63
   

House of Reps. member Giffords shot in Arizona today

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 03:16 am
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:


Holders of public office shoud have better personal protection.
EVERYONE shoud have better personal protection, unless he is sufficiently well-armed and defended.



That's somehow funny if wasn't so serious ... and sad.
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  7  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 03:18 am
A nine year old girl who was brought to this store by her parents to talk to this woman and learn about how government works was shot and killed yesterday David.

Who should have been carrying the gun for protection?
The mother, the father, the child - all three?
Who should have been keeping watch for a madman with a gun? Should the father have stood guard and acted sentinel as the mother took the little girl to talk to the Congresswoman?

This is a tragedy - from all sides. First from the point of view of the innocent victims. This little girl is dead, as are five other people. Her parents took her to where she met her death, practicing exemplary parenting. And yet, she ended up dead.
This mentally ill man didn't get the help he needed yet was able to access a firearm.

I know you don't know how it feels to be free of worry about this sort of thing happening to you or your children on a day to day basis, because I never did until I moved here - where I don't have to worry about my children or my loved ones getting shot when they go to the school or to the mall or to Mc Donalds or to work.

And that peace of mind is worth more than a ******* right that I will never even use.

Tell me how you can talk about this specific 'right' while ignoring the fact that the human rights of these people were snatched from them while the right of the gunman was upheld?

It makes me sick to my stomach to think that this little girl's life and the lives of her parents and all the other vicitims of this mentally ill boy were snatched because he had access to a firearm.

Why don't we just lay their bodies at the altar of your cause - just some more collateral damage?

Maybe you should think about your reaction. I'm far enough away from it now that I can't read about it without crying.
I'm no longer desensitized to it. It's not just another day- another crazy-ass shooting over here.
I think you should reassess what exactly you are fighting for.
And that goes for Sarah Palin and the teabaggers too.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 05:35 am
@Lash,
The Huffington Post says that it is called a gunsight list. You'd want to take that up with those folks if you have a problem with it. By the way, Palin, probably because she got good political advice (i have never assumed she is this clever on her own) is able to exercise plausible deniability, because this is the work of a political action committee--she can deny that she is personally responsible. This is a case in which that deniability is very likely genuine--once again, i don't consider her clever enough to have thought up something like this on her own. I entertain a very low opinion of Miss Palin's intelligence.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 05:44 am
@dlowan,
The ostensibly lowest level of law enforcement is the municipality, the next level is the country (with a sheriff and sheriff's police), and then the state. There is no federal police, although there are federal agencies with police power--the FBI, the ATF (a branch of the Treasury Department, the acronym stands for Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms), the Secret Service (also a branch of Treasury, they are most famous for protecting the president, but they are also the service which polices counterfeiting and money fraud) and the U.S. Marshalls who are under the authority of the Attorney General.

In some cases, the municipality may actually have greater resources and more policing responsibility than the local sheriff. For example, i once lived in Columbus, Ohio. Although it is only the second largest metropolitan area in Ohio (after Cleveland), the city itself is the largest city in Ohio. The Columbus Police Department has far more money, men and resources than the Franklin County Sheriff's Office, whose role is largely restricted to partolling unincorporated areas of the county, providing security at the County Court House and other county facilities, and running the County Jail. It is likely that this shopping center was within Pima County, but not in the jurisdiction of the city of Tucson.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  3  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 06:47 am
I dont give Sarah Palin any amount of "Plausible deniability" on this. Whether she had the idea for her "Target list" or whether she did the graphics, or whether she merely looked at the final product and said
"YEH THIS IS WHAT I WANT"
She is associated with a public ad that shows and recommends violence on several political figures that dont agree with her worldview. She is at least partly to blame for this guys actions. We want to look at cponnections with violence on tv with antisocial acts by our kids. Heres an example where the hint wasnt hidden behind any symbolism, I submit that the hint to do harm to mS Giffords and others was blatant, right out there, and part of Sarah Palins message.
Palin "OWNS" everything that goes out under her name.

Now I agree that shes not bright enough for abstract thought, but thats another issue IMM.

H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 06:52 am
@firefly,
firefly wrote:

This interview with Gabrielle Giffords was originally aired on March 25th, 2010. In it, she comments on the heated political rhetoric, and outbursts of violence, and she specifically mentions Sarah Palin's "targeted list" which showed the hairs of a gunsight over Giffords congressional district.

Maybe this tragedy will help to tone down some of the violent imagery and rhetoric being used by the right wing to get crowds worked up into an anti-government frenzy.




