19
   

How would you fix the U.S Government?

 
 
Pukka Sahib
 
  3  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2011 08:37 am
@Fido,
Happily, our “nation of laws” is not based on morals or religious precepts.
Fido
 
  0  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2011 05:23 am
@Pukka Sahib,
Pukka Sahib wrote:

Happily, our “nation of laws” is not based on morals or religious precepts.
Do you have any idea what you are talking about??? Social forms like law are built up out of moral forms, guiding ideas... Western Law grew out of Cannon Law which in many respects grew out of Jewish Law... There are elements of Roman Law and Tribal Law... There is Natural Law growing out of the Roman Law of Nations which was the first place human equality was put forward, though it was in the equality of nations... In that respect you should look at the meaning of nation, and all the words associated with it, all of which spring from natal, (navel), the attachment to mother and to all with a common mother...

We have no common mother in this land which is a fact that makes it all too easy for some to justify our exploitation to themselves... The closest we come to a common mother is an idea, a moral form called justice the ultimate expression of which is liberty, and that is our soul mother... Those who want freedom for themselves and slavery for everyone else are sorjourners here, aliens who need to be driven into the sea, or back to their native lands... It is because if we have no justice we will have no equality and no liberty and we will sink into the same state of destitution and slavery as every other country...
Pukka Sahib
 
  4  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2011 06:51 am
@Fido,
Yes I do know what I am talking about. If morality is the basis of the law, then the question is: Whose morals should be applied ( i.e., your morals, my morals, Justice Antonin Scalia’s morals - the so-called “moral majority”)? It’s impracticable - it simply doesn’t work. The problem is that people don’t understand this, and insist that it be otherwise.
Fido
 
  0  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2011 08:59 am
@Pukka Sahib,
Pukka Sahib wrote:

Yes I do know what I am talking about. If morality is the basis of the law, then the question is: Whose morals should be applied ( i.e., your morals, my morals, Justice Antonin Scalia’s morals - the so-called “moral majority”)? It’s impracticable - it simply doesn’t work. The problem is that people don’t understand this, and insist that it be otherwise.
Though it may seem on the surface that morals differ with community, in fact, their difference is purely superficial... What is moral serves the good of the community... What is immoral puts the immoral outside of his community even if he or she is never found out... The problem with our law is that too much that is immoral has been made legal, and what is not right is treated as though a right... We have many people in this society who look on the masses as a shepherd looks at sheep, as only a way of making money... It is not the obvious outlaws that society can exclude that are the greatest threat to us, but the outlaws the society for ideological reasons refuses to recognize, who go about sucking the life from society that are the true danger...
Pukka Sahib
 
  3  
Reply Fri 20 May, 2011 09:26 am
@Fido,
Our modern law and legal system is not based on moral or religious precepts, but upon principles of utilitarian philosophy first enunciated by Jeremy Bentham. See Jeremy Bentham. See Introduction to the Principles of Morals and Legislation (1789); cf., William Blackstone, Commentaries on the Laws of England (1765-69). Bentham was one of the great moralists of his time; but he realized that the law could not be based on morals or religious principles of right and wrong. (His concept of morals was more of a secular ethics that was pragmatic in its application; i.e., the only moral standard is one of the desirability, or undesirability, of the consequences of the law.) Both English and American jurisprudence have sided with Bentham’s “Positivism” and rejected the moral based doctrine of Blackstone, albeit we adopted it sooner than our English forebears. (Bentham was very progressive; his writings cover virtually every aspect of the law and the administration of justice; and his ideas have further influenced the constitutions and laws of many European countries and the Americas even to this day.)

In the final analysis, and from whatever perspective you may choose, the conclusion is ineluctable: the law can not be based on morals, religious or otherwise. The idea that the law must have a moral component is at once refuted by its own impracticability in application. One need only look to our own failed effort to incorporate morality into the Constitution under Prohibition to see that such an idea is unworkable. The point is, simply, that you cannot legislate morality.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 12:12 am
@Pukka Sahib,
I vaguely remember what you said, and I also remember what I learned in Business Law course about "common law," but that was about five lifetimes ago.
Pukka Sahib
 
  3  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 07:45 am
@cicerone imposter,
“We have met the enemy and he is us."
- Walt Kelly

