2
   

You can/may go out...

 
 
tanguatlay
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2011 10:56 am
@laughoutlood,
laughoutlood wrote:

Quote:
"Can I play the piano?"


'' Like Stravinsky", Monica intoned.
Yes, you can/may.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2011 12:20 pm
@McTag,
Quote:
"May" has another meaning too, which you should be aware of, as in:
I may go out later, if it doesn't rain. Here, it means "might".


No, 'may' does not mean 'might', McTag. If it meant 'might' then there'd be no reason for 'might' to exist. 'might', like 'may', in these cases, is acting in its epistemic [level of certainty] mode. 'might' expresses a lower level of certainty than 'may'.

JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2011 01:02 pm
@McTag,
Quote:
I know the terms can be, and are, used interchangeably, especially in informal situations.

However on this side of the pond, among educated people, there is a no-too-subtle difference between "Can I play the piano?" and "May I play the piano?"


You create a no context situation where potential ambiguity exists and then suggest, with no proof whatsoever that this "educated" group follows the subtle difference. Of course that's not possible because you don't even understand the subtle difference.

It's not educated to fall for and pass on nonsense about any topic and it certainly isn't educated to think that you are doing so now on this particular language issue.

I can find copious examples where 'may' suggests either permission or possibility. Why aren't you and the other prescriptivists whining about finding a better word than 'may' to make it clear whether permission or possibility is being expressed?

Because you are such a confused lot you don't know bloody well where to begin. All you can do is memorize bogus rules and when you're questioned fall into the equally bogus "well educated people ..." or "language needs clarity ... ".

As Geoffey Nunberg says;

"The linguists are at least forthright in their rejection of linguistic morality. Their opponents, the defenders of traditional values, are more deceptive. They talk a great deal about morality, but in millenarian tones, as if the rules of grammar were matters of revealed truth rather than the tentative conclusions of thoughtful argument."

That's you in a nutshell, McTag. Go back over your posts and see how often you use that imperious yet empty manner of language discussion. Look at the posts of the others who defend these dumb prescriptions. You'll find that same bone-headed pattern.

Quote:
There is a distinction there, and I for one would like to keep it. In many other respects too,


You keep making these weak motions towards describing a subtle distinction that doesn't exist. When the necessary context exists, and it does in real life, there is no "subtle" distinction.

Quote:
I find Merriam-Webster quite disappointing, too loose.


After all this time, you still don't understand, McTag. See what I mean about having people who know squat and are not willing to invest the time and brain effort to get up to speed.

The only reason you think M-W is "too loose" is that they illustrate clearly the lies that are prescription. This thread, among others, is testament to dispelling any notion that you understand the complexity of these subtleties of language.

You certainly could, for you're a very bright guy, but ... .
roger
 
  2  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2011 01:40 pm
@margo,
He sure puts me in a rough group, doesn't he?
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2011 01:45 pm
@roger,
Quote:
He sure puts me in a rough group, doesn't he?


No, in this particular case, Roger, just an ignorant group.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2011 04:31 pm
@JTT,

Quote:
No, 'may' does not mean 'might', McTag. If it meant 'might' then there'd be no reason for 'might' to exist. 'might', like 'may', in these cases, is acting in its epistemic [level of certainty] mode. 'might' expresses a lower level of certainty than 'may'.



Isn't this just so much twaddle? You're in danger of disappearing up your own fundament.
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2011 04:34 pm
@JTT,

Quote:
you're a very bright guy, but ... .


I'm getting confusing mixed messages, here. Which to believe? Which to trust? A good thing I'm not neurotic, eh.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2011 04:38 pm
@McTag,
Quote:
Isn't this just so much twaddle?


There's that millenarian tone again, and, sadly, we must note, McTag, nothing else.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2011 04:45 pm
@McTag,
Quote:
I'm getting confusing mixed messages, here. Which to believe? Which to trust? A good thing I'm not neurotic, eh.


Notice the avoidance, McTag.

You remain in this state of confusion because your mind fails you, or more likely, you fail your mind, when the subject turns even remotely difficult.

0 Replies
 
margo
 
  2  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2011 07:37 pm
@roger,
roger wrote:

He sure puts me in a rough group, doesn't he?

Not as rough, and ill-mannered, as some, Roger. We're all pretty charming in this group! Well spoken, too!
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2011 08:21 pm
@margo,
Quote:
Well spoken, too!


No doubt you are, Margo, but you're seriously deluded if you believe that following nonsense rules like the one under discussion makes you well spoken.

I understand that that delusion is from a lifetime of simply accepting something without giving it any thought and for this you can't be blamed unless you persist in your state of ignorance.
0 Replies
 
laughoutlood
 
  3  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2011 10:51 pm
@tanguatlay,
You could use can or you might use may.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Mar, 2011 03:27 am
@JTT,
Quote:
No, 'may' does not mean 'might', McTag. If it meant 'might' then there'd be no reason for 'might' to exist. 'might', like 'may', in these cases, is acting in its epistemic [level of certainty] mode. 'might' expresses a lower level of certainty than 'may'.


