nimh
 
  9  
Mon 12 Sep, 2016 04:12 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Do you know that Trump cheats small business owners, or are you just sauying that?

Probably referring to the spate of stories about Trump not paying his bills, e.g.:


Hundreds allege Donald Trump doesn’t pay his bills

Donald Trump’s Business Plan Left a Trail of Unpaid Bills

From that first link:

Quote:
At least 60 lawsuits, along with hundreds of liens, judgments, and other government filings reviewed by the USA TODAY NETWORK, document people who have accused Trump and his businesses of failing to pay them for their work. Among them: a dishwasher in Florida. A glass company in New Jersey. A carpet company. A plumber. Painters. Forty-eight waiters. Dozens of bartenders and other hourly workers at his resorts and clubs, coast to coast. Real estate brokers who sold his properties. And, ironically, several law firms that once represented him in these suits and others.

Trump’s companies have also been cited for 24 violations of the Fair Labor Standards Act since 2005 for failing to pay overtime or minimum wage, according to U.S. Department of Labor data. That includes 21 citations against the defunct Trump Plaza in Atlantic City and three against the also out-of-business Trump Mortgage LLC in New York. Both cases were resolved by the companies agreeing to pay back wages.

In addition to the lawsuits, the review found more than 200 mechanic’s liens — filed by contractors and employees against Trump, his companies or his properties claiming they were owed money for their work — since the 1980s. The liens range from a $75,000 claim by a Plainview, N.Y., air conditioning and heating company to a $1 million claim from the president of a New York City real estate banking firm. On just one project, Trump’s Taj Mahal casino in Atlantic City, records released by the New Jersey Casino Control Commission in 1990 show that at least 253 subcontractors weren’t paid in full or on time, including workers who installed walls, chandeliers and plumbing.

The actions in total paint a portrait of Trump’s sprawling organization frequently failing to pay small businesses and individuals, then sometimes tying them up in court and other negotiations for years. In some cases, the Trump teams financially overpower and outlast much smaller opponents, draining their resources. Some just give up the fight, or settle for less; some have ended up in bankruptcy or out of business altogether.
snood
 
  6  
Mon 12 Sep, 2016 07:16 am
@nimh,
Why would anyone have trouble believing Donald Trump is a cheating huckster who has a history of beating small businesses out of money?
revelette2
 
  2  
Mon 12 Sep, 2016 08:00 am
I doubt the following words from Trump will get the same attention as Hillary's words of "basket of deplorable" and it is way worse.

Trump: If Hillary Clinton wins, U.S. will 'have a whole different church structure'

Quote:
On Friday, Donald Trump spoke at the Values Voter Summit in Washington, and afterward he talked briefly with the Christian Broadcasting Network's David Brody. Brody began by asking Trump if he agreed with former Rep. Michelle Bachmann (R-Minn.), a Trump backer who said last week that if Hillary Clinton wins in November, she will allow in unspecified outsiders and "this is the last election when we even have a chance to vote for somebody who will stand up for godly moral principles."

Trump said yes, "I think it’s going to be the last election that the Republicans can win." He continued:

If we don't win this election, you'll never see another Republican and you'll have a whole different church structure. You're going to have a whole different Supreme Court structure. That has to do a lot with what we're doing because the Supreme Court, as you know with Justice Scalia gone, I think you could probably have four to five judges picked by the next president. Probably a record number, David, probably a record number of judges. If they pick the super-liberals, probably to a certain extent, people that would make Bernie Sanders happy, you will never have a Supreme Court, we're going to end up with another Venezuela, large scale version. [Trump to CBN News]
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  6  
Mon 12 Sep, 2016 09:59 am
@edgarblythe,
Hi Edgar,

Quote:
I haven't had a conversation with a single solitary Hillary supporter that is willing or able to discuss the reasons why she isn't crushing Trump. Her flaws, mind you, not his and not those of his base.


I'm a supporter of hers, and I'm more than happy to discuss this. However, this isn't to say that I buy into the purity-progressive, Bernie-or-Bust bullshit in the slightest. As an example:

Quote:
For Clinton to fixate on Trump’s endless flaws suggests that her own platform has little substance.


This is ridiculous and unsupportable. Her platform is EXTREMELY substantive and goes in-depth on a wide variety of issues. It simply isn't some progressive wet-dream and so you guys criticize endlessly.

The last bit about Jill Stein is all I needed to read to discount everything that was written here, as anyone who takes that clown seriously deserves what they get.

Cycloptichorn
Below viewing threshold (view)
revelette2
 
  2  
Mon 12 Sep, 2016 10:23 am
@AC14747,
It was perhaps stupid but understandable why she would not be forthcoming with the doctors diagnoses given how the media and Trumpers pounce if she sneezes. As for it not being the truth, her doctor put out a statement to the effect of it be pneumonia.
Cycloptichorn
 
  6  
Mon 12 Sep, 2016 10:31 am
@AC14747,
AC14747 wrote:

As a Hillary supporter I have a question for ya. It's clear that Hillary has a problem with telling the truth as evidenced by the fact that she couldn't be honest with the public Friday that she had pneumonia, which I'm sure you will agree that the public has a right to know in as much as we are considering her for the office of president, if in fact it's really pneumonia and not something more serious because if she's lying about one thing how can we tell if she's telling the truth at any given point.


You can't, but that's no different than anyone else. All of our presidents, throughout my lifetime, have been shameless liars when necessary.

In re: her Pnuemonia, I think that it's entirely fair to say that she didn't want to discuss being ill as it opens up stupid arguments that she's not fit to hold office, which she