Maybe the left is using the violent imagery and rhetoric of this tragedy to get the crowds worked up into an anti-gun, anti-second amendment frenzy.

The left has a saying:
"Never let a serious crisis go to waste. What I mean by that is it's an opportunity to do things you couldn't do before."

Maybe the cross hairs will be placed over ALL American gun owners.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 06:56 am
@H2O MAN,
The extreme gun nuts like DAve, will have nothing to say about Palins "hit list". Im liberal and am a gun owner but I deplore these "fringe actions" like publishing a hit list on public servants as a means of settleing disagreements. That is tantamount to the admonition the free speech stops at yeliing "Fire ina movie theater".

I think that there could possibly be a civil rights case brought against Srah Palins outfit that would at least get these stupid public figures who carry their 2nd amendment rights as a means to define theior policy of settling scores.
OmSigDAVID
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 07:01 am
@aidan,
It is very, very foolish to blame the tool
instead of the misanthropic mechanic.

If he had run over 100 people in the parking lot
with his car, instead, then u blame THE CAR, or Ford ??



aidan wrote:
A nine year old girl who was brought to this store by her parents to talk to this woman and learn about how government works was shot and killed yesterday David.

Who should have been carrying the gun for protection?
The mother, the father, the child - all three?
All 3, well armed and well trained and practiced; that 's what schools r for.
Thay shoud teach safety, including self-defense.






aidan wrote:
Who should have been keeping watch for a madman with a gun?
Its the same in principle as the SS defending the president.
Maybe now thay 'll do that.






aidan wrote:
Should the father have stood guard and acted sentinel
as the mother took the little girl to talk to the Congresswoman?
Yes; its good to be alert.





aidan wrote:
This is a tragedy - from all sides. First from the point of view of the innocent victims. This little girl is dead, as are five other people. Her parents took her to where she met her death, practicing exemplary parenting. And yet, she ended up dead.
The same happens in schools while playing baseball,
or falling in the bathtub at home.
Such is life.





aidan wrote:
This mentally ill man didn't get the help he needed yet was able to access a firearm.
OF COURSE. He coud have made one, if he wanted to, or bought one from anyone.
Rebecca, that 's like suggesting that he be prevented from having access to alcohol:
its IMPOSSIBLE to stop him, if that 's what he wants.

Dangerous criminals shoud be isolated from the decent people;
preferably not on the North American Continent.
(Maybe send them to England.)






aidan wrote:
I know you don't know how it feels to be free of worry
about this sort of thing happening to you
Since age 8, I have been free of worry,
but that did not stop someone from shooting at me
many years later and 1000s of miles away.
Here is what stopped him from shooting at me (real fast):
http://www.proguns.com/images/used-guns/usedguns247-904/278taurus445.jpg
I'm ineffably glad that I had this with me
on the nite in question.




aidan wrote:
or your children on a day to day basis, because I never did until I moved here - where I don't have to worry about my children or my loved ones getting shot when they go to the school or to the mall or to Mc Donalds or to work.
Your emotions are a matter of subjective choice.
With my guns, I know that I can defend myself,
or at least put up a decent fight.





aidan wrote:
And that peace of mind is worth more than a ******* right that I will never even use.
U can waive your own rights,
but u cannot relinquish MINE.
I got peace of mind when I got my first revolver for self-defense.







aidan wrote:
Tell me how you can talk about this specific 'right' while ignoring the fact that the human rights of these people were snatched from them while the right of the gunman was upheld?
It goes THIS way:
after the English were thrown out,
when government was created in America,
it was subject to the condition that government
had NO JURISDICTION over certain things
including self-defense from the predatory violence of man or beast.
Hence, government can only interfere in this right
by USURPATION of fraudulent authority.
(Some historians believe that the nazis burned down the Reichstag to incite emotions
into relinquishing personal rights to freedom; I reject doing that again now.)
Everyone has the Natural Right and the Constitutional Right to defend his life
and other property, whether government likes it or not, or whether any liberal likes it or not.







aidan wrote:
It makes me sick to my stomach to think that this little girl's life and the lives of her parents and all the other vicitims of this mentally ill boy were snatched because he had access to a firearm.
Woud it have been nicer if he had set off a bom?
Boms are even faster and easier to make than guns are.




aidan wrote:
Why don't we just lay their bodies at the altar
of your cause - just some more collateral damage?
because I don 't have an altar





aidan wrote:
Maybe you should think about your reaction.
OK




aidan wrote:
I'm far enough away from it now that I can't read about it without crying.
How much good does that do anyone ??




aidan wrote:
I'm no longer desensitized to it. It's not just another day- another crazy-ass shooting over here.

