Pierced out of work

Bi- I am a bit of a rebel myself, have a big mouth, and think that my ideas are usually pretty sound. I could never work for a boss who had such an authoritarian manner, no matter WHAT the business!

no room in bills world for free thinkers phoenix...sorry....we're filling the position with Stephanie Stepford.....

Any more than two quotes in a post and I lose it....

I guess that's why I'll never be a Leader of Men.

I wonder if you've ever tried to manage a large sales force. I remember when I first took a job as a sales manager. I had previously swore that if I ever got that position I'd listen to what everyone had to say, treat everyone as an equal and by golly everyone would be so happy! Result: I spent 4 to 6 hours a day listening to people whine and listening to the same ideas over and over and over. I put in 80+ hours a week and barely kept a crew of 8 reasonably in line… I'm sorry folks; nice isn't always right.
I've read several books on the subject; and most seem to agree that one man cannot manage more than 10 or 12 people effectively. Bunk. My "one right way" philosophy allows me to oversee dozens of people with very little effort whatsoever. Everyone knows the rules. Everyone knows the procedures. Few people want to argue with me a second time and it takes a truly exceptional person to get away with it a third. My people also enjoy higher than average pay in exchange for working in an environment devoid of middle management and almost no secretarial assistance. Contrary to your beliefs; most of my employees consider themselves their own boss because as long as they go by the book; there is not much for me to tell them. Am I arrogant? Perhaps. I've developed a great deal confidence in my systems over the years and I suppose you can call that arrogance, but I don't see it that way. My "stepford employees" are happy, prosperous and I assure you most appreciate NOT having some middle management jerk looking over their shoulders all the time. In my experience; 80 percent of the human race will snitch out everyone they know and you usually you don't even have to ask, anyway. I am fair, consistent and very well respected if not necessarily all that well liked. It works… well enough that I already find myself pondering how much is enough?


No need to apologize. You are entitled to your opinion… even if you are wrong. I re-read the post and I didn't see anything I haven't said in a meeting every 3 months or so. That's my picture you see left of my posts, and sooner or later I'm sure one of my folks will stumble onto A2K. You must not be paying attention if you think I'm afraid to speak my mind. I'm seldom a hypocrite and the only time you'll see me back down from a position; is if I'm wrong… and then you'll hear me admit it and apologize if it's appropriate.
I also disagree with you about what motivates people most. "Above everything", I think most people want a decent paycheck. Those destined to make policy will evolve into policy makers, just not for me.

Based on that 2 paragraph statement, I doubt I'd have many takers, I require applicants to read a very large policy book BEFORE I will consider their applications. When my way stops working, I'll change my way. As it happens, I could never work for a man like me either. :wink:

BPB, I wish you'd stop misinterpreting my business philosophy with my whole world. I have little use for anyone other than free thinkers in my personal life. And for that matter, one need not be a robot to follow strict rules. :wink:

OCCOM BILL- I hear what you are saying, "Buy the premise, buy the package". And I also understand what you are saying about spending a good deal of time listening to bitching and griping. I have done that too in my business life, and finally learned that a SOMEWHAT structured environment works best for most people. But, I do believe that there needs to be a middle ground.

I don't know if you understand the ramifications of what you are saying, but it sounds to me that what you are doing, ultimately, will lead to frustration and anger on the part of staff. Staff needs to know that they are appreciated, and that their thoughts and ideas are, if not implemented, at least considered. In addition, I think that you may be missing out on some great ideas, because you are averse to listening to your staff.

I ran a large program, with a lot of employees. I always believed in a management style that I thought of as "loose structure". In other words, there were certain things that needed to be accomplished by staff. I didn't care if they did the work standing on their heads, if that was what they wanted, as long as the work was done in a timely fashion.

Also, I DID treat staff differentially. There were some people who needed more structure, and I provided it for them. With others, I could be confident that they could "run with the ball", without me looking over their shoulders.

Studies have shown that although pay is important, it is the intangibles that keep people loyal to a company. And one of the most important of the intangibles is by management demonstrating to employees that their staff is valuable to the firm, and not just interchangable parts!

I feel you phoenix. And I would bet your management philosophy serves you well.
Mine has resulted in an 8-fold increase in profits in as many years and I'm not one to fix that which isn't broken. I place a premium on my time and, as you can probably tell, I am not well suited to be a therapist anyway. I do chair gripe sessions when I feel they are necessary, but that is not very often. Once accustomed to it, most people accept the inherent fairness in treating everyone identically and, as a result, I seldom have to do any managing at all. Most every employee there can answer the common questions exactly the way I would, because my answers seldom change.
I should tell you that I do clean the break area myself when I arrive, then greet everyone personally, before taking a seat in the middle of an open concept office. I pick up lunch, if I'm there, and frequently take the entire staff out after work. I've been told I'm the best boss ever and I've been told I'm the biggest azzhole that ever lived and everything in between. At the end of the day, I never really cared. That office represents only one of many irons I have in the fire. I won't apologize for its sole purpose being to make me money. I cheat no one. I'm upfront with my demands and I'm always consistent.
Until recently I was hell bent on achieving what I thought was wealth. A recent visit to Costa Rica has me reevaluating my core values once again. The people there, although poor, seemed to be happier than any group I've ever seen. Their eyes reflect the tranquility ascribed to citizens of "Galt's Gulch". I may join them one day soon. My best friend, my father and my sister and her family have now all agreed to vacation with me there soon. It may be time for us all to become expatriates. Perhaps my successors in business will be more "feelings" oriented people.

