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House of Reps. member Giffords shot in Arizona today

 
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 10:48 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:

What are you asking for? For me to imagine non-existent evidence and quantify the level at which I would find it convincing? What kind of answer do you want? That I would find 75.68 units of imaginary evidence to be a sufficient amount?

The bottom line here is that there is really nothing at all, anything would be a start from here. There's little to indicate that this person even consumed this political speech, much less that he was influenced by it. And it's not just the absence of evidence to support your political scapegoating but that all the current evidence points to quotidian, apolitical madness being the primary factor here. If his political speech isn't very influenced by the speech you claim it is (that would likely be the first thing to be influenced) then I find it hard to believe that this act is, in the absence of any documented speech that is similarly inflicted. His political rants just don't match up to your scapegoats.

Multiple acquaintances have related that he was angry at his target ever since an encounter where she dismissed one of his stupid questions and that seems much more likely as motivation for his target selection than your pet political arguments do of being shoehorned into fitting the event. None of his ranting really ties into any of the speech you guys criticize, it's paranoid nonsense about government mind control.

If the guy were aping the political speech you are criticizing it might make sense to blame it but this guy just hasn't been connected to that kind of politics at all, and there is plenty of evidence that he's just a nutjob who was angry at her after an encounter he had with her where she treated him as much.

But now let me ask you a question of the same kind of hypothetical nature: Just how ridiculous a connection would it have to be for you not to make it about the right? How little evidence would there need to be not to leap to that conclusion?


I'm beginning to think you're one of those nerds who just doesn't have much common sense; has to discuss the craft of watchmaking to someone who simply asks him the time of day. Seriously, are you dense, or just acting like it? I've said at least 4 times that I'm not referring to this guy and this particular shooting, and I've stipulated that his motives probably have nothing to do with anyone's speech or politics. I've also said that both sides - left and right - have vitriolic speech, and tried to make it plain to you that my question refers to vitriolic speech in general, and not just that of the right.

Yet you keep coming back to this shooting and the accusations against the right. No Robert, I'm not asking you a question that's tantamount to 'how many angels can dance on a pinhead' like you suggest, or anything nearly that obscure. What I asked is perfectly reasonable. You just don't want to engage on that level for you own reasons. But there is nothing wrong with the question "What would constitute proof of correlation between vitriolic speech and violent acts?" - especially when its being asked of someone who acts like all extant suggestions of such a connection are patently ridiculous.

You're patently ridiculous, because the only conclusion that, by elimination, you suggest is sensible is that all such violent acts against political figures occur in a vacuum, unaffected by the constant 24/7 rants of rabble rousing radio and tv hacks - or anything else.
Butrflynet
 
  2  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 11:00 pm
A lot of good common sense for everyone in this column by Frum:

http://www.frumforum.com/what-palin-needed-to-say-after-giffords-shooting

The shooting in Arizona shocked the nation into grief – and presented Sarah Palin with an immediate political problem: her now-notorious gunsight map.

Palin scrubbed the map from her Palin PAC website, and then issued the following statement on her Facebook page:

My sincere condolences are offered to the family of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and the other victims of today’s tragic shooting in Arizona. On behalf of Todd and my family, we all pray for the victims and their families, and for peace and justice.

Then, as Palin came under a barrage of criticism, Palin supporters stepped forward to offer defenses. The gunsights were not really gunsights. The criticism of Palin was unfair, even “obscene.”

And of course, Palin and her supporters had some justice on their side. Obviously, Palin never intended to summon people to harm Representative Giffords. There was no evidence that the shooter was a Palin follower, and in short order it became evident that he was actuated by a serious mental illness. Whatever you think about Palin’s “don’t retreat, reload” rhetoric, it could not be blamed for this crime.

So – argument won? No. Argument lost.

Palin failed to appreciate the question being posed to her. That question was not: “Are you culpable for the shooting?” The question was: “Having put this unfortunate image on the record, can you respond to the shooting in a way that demonstrates your larger humanity? And possibly also your potential to serve as leader of the entire nation?”

Here it seems to me are the elements of such an answer.

(1) Take the accusation seriously. That does not mean you accept the accusation, nor even that you explicitly acknowledge it. But understand why people – not all of them necessarily out to get you – might feel negatively about this past action in light of current events.

(2) Express real grief and sincere compassion. “My condolences are offered” is not the language of someone whose heart is much troubled.

(3) Be visible. They’re laying flowers at the congressional office of Gabrielle Giffords. Any reason you can’t join them?

