You can/may go out...

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You can/may go out after you have finished your homework.

Which word in bold can I use? Or is either acceptable.

Many thanks.

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Type: Question • Score: 2 • Views: 6,853 • Replies: 100

[+4] - Francis - 03/25/2011[img]http://gismonda.pagesperso-orange.fr/might.png[/img]
[+3] - roger - 03/22/2011Permission is being given, so 'may' is correct. You will hear 'can' about as often.
[+3] - Oylok - 03/22/2011Term of the day: [b]grammatical relativist[/b]. Definition: (Noun) The worst possible kind of grammar Nazi. :evil: Having read [i]The Chicago Manual of Style[/i] and other sacred texts and...
[+3] - laughoutlood - 03/23/2011[quote] "Can I play the piano?" [/quote] '' Like Stravinsky", Monica intoned.
[+3] - laughoutlood - 03/23/2011You could use can or you might use may.

@tanguatlay,

They have slightly differing meanings.

You CAN - means you are physically able.

You MAY - means you have permission.

They are, however, often used interchangeably these days.

0 Replies

@tanguatlay,

Permission is being given, so 'may' is correct. You will hear 'can' about as often.

1 Reply

@roger,

Quote:

Margo wrote: They have slightly differing meanings.

You CAN - means you are physically able.

You MAY - means you have permission.

They are, however, often used interchangeably these days.

Quote:

Permission is being given, so 'may' is correct. You will hear 'can' about as often.

Margo, if you think about this for just a moment, you will realize that that old prescription is absolute nonsense. 'can' has many meanings, not just "physically able". In this example, and for many many many others, 'can' denotes permission.

Roger, that is false info. Corpus studies show that 'may' is rarely used [in a comparative sense to other modals] and the times that it is used most frequently, which still is not frequent is in more formal adult-child situations, possibly because there are still large numbers of teachers who think this canard has some veracity.

Quote:

M-W

can

...

usage:

Can and may are most frequently interchangeable in senses denoting possibility; because the possibility of one's doing something may depend on another's acquiescence, they have also become interchangeable in the sense denoting permission. The use of can to ask or grant permission has been common since the 19th century and is well established, although some commentators feel may is more appropriate in formal contexts.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/can

1 Reply

Quote:

some commentators feel may is more appropriate in formal contexts.

This commentator feels "may" is more appropriate in all contexts.

It depends whether you want to speak properly or not. Btw, JTT, that excerpt from M-W did not support the assertion you apparently were seeking to make.

1 Reply

@McTag,

You're not a commentator, McTag. You're a guy with a bit of an interest in language, but you've read all the wrong source material and it's becoming apparent that you weren't/aren't bright enough to question the inane crap that you find in those sources.

That this is the case is apparent with your all too frequent,

"It depends whether you want to speak properly or not. Btw, JTT, that excerpt from M-W did not support the assertion you apparently were seeking to make."

If you were in possession of anything that was germane you'd state it. You never do.

Is it possible for me to borrow your new book when you're done with it? =

Can I borrow your new book when you're done with it? =

Could I borrow your new book when you're done with it. =

Would I be able to borrow your new book when you're done with it. =

Do I have your permission to borrow your new book when you're done with it?

[= means equal in the sense of permission, not equal in the degree of politeness]

1 Reply

@JTT,

Some people can disagree without being unpleasant. You don't seem to manage that. In fact, you seem not to be able to make a point without making an arsehole of yourself.
Pity.

1 Reply

@JTT,

JTT, I don't think tanguatlay really cares which word makes more rational sense in this context.

The OP is probably more interested in knowing which word sound classier.

So ... I think we're looking for the snobbier word, and, clearly, that word is "may."

JTT wrote:

Margo wrote:
They have slightly differing meanings.

You CAN - means you are physically able.
You MAY - means you have permission.

Margo, if you think about this for just a moment, you will realize that that old prescription is absolute nonsense. 'can' has many meanings...

The fact that "can" has so many modern usages just makes the case for "may" that much more compelling. Speak precisely; disambiguate; use "may." Rolling Eyes

1 Reply

Term of the day: grammatical relativist.

Definition: (Noun) The worst possible kind of grammar Nazi. Evil or Very Mad

Having read The Chicago Manual of Style and other sacred texts and having mastered all there is to know in that frustratingly narrow field of human endeavour called prescriptive grammar, this pedant in populist clothing attempts to kick away the ladder for everyone else by telling them that "anything goes", in order to make herself seem smarter, relative to everyone else. Wink

(To be avoided at all costs...)

1 Reply

@Oylok,

Quote:

JTT, I don't think tanguatlay really cares which word makes more rational sense in this context.

The OP is probably more interested in knowing which word sound classier.

So ... I think we're looking for the snobbier word, and, clearly, that word is "may."

I don't think you read Ms Tan's question, Oylok. You couldn't have because actually, she asked,

Which word in bold can I use? Or is either acceptable.

That little word 'can', above, underlined; in this sentence it holds the meaning of permissible.