We don’t need to fix our government; what we need is to fix ourselves. To have twice elected a President who considers the Constitution “just a Goddamn piece of paper” is symptomatic of a more serious malady afflicting the American people for which we have failed to take responsibility. For those that live in a democracy, they should look first to themselves as responsible for their institutions of government. Ours is a constitutional republic - a representative form of government - and if you will not stand for elected office and serve, then give your support to one who will serve the public interest. The least one can do is cast an informed vote: for what value is the franchise but its exercise? Indeed, it is a fundamental failure of democratic principle when elections are determined by apathy and ignorance. Our elected representatives and officials are a reflection of our society; and, ultimately, ourselves. It is fitting that, in a democracy, the people should have the government they deserve.
Fido
 
  0  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 08:23 am
@Pukka Sahib,
Pukka Sahib wrote:

Our modern law and legal system is not based on moral or religious precepts, but upon principles of utilitarian philosophy first enunciated by Jeremy Bentham. See Jeremy Bentham. See Introduction to the Principles of Morals and Legislation (1789); cf., William Blackstone, Commentaries on the Laws of England (1765-69). Bentham was one of the great moralists of his time; but he realized that the law could not be based on morals or religious principles of right and wrong. (His concept of morals was more of a secular ethics that was pragmatic in its application; i.e., the only moral standard is one of the desirability, or undesirability, of the consequences of the law.) Both English and American jurisprudence have sided with Bentham’s “Positivism” and rejected the moral based doctrine of Blackstone, albeit we adopted it sooner than our English forebears. (Bentham was very progressive; his writings cover virtually every aspect of the law and the administration of justice; and his ideas have further influenced the constitutions and laws of many European countries and the Americas even to this day.)

In the final analysis, and from whatever perspective you may choose, the conclusion is ineluctable: the law can not be based on morals, religious or otherwise. The idea that the law must have a moral component is at once refuted by its own impracticability in application. One need only look to our own failed effort to incorporate morality into the Constitution under Prohibition to see that such an idea is unworkable. The point is, simply, that you cannot legislate morality.
Nonsense... His effect, and he was a nut, was stictly limited..
Fido
 
  0  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 08:46 am
@Pukka Sahib,
Look here you Rabbit... All our social forms are attempts to realize our moral forms... The goods of the preamble were supposed to be achieved by the constitution... Aristotle says as much, that it is for good that governments are created, and he says that because good is the aim of all human activity... The problem is not the ideal, or the object, but is the fact that people lose sight of the objects and ideals their social forms are supposed to achieve, and start thinking of government, for example, as a thing in itself, the possession of which can lead to wealth out of power... As far as the actual legislating of morality the problem is where to begin... Since moral forms all lack exact definition no one can fix them by law... In order to coerce certain moral behavior you must do something immoral, coerce, which means to take the freedom necessary to be moral..

There is an expression in Latin: Montani Semper Liberi; Montaineers are always free... No one can ever be compelled to be free, but people can be compelled to be slaves... People can be tied to a plow, but no one is ever driven to the mountain top... In fact, freedom is as essential to morality as morality is to freedom... One never needs more government than to protect oneself from others, and the moment anyone thinks to turn government to the control of others they are the ones all need protection from...So, you cannot legislate morality, but you can by government encourage the situation in which all can be freely moral, and morally free...

It was a point in common with all the major Western Religions that the intelligent must control the brutes... What was there then to keep the intelligent from growing brutish??? The Communists were usually the most moral of men, but given the power of the state they soon became so many Stalins...

Power over others is that quality a moral man most avoids, and power over self is that quality he most desires... The one is freedom, and the other is slavery for both slave and master...
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 08:48 am
@Pukka Sahib,
Pukka Sahib, You've stated it very well, and that's how I've tried to live my life as an active citizen of this country. I have voted in every election since I was able, and I'll be 76 years old in a couple of months. I have written to my congress members on the important issues including not to go to war in Iraq, but Congresswoman Diane Feinstein saw fit to ignore my plea. I have also written to several presidents, but never to GW Bush.

I voted for Obama, but have become disillusioned with many of his decisions on the economy and the extension of our troops in Afghanistan. His lies are the worst, because he shows he has no ethics. I don't know who Obama is; do you?

It's been very discouraging to see the destruction of our republic during the past two presidencies.