I think you should reassess what exactly you are fighting for.
OK, but for the most part, I think that Justice Scalia set it forth fairly well.
He recapitulated most of the applicable history
of the right to defend yourself.
Remember, Rebecca, it was never the job
of government to PREVENT crime from occurring,
but merely to avenge its victims.
(Note that when crime is too rampant,
e.g., race riots, the police commonly run away,
even as thay watch that crime on TV,
and everyone is ON HIS OWN; ask Reginald Denny to confirm that.
Ask Kitty Genovese. The same thing at Columbine: the police were cowards.)





aidan wrote:
And that goes for Sarah Palin and the teabaggers too.
In spirit, I am a Teabagger. Thay have my love and support.
ORIGINAL Americanism has my love and support.





David
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 07:01 am
@farmerman,
In spirit, i agree with you. No one will ever have a case in court against her PAC, though, in my opinion. Certainly, no one will ever have a case against the Alaska bimbo herself.
farmerman
 
  3  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 07:29 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Even a car has reasonable rules against impaired driving yet there still are accidents and tragedies caused by drunks and people incapable of handling a car.
Most states have rules for driving PRIVILEDGES

Cause too many accidents and you lose the PRIVILEDGES

When you are drunk or are too old to handle a vehicle your PRIVILEDGES are suspended or terminated.

In Pa , we have rules against certain mentally impaired people from driving. Also, several car makers are entertaining the additions of car ignition blocks that cause the car to lock if its being started by someone impaired .My own Ford Escape has an interlock in the robot key that prevents the car from being hot wored.

ANYWAY, a car is not designed to be primarily a weapon , accidents and tragedies occur by misoperation , not by its INTENDED operation like a gun.

ID like to see this be applied by reference to gun opwnership also. I dont lknow why David, keeps avoiding the issue of responsible or non impaired gun ownership. He just goes on an on about gun ownership being beyond the law.

I hope congress and the SUpreme Court ,sometime in the future get the balls to buck the gun lobby and sooner or later develop reasonable gun ownership criteria for citiziens. If that would be possible, the this guy, just like Cho at Va Tech, perhaps could have been avoided.

This guy Lauffer was obviously a nutcase, they were posting some of the disconnected gibberish that he had on his Facebook page.
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 07:30 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

The extreme gun nuts like DAve, will have nothing to say about Palins "hit list".


The extreme libs will not have anything to say about Joe Manchin (D) targeting and actually shooting his target... maybe Loughner was inspired by Manchin's TV spot.

I deplore these "fringe actions" that are attempting to make something out of nothing... Palin has nothing to do with yesterdays shootings.


0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 07:34 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

a car is not designed to be primarily a weapon , accidents and tragedies occur by misoperation , not by its INTENDED operation like a gun.


Many people have used cars as a killing weapons, most gun owners never aim at or shoot at anything but inanimate objects.

farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 07:37 am
@Setanta,
Many times cases, just like the famous one in Tennessee that tested the BUtler Act, are only brought to serve a purpose of righting some wrongs by judicial pressure. I suppose that a case may never be brought , but why not? The Brady Bill followed an initial damages case.
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 07:48 am
@farmerman,
Irrational knee jerk reactions by politicians is not going to help
America, it only gives government more power over Americans.
farmerman
 
  3  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 07:56 am
@H2O MAN,
Explain what you mean by "irrational knee jerk reactions". Do uou mean that using the court system to right any of these attacks on someones civil rights is irrational? Do you submit that , just because someone is in elected office that they somehow relinquish theor own rights as a citizen?

You must develop your "thought" a bit better spurt.
Rockhead
 
  3  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 08:32 am
so...

was this guy a "legal" gun owner?
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 08:32 am
@aidan,
aidan wrote:
A nine year old girl who was brought to this store by her parents to talk to this woman and learn about how government works was shot and killed yesterday


She was born on September 11, 2001 it seems too.
0 Replies
 
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 08:33 am
@Rockhead,
from what i've read, yes
Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 08:35 am
@djjd62,
hmmmmmmm....
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 08:39 am
According to NPR, the little girl was the granddaughter of Dallas Green, longtime manager of baseball's Philadelphia Phillies.
0 Replies
 
 

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