This is a tough one. I agree with both sides. I think this means my brain is not working right.

SOunds like everyone believes that businesses are democracies. OC Bill has it pretty much the way it really is. of course we take employees ideas and I have a stock purchase/ownership schedule that keeps the best employees. As far as span of control, We use a team approach, in which we have group managers and discipline practice heads. Im not the last word on geochem projects one of my invested partners is.
Bi perhaps youve been in your own business with a focused clientele and can do whatever you wish, but your observation of slavery is amazing. This thread seems to be shifting into what some people think business IS or IS NOT.
In a company like mine, everyone must feel invested or recognize the opportunity of ownership. I must see that , when I get kicked out, I get all my money with a return. My company started as my dream and so-far, everyone buys in and Ive got only the teams to show for its success. In that respect i cannot argue with Bills statements. With the minor proviso, I want my company to go on after me and have built in an employee ownership schedule. I give them , and me, portions of earnings and my board votes on the distribution. most professional service companies operate this way.
bill is not being arrogant, hes being accurate about how the ship is steered. the difference between his and my company, it appears, is that I have a heavy burden of conflict of interest and standard engineering practices to deal with. I have , in place, an ethics committee that is separate from management and can tell managem,ent to go to hell. This is a necessary thing because we work mostly for large companies who, despite what we think, have better ethics requirements in hiring and conflicts of interest than do the Feds.

I think we put the spikey face thing to bed, id actually like to see a thread on what we each believe in concerning our own business practices (the only limiting respoinse reason i see is that there may be a minority of a2k ers who run businesses, I dont know)
there are some things that a small business can do , or a law firm can do, or a sales company can do, that others cannot.
One last respectful shot at bi, despite evidence to the contrary , you keep a rather 1960s attitude. i too am approaching 55 and was in the same generation. ive changed my political leanings at least twice since adulthood. The most recent was when I started my business almost 15 years ago. it was then that I, a reagan supporter discovered the gutting of policies that created business opportunities for lawyers mostly. Then i discovered that most businesses , when faced with a decision that affects peoples lives, WILL NOT do the correct thing. This brought me back to the left of center. However, beyond that, im still a gun lovin fiscal conservative i dont feel that we owe anybody anything thats not earned and I certainly dont feel all touchy feely about rules being arbitrary.
Thats why ive noticed that you have a propensity to cipher unintended meaning out of others statements and you seem to have some unresolved rage that shows up as your own form of "moral high ground"
Ill know better next time that when you want an argument, you really just want people to agree with you. i , of course recognize that you didnt start this post but youve been its most visible advocate.

I didn't realize you were a psychologist farmerman I thought you were an engineer.

I have no unresolved rage whatsoever. People who talk down to others without reason piss me off, but that's out front annoyance, not unresoved rage.

I would like you to present some examples of my propensity to cipher unintended meaning from the statements of others, if you can do that without making the blanket statement that this thread is the example.

I don't think anyone is owed anything they don't deserve either, but one thing no one deserves is to be dismissed out of hand for reasons of appearance.

I stand by everything I've said on this thread 110%

As for wanting to argue to make people agree with me, you're completely off base. I don't expect to ever change anyones mind here, but I do expect to state my position and stick to it, and I will argue against yours until the cows come home if I disagree with it. If you consider that a character flaw of some sort, then by all means go ahead.

I believe the following link says it all for all of us.

TURN UP THE VOLUME AND SCROLL.......

http://www.americanbridge.com/taters.htm

and those who pierce themselves are "crinkle cuts" :wink:

Im not going to be stalking your threads cuz I pick and choose to what I respond. When I come across a point made, Ill Pm you, thats fair neh?

Are you talking to me farmerman?

I never considered you'd stalk anyones' threads in this forum.

We can bitterly disagree on this thread but that doesn't mean I think badly of you, I just think you're way off base on this one particular subject.

Is he a program language inventor or a serial killer?
I thought this site appropriate to the original thread discussion, which has now progressed into something else. ---BBB

By looking at a person's face and dress, can you tell whether he is a program language inventor or a serial killer?

http://www.malevole.com/mv/misc/killerquiz

Fascinating discussion, but not one that could take place in Canada. FIre/not hire someone because of appearance and they figure it out - your company's ass is going to be sued and you'll lose.

I work in a very conservative industry - I've got tattoos, many of my colleagues in the industry do - piercings of many types are found at industry events - the young woman sitting next to me, who was just promoted for the 2nd type in a year - she's got one of those piercings that results in laaaaaarge holes in the earlobes - the kind you can see through after a few expansions. The company tried to insist people not wear jeans - a lawsuit was threatened - they backed off - another company in our industry lost a clothing related lawsuit not too long ago and had to pay big $$$.

ebeth uptightness over nothing is America's National product.

It seemed for a while there that we were loosening up about that kind of thing, but now we're swinging back to the fifties. That's what I meant with the McCarthy/Eisenhower reference in my first post.

It's as though, if life is a television program, we are converting back to black and white. Very dull and disapointing, especially after getting used to great color.

I almost moved to Canada in the late 70's.

The flip side is that I've never seen people wear their p.j.'s out in public here, and I've seen it in the U.S., and just read an article in a U.S. news mag about how it's not uncommon.

Gotta admit I was startled the first view times I saw people in sleep pants out and about on their daily business, hopping out of their SUV's etc.