Your point about you cannot legislate morality is spot on! Even religion has failed morality.
0 Replies
 
Pukka Sahib
 
  2  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 08:51 am
@Fido,
You are wrong. Jeremy Bentham was (and still is) the most influential legal philosopher for the last four hundred years; and his principles of Utilitarianism are the basis of our law today. His influence is pervasive, covering every aspect of the law and its applications. Even our present-day maximum-security prisons are based on his “Panopticon” model.

A current example of the difficulty in applying a moral standard to the law is illustrated by the recent decision of the Supreme Court in the case of Roper v. Simmons. In that case, the court ruled that the Eighth Amendment prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment forbids the imposition of the death penalty on offenders who were under the age of 18 when their crimes were committed. In reaching that decision, the court interpreted the provisions of the Eighth Amendment in reference to “evolving standards of decency” in the implementation of the death penalty that canvassed the several states as well as the law of international tribunals. In a separate dissent, Justice Antonin Scalia, who is not shy when it comes to reconciling his personal morals and religious beliefs with his legal opinions, became surprisingly secular in his views, accusing the majority of proclaiming itself the “sole arbiter of our Nation’s moral standards . . .” in a process that he likened to “counting Amishmen.” See Roper v. Simmons, 543 U.S. 551 (2005).

The interesting aspect of the decision, however, was that moral standards had nothing to do with the case. Our juvenile justice system is based on the concept that minors are not culpable; not that minors are incapable of committing acts that would otherwise be punishable as crimes - even heinous crimes - but that, as a matter of public policy, it is not in the interest of society to treat juvenile offenders as criminals, however morally reprehensible. It is Utilitarianism, plain and simple. Yet for the court to base its ruling on some nebulous, moralistic consensus, however composed, was rather uncertain, not to say dubious; and in this, the court may have reached the right decision for all the wrong reasons. The decision of the court was clear; however the means applied to making its decision (viz., “evolving standards of decency”) were anything but clear. When you start applying moral standards to the interpretation of the law, the question inevitably becomes "whose morals"; and there's the rub.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 08:53 am
@Pukka Sahib,
Sometimes, though, juves are charged as adults in some crimes; a rare exception to be sure.
Pukka Sahib
 
  2  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 09:12 am
@cicerone imposter,
Yes, they are hard cases. And, as Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. observed: “. . . hard cases make bad law. . . .” Northern Securities v. United States, 193 U.S.197 (1904)
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 10:27 am
@Pukka Sahib,
Also, it applies to the developmentally handicapped who are charged with crimes.
0 Replies
 
hamilton
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 10:44 am
obviously, with complete control, we'd know what to do.
but how can we bring about it?
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  0  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2011 05:42 am
@Pukka Sahib,
Pukka Sahib wrote:

You are wrong. Jeremy Bentham was (and still is) the most influential legal philosopher for the last four hundred years; and his principles of Utilitarianism are the basis of our law today. His influence is pervasive, covering every aspect of the law and its applications. Even our present-day maximum-security prisons are based on his “Panopticon” model.

A current example of the difficulty in applying a moral standard to the law is illustrated by the recent decision of the Supreme Court in the case of Roper v. Simmons. In that case, the court ruled that the Eighth Amendment prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment forbids the imposition of the death penalty on offenders who were under the age of 18 when their crimes were committed. In reaching that decision, the court interpreted the provisions of the Eighth Amendment in reference to “evolving standards of decency” in the implementation of the death penalty that canvassed the several states as well as the law of international tribunals. In a separate dissent, Justice Antonin Scalia, who is not shy when it comes to reconciling his personal morals and religious beliefs with his legal opinions, became surprisingly secular in his views, accusing the majority of proclaiming itself the “sole arbiter of our Nation’s moral standards . . .” in a process that he likened to “counting Amishmen.” See Roper v. Simmons, 543 U.S. 551 (2005).

The interesting aspect of the decision, however, was that moral standards had nothing to do with the case. Our juvenile justice system is based on the concept that minors are not culpable; not that minors are incapable of committing acts that would otherwise be punishable as crimes - even heinous crimes - but that, as a matter of public policy, it is not in the interest of society to treat juvenile offenders as criminals, however morally reprehensible. It is Utilitarianism, plain and simple. Yet for the court to base its ruling on some nebulous, moralistic consensus, however composed, was rather uncertain, not to say dubious; and in this, the court may have reached the right decision for all the wrong reasons. The decision of the court was clear; however the means applied to making its decision (viz., “evolving standards of decency”) were anything but clear. When you start applying moral standards to the interpretation of the law, the question inevitably becomes "whose morals"; and there's the rub.
I doubt that anyone today would seriously consider any of Bentham's social ideas any more relevant than PLato's Republic... I am certain you misunderstand the notion of morals, and that is not so unusual...