That's wrong.

Quote:
Notice the avoidance, McTag.

You remain in this state of confusion because your mind fails you, or more likely, you fail your mind, when the subject turns even remotely difficult.


There is no need for me to elaborate on the original statement. If you want to dance all over this simple matter in your academic hobnailed boots, then that's your choice. If any confusion remains in your elegant and well-informed mind, please consult a good dictionary before you come back to me on what you perceive as the difference in meaning or usage between "may" and "might".
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Mar, 2011 09:47 am
@McTag,
Quote:
There is no need for me to elaborate on the original statement. If you want to dance all over this simple matter in your academic hobnailed boots, then that's your choice. If any confusion remains in your elegant and well-informed mind, please consult a good dictionary before you come back to me on what you perceive as the difference in meaning or usage between "may" and "might".


There is every reason in the world for you to elaborate. You made a statement that is false. You are the one doing the dancing, you are always the one doing the dancing, McTag.

Just ask yourself, and remember your meme about clarity in language, why would we use 'might' if we wanted to say 'may'?
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Mar, 2011 12:41 pm
@JTT,

Quote:
Just ask yourself, and remember your meme about clarity in language, why would we use 'might' if we wanted to say 'may'?


Because they are interchangeable? Please consider, if you've forgotten, that English is full of words which mean the same thing. We've even got a word for this.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Mar, 2011 01:14 pm
JTT wrote:
No, 'may' does not mean 'might', McTag. If it meant 'might' then there'd be no reason for 'might' to exist. 'might', like 'may', in these cases, is acting in its epistemic [level of certainty] mode. 'might' expresses a lower level of certainty than 'may'.


So then, "may" and "might" can't be used interchangeably since they don't share some meanings; they have nuanced differences with "might" expressing a lower level of certainty than "may," yet "can" and "may" don't have nuanced differences and are interchangeable? Why then do they both exist?

Also, in the sentence, "which word in bold can I use?" can is used to mean possibility a/o appropriateness.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Mar, 2011 01:48 pm
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
So then, "may" and "might" can't be used interchangeably since they don't share some meanings; they have nuanced differences with "might" expressing a lower level of certainty than "may,"


I didn't suggest that they couldn't be used interchangeably in some circumstances. I said that 'might' does not mean 'may'.

Obviously, one speaker may choose to use 'may', another 'might' to describe their take on a given circumstance.

A single speaker could sit right at the point of division between the levels/scales of certainty expressed by may and might and could vacillate between the two,

That might ... that may be the case.

These modals all express a certain range of level of certainty. That shouldn't lead us to suggest that 'must' means 'probably/likely' or 'will' means 'must'.

Quote:
yet "can" and "may" don't have nuanced differences and are interchangeable? Why then do they both exist?


I didn't say that the two don't have nuanced differences, Infra. Where did you come up with that? I've often explained that modals have a great number of nuances. I explained that, in addition to the meaning of ability that 'can' has, it also holds the meaning like 'may' of "allowable/permission".

Modal nuance is especially varied in its deontic senses. 'might' can hold a meaning of ought/should but the nuance varies.

I've also never said that they are interchangeable for all circumstances or scenarios.

They are interchangeable for asking permission as are 'could', 'would' and 'might' and certain other collocations using variants of those three, and possibly others that escape me at the moment.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Mar, 2011 01:54 pm
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
Also, in the sentence, "which word in bold can I use?" can is used to mean possibility a/o appropriateness.


That is one of the nuances it holds. That 'appropriateness' also equates to 'permissableness',
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Mar, 2011 02:19 pm
@McTag,
Quote:
Because they are interchangeable?


This deontic use shows they are not.

May I borrow your pen?

Might I borrow your pen?

Deontic uses derive mainly from the modals' base epistemic meanings.

Quote:
Please consider, if you've forgotten, that English is full of words which mean the same thing. We've even got a word for this.


What might that word be?

[Is 'may' interchangeable here, McTag?]
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Mar, 2011 04:32 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
I didn't suggest that they couldn't be used interchangeably in some circumstances. I said that 'might' does not mean 'may'.

Obviously, one speaker may choose to use 'may', another 'might' to describe their take on a given circumstance.

A single speaker could sit right at the point of division between the levels/scales of certainty expressed by may and might and could vacillate between the two,

That might ... that may be the case.


So then, in some circumstances it's up to the speaker to decide the range of level of certainty expressed by "may" and "might" to the point that they can mean the same thing contradicting what you had said to McTag, "may" does not mean "might." As you've just demonstrated, in some circumstances they can.

Quote:
I explained that, in addition to the meaning of ability that 'can' has, it also holds the meaning like 'may' of "allowable/permission".


Just like, in certain circumstances, "may" holds the meaning like "might" contrary to what you had said, "may" does not mean "might."

Did you merely forget to qualify the statement by saying "in some circumstances"?

If so, I think we all can take it for granted that some words have the same meaning as others in some circumstances, while in others they don't.
0 Replies
 
 

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