The answer to that is not to give the one that's most polite and to suggest that because it's more polite, it's somehow more correct. You should have thought this through before you leapt in.

Because not only are both acceptable, again if you had read the pertinent portions of the thread, you might have discovered that English native speakers overwhelmingly choose 'can' over 'may' for permission.

They also choose 'could' over 'may' by a wide margin and I believe 'would be able to ...' over 'may', again by a considerable margin.

Does 'could' in those usages mean "I had the ability"?

Quote:

The fact that "can" has so many modern usages just makes the case for "may" that much more compelling. Speak precisely; disambiguate; use "may."

You really don't have any idea how many times that piece of nonsense has been used over the centuries.

Following your line of reasoning, we shouldn't use 'may' because it also has many other modal meanings and these aren't "modern", in the sense of new, usages.

0 Replies

@Oylok,

You've caught yourself in that definition, Oylok, with your advice in your previous post.

The Chicago Manual of Style is a piece of crap when it comes to defining the grammar of English. The reason; they asked Bryan Garner, a dolt on the same level as Strunk & White, a guy who knows precious little about English grammar or how language works.

The "anything goes" crew would include you, McTag, Roger and Margo because the advice given doesn't reflect actual English usage.

1 Reply

@JTT,

JTT wrote:

The "anything goes" crew would include you, McTag, Roger and Margo because the advice given doesn't reflect actual English usage.

This may be because of our background - we (McTag and I) speak English, apparently as does Roger, and not American, as, apparently, does JTT. In English, my answer is correct.

We are also usually better mannered, but I guess that doesn't count here! Your personal critcism of McTag was unnecessary and incorrect.

2 Replies

@margo,

Quote:

This may be because of our background - we (McTag and I) speak English, apparently as does Roger, and not American, as, apparently, does JTT. In English, my answer is correct.

It is indeed because of your background, Margo. Somewhere along the line you were exposed to the same bit of prescriptive nonsense that McTag was and you two bought it, hook, line and sinker.

Notice that the use by Ms Tan in her original sentence, using 'can' to ask about permissibility, blew right by you, and Roger and McTag and Oylok. It blew by you because it's completely natural.

This is one of the dumbest prescriptions ever. Everyone, that's every native English speaker on the planet uses 'can' for permission.

You say that you speak English, which I assume means BrE. Well, as it happens, so do the folks who write the Oxford English dictionary.

Quote:

can

modal verb

2 be permitted to:
you can use the phone if you want to
nobody could legally drink on the premises

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/can?rskey=pAj2Cz&result=1#m_en_gb0119090

and lo and behold, we have as definition number 2, "be permitted to". The reason they include that definition is because, as I said, every English speaker on the planet uses 'can' for permission, with much much greater frequency than 'may'.

Have you abandoned the notion that 'can' only means ability? And what now would be the premise upon which you would defend such a nonsensical idea?

The two lead authors of The Cambridge Grammar the English Language, Rodney Huddleston and Geoffrey Pullum, also speak BrE and their belief also is that this is simply another silly prescription.

[You can read a bit about that book here,

http://www.amazon.ca/Cambridge-Grammar-English-Language/dp/0521431468

1 Reply

@JTT,

JTT wrote:

This is one of the dumbest prescriptions ever. Everyone, that's every native English speaker on the planet uses 'can' for permission.

Then they do so at their own risk...

1 Reply

@McTag,

It's exceedingly unpleasant to listen to rants about "speaking properly" from someone who regularly exhibits that he has not a clue about language.

It's unpleasant to hear your comments with never a bit of proof/discussion about why you believe something to be so, beyond the inane example above.

For dog's sake, McTag, all anyone has to do is look in a dictionary, any dictionary to see that the "reason" for such nonsense simply doesn't exist. When the major proof is gone, it's not at all bright to fall back on an even more lame idea.

2 Replies

@JTT,

Smashing, some english will be, in 500 orbits.

0 Replies

@Oylok,

Can you possibly come up with something dumber, Oylok?

There are dismal brained teachers all over the US who teach their students this nonsense then turn around and in the next breath use 'can' for permission themselves. I remember a teacher telling me that the kids just didn't get it because they continued to use 'can' for such a purpose.

That same teacher then proceeded to use 'can' for permission some ten times in the course of a couple of hours. You can't stop natural language behavior with silly prescriptions.

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@JTT,

I know the terms can be, and are, used interchangeably, especially in informal situations.

However on this side of the pond, among educated people, there is a no-too-subtle difference between "Can I play the piano?" and "May I play the piano?"

There is a distinction there, and I for one would like to keep it. In many other respects too, I find Merriam-Webster quite disappointing, too loose.

2 Replies

@tanguatlay,

I hope this discussion/ shitstorm is shedding some light on your original question.

Quote:

You can/may go out after you have finished your homework.

Which word in bold can I use? Or is either acceptable.

"May" has another meaning too, which you should be aware of, as in:
I may go out later, if it doesn't rain. Here, it means "might".

1 Reply

@McTag,

Quote:

"Can I play the piano?"

'' Like Stravinsky", Monica intoned.

1 Reply

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