Morals are community, and the acceptance of community morals is generally membership in the community... What influenced primitives to be moral, which on the one hand was the threat from strangers who were enemies, and from God, or the gods was effective in its day... Modern law has created the legal individual and worked to break down all natural communities... It is a false notion to believe you can have moral behavior without the community to enforce it, and put it in perspective... We do recognize that in a society where all are considered individuals, the best expression of individualism is the outlaw... For that reason our national heroes have always been outlaws... What is the virtue such people personalize???

Consider; that if things had turned out little different, all our founding fathers might have been hanged... Lincoln was considered a criminal by nearly the entire South who in turn were little different from criminals, and should have been treated so except for the unilateral desire for reconciliation... What were the differences between Jesse James, Billy the Kid, and Bonney and Clyde and the dead President on the twenty dollar bill...

We cannot have both law and order, and crime and freedom... Kids know, and in fact, everyone knows that the true, only, and best expression of individualism is crime... When I say people try to legislate morality it is in view of the obvious fact that this society, in order to have the individual and to bust communities legislates so much of immorality... The fact is that morality being ethics is a certain genus of behavior that encompasses all behavior... Even the most immoral of behavior is moral... As much as any criminal can hate humanity, they cannot escape the moral perspective through which their behavior is judged...
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 May, 2011 11:46 am
@Fido,
It's really not that complicated. The standard for community is based on the safety of all its citizens, and laws established that attempts to control what it deems immoral behavior. Depending on the form of government of the community, it can control behavior by degrees.

Humans are animals with animal instincts; some individuals can control those instincts, and some cannot.
Fido
 
  0  
Reply Tue 24 May, 2011 05:53 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

It's really not that complicated. The standard for community is based on the safety of all its citizens, and laws established that attempts to control what it deems immoral behavior. Depending on the form of government of the community, it can control behavior by degrees.

Humans are animals with animal instincts; some individuals can control those instincts, and some cannot.
It is impossible to make laws covering every situation without so empowering the state as to make freedom impossible....It is easier to feed morality than to stiffle initiative... If people have control in their lives to the extent that only their own lives are affected, and then share control with others in their lives on larger issues then you have a complete democracy... To think you can control the behavior of the immoral -which means accepting the company of the immoral in ones society is crazy...For most people, laws mean loopholes... No sooner is a new tax law considered than loopholes are looked for, and some times they are installed in the process...

This teaches the whole society that if the rich can evade their responsibility to society then all are justified in doing so... It is the law that encourages immorality... No cop means no speed limit... Not everyone can afford a ticket, or a radar detector... Everyone with a licence has the sense to realize the number of police is limited, and the number of drivers is unlimitted, and that the barracudas can get some bait fish, but most escape...

What is the alternative??? Will we have as many cops as drivers??? The price of law wnforcement is breaking society, and there is no end to law breaking in sight... Will we have cameras and radar units on every road automatically sending out tickets... It is so bad that many people cannot turn left at a stop light without an arrow, and some times there is no arrow, and so they sit until some one with a brain pulls up behind... The fear of law paralyzes some, and gives licence to others... Do you see what I mean??? The infiltration of law into all our activities teaches contempt of law, or it controls with fear to such an extent that by no stretch of the imagination are people free...
fernald
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 May, 2011 10:51 am
@Food For Thought,
We vote too much. The political ground lurches one way or the other every two years. Good men and women with good ideas ( and both parties have good ideas )
are not able to get them in place because of time. That's TIME in all caps brother and sister. It's time to give the House Representatives a 4 year term concurrent with the President's.

It may be possible to implement this at the state level and without a constitutional amendment.
0 Replies
 
fernald
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 May, 2011 11:09 am
@Renaldo Dubois,
The newest fertility testers should one day eliminate the need for abortions. Some women may wish to simply have a readable chip under their skin to give them an ovulation alert.
0 Replies
 
 

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