

Newfound Scrutiny

For now, her life, once unremarkable, is under intense scrutiny — by journalists and lawyers, and investigators working for the prosecution or the defense. Mr. Strauss-Kahn’s lawyers have already suggested that any sexual encounter was consensual, an assertion that her lawyer has called preposterous.

Her lawyer is a former federal prosecutor whose practice includes criminal defense and employment discrimination matters, and who has obtained large civil settlements for his clients.

Meanwhile, in the immigrant neighborhoods that she has called home for the past nine years, residents are also trying to get a sense of a woman very few have met.

For many in the Guinean population, which has fierce ethnic rivalries that reflect tensions back home, the case has taken on a special resonance.

The woman is a member of the Fulani ethnic group, Guinea’s largest, which has suffered years of persecution by other ethnic groups. Many Fulani feel that their grievances have never been fully addressed.

“It wakes up the trauma that we have,” said Mamadou Maladho Diallo, a Fulani journalist in New York.

The woman’s brothers in Guinea said they had not spoken with her since the hotel encounter with Mr. Strauss-Kahn. One brother produced a notebook with several New York cellphone numbers that he said were his sister’s. He has tried calling them, but no one has answered.

The brothers seemed worried and confused about what was happening.

But they said their sister’s upbringing would anchor her as the case against Mr. Strauss-Kahn proceeded.

“She has faith,” her brother Mamadou said. “She will never change that.”

Adam Nossiter reported from Guinea, and Anne Barnard and Kirk Semple from New York. Reporting was contributed by John Eligon, William K. Rashbaum and Rebecca White from New York, and Abdourahmane Diallo from Guinea.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/15/nyregion/strauss-kahns-accuser-portrayed-as-quiet-hard-working.html?scp=3&sq=strauss-kahn&st=cse

This woman might wind up with a lot of money as a result of a civil settlement, but I think that will mainly be at the instigation of her attorney. This simple hard-working woman really doesn't sound like a person who would be considered a gold-digger or someone who would be motivated for money--and that may be the biggest problem for DSK's attorneys in trying to discredit her.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2011 05:24 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
or someone who would be motivated for money
You say in spite of the fact that she walked into her last employer and said that she was moving on for more money, and from the sounds of it did not have the decency to give notice. And this is the same woman who elected to do a great deal of work to get herself out of her impoverished nation and to America.
spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2011 05:30 pm
@firefly,
Do the $3,000 dollar a night clients of the Sofitel know that the cleaning women who have access to their rooms are straight from serving stew in a cubbyhole of an African restaurant in the Bronx having, I presume, been given a wash and brush up and stuck into a uniform.

Really??
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2011 05:31 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

You say in spite of the fact that she walked into her last employer and said that she was moving on for more money, and from the sounds of it did not have the decency to give notice. And this is the same woman who elected to do a great deal of work to get herself out of her impoverished nation and to America.

You consider working your butt off to get to the US and pursuing a higher paying job as a negative? I think most people would consider that the sign of someone with a lot of drive.
spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2011 05:34 pm
@firefly,
And there's a frank admission that the case "pits her word against his" and thus that her word was sufficient to present the MD of the IMF in the manner that he was before Judge Melissa Jackson, an oxymoron if ever I heard one, and sent to Riker's Island to languish in a cell.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2011 05:35 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
You consider working your butt off to get to the US and pursuing a higher paying job as a negative?
I think it says that this woman is not like her family claims to be with their "we have God, we dont need money!" claims, and that she very certainly does care about money. I am sure that most Americans approve, however those who care about justice should consider will the financial advantages to her of her claim, should weight how self interest might impact the way she chooses to tell her story.
spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2011 05:39 pm
@spendius,
STOP PRESS. CBS NEWS 2 minutes ago. Life expectancy for women has declined by 2 years in nearly 800 counties in the USA and is lower than it is in Libya.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2011 05:45 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

And as this thread is exclusively about generalizations about women and the speculations about the motives of the victim--oops--sorry--the alleged victim, ( and those riding in her skirts), it is difficult to understand your participation if you find it all vaporous and frankly uninteresting.


It is as you describe only to yourself and a few others. Most of my posts have been attempts to put that highly speculative stuff in as factual a context as possible, and to focus on the objectively interesting aspects of the case -- engaging as it does aspects of past extradition and other related disputes between this country and France; the coming presidential election in France: a distinguished and (in some quarters) notorious prominent figure in a legal confrontation with an immigrant from Africa. Another interesting aspect of the matter involves some aspects of the European-American cultural divide - an excess of reverence and deference to authority figures on the one hand and an excessive fondness for watching them fall on the other.

I sometimes think you try too hard too. First you dredge up past slights or perceived failings of ours in an attempt to score a point or criticize our culture or legal system. Then, when you get a considered and factual response, you declare it all sophistry and that you can't be bothered with it. OK, then don't bring it up.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2011 05:54 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
but I think that will mainly be at the instigation of her attorney. This simple hard-working woman really doesn't sound like a person who would be considered a gold-digger or someone who would be motivated for money--and that may be the biggest problem for DSK's attorneys in trying to discredit her.


LOL once more Firefly picture a woman as a poor helpless child control by her lawyers and this is a woman who got out of a hell hole by her efforts with little education to aid her.

She is a proven surviver not a helpless victim.
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2011 06:29 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
LOL once more Firefly picture a woman as a poor helpless child control by her lawyers and this is a woman who got out of a hell hole by her efforts with little education to aid her.

She is a proven surviver not a helpless victim.

I didn't say she was helpless. She sounds very self sufficient and hard-working.

But, I really think it might be her attorney who is motivated to collect the really big bucks in a civil settlement. And, at the moment, the woman is surrounded by lawyers with competing interests. The prosecutor does not want a civil suit filed before the criminal trial because that could be used to damage her credibility by suggesting financial motives. So, she's realistically going to be pressured on all sides. She may well opt to continue cooperating with the D.A. and delay a civil suit if she feels that is the right thing to do morally. We have no idea how much her religious values might influence her thinking.

 

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