(4) Join the conversation. You have often complained about out-of-bounds personal comments directed toward you (eg, David Letterman’s). Now try to show toward others the same empathy that you demand from others. Innocent as you feel yourself to be, try to imagine how it must have felt to be Giffords during this past campaign season: guns showing up at her rallies, her offices vandalized, death threats – and your map as the finishing touch. Imagine how her family must feel. Speak to them.

(5) Challenge your opponents. In the past hours, many people have cited President Obama’s (borrowed) line about bringing a knife to a gun fight. They have a point! At the same time as you publicly commit to raise your game, invite your political opponents to raise theirs. Instead of deflecting the blame, share it.

(6) Raise the issue of mental health. Remember how you were going to be an advocate for children with special needs? Can’t more be done to intervene to help potentially dangerous schizophrenics – and to protect society from the risk of violence? (Read this by Dr. Sally Satel to start your thinking on the subject. ) The best way to underscore that Loughner was not motivated by Tea Party ideology is to remind them of what did impel him.

(7) Think what you would like – not your supporters – but your opponents to say about you. “She was tough, but never a hater.” “No matter how strongly she disagreed, she was always gracious.” “I might not agree with her answer, but I could see she had thought hard about it.” Then, having thought about it, go be that person.

(8) Last: suppose you were president right now. The country would want you to say something about this terrible crime. What is that something? Say it now.

Of course, Palin has yet to give the answer called for by events. Instead, her rapid response operation has focused on pounding home the message that Palin is innocent, that she has been unfairly maligned by hostile critics. Which in this case happened to be a perfectly credible message. And also perfectly inadequate. Palin’s post-shooting message was about Palin, not about Giffords. It was defensive, not inspiring. And it was petty at a moment when Palin had been handed perhaps her last clear chance to show herself presidentially magnanimous.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 11:01 pm
@ossobuco,
Actually, people start to explain themselves well. I'd like to read more. Maybe not hugely much more, but not just terse ripostes.


On me being a fuffer, that was a joke.
What a gloom room of doomers..

Rockhead
 
  0  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 11:03 pm
@ossobuco,
I never thought of you as a fluffer...
OmSigDAVID
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 11:03 pm
@ossobuco,
What 's a fuffer ?
ossobuco
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 11:07 pm
@Rockhead,
Chortle...

0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 11:11 pm

For the Record:
I like Sarah Palin; I voted for her in 2008.
I agree with a lot of what she has said.

For reasons of personality, and her gender,
I do not believe that she can be elected President in 2012.
We who yearn for the freedom of Original Americanism
need to find a candidate elsewhere.

IMO, the Drs. Paul are our best hope; (father or son).
Thay are champions of American Liberty.





David
Rockhead
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 11:15 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
what she lacks in intelligence, she makes up for with ambition...
BillW
 
  0  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 11:15 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
Chortle...
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 11:16 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Do you have no imagination, David? surely it is a plucking flukker.

You are spelling brat, David. Give me a little room, I'm a word brat. Or splat. I play with words.

Ok, I'll be quiet. Back to serious.
OmSigDAVID
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 11:18 pm
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:
Do you have no imagination, David?
Another question is whether yours and mine co-incide.





David
OmSigDAVID
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 11:20 pm
@Rockhead,
Rockhead wrote:
what she lacks in intelligence, she makes up for with ambition...
She is energetic.
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 11:21 pm
If you miss Jon Stewart tonight on the Daily Show, be sure to watch his comments on the events in Arizona and how the media and punditry have responded to it:

http://tv.gawker.com/5730178/watch-jon-stewarts-poignant-speech-on-the-arizona-shooting
0 Replies
 
IRFRANK
 
  0  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 11:22 pm
@Rockhead,
Quote:
what she lacks in intelligence, she makes up for with ambition...


Don't forget opportunism. She is good at that.

Rockhead
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 11:23 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
so is that little bunny with the batteries.

I don't want him for president either...
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 11:25 pm

The WISE man is a good opportunist.





David
0 Replies
 
Rockhead
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 11:26 pm
@IRFRANK,
I think she should be the spokesperson for Walmart.


really...
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 11:30 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
They don't, in fact galacies will go into reverse, but in the meantime, we could meet for lunch if I ever get to New York. But then I'd have to kill you.


Ok, ok, inappropriate for this thread. I'm as serious as anyone else but sometimes I get out of hand.
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 11:31 pm
@Rockhead,
Rockhead wrote:
while I think you have special qualities which would allow you to understand repulsive kooks,
I think snood falls well short of the mark some of the rest of you have set.

just saying...
I think he is OK, as long as u keep him on Ignore. Then he falls short enuf.





David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 11:34 pm
@ossobuco,
Lemme know when u come;
I 'll wear my bulletproof vest.

Just don 't poison the dessert.

I STILL don 't know what a fuffer is.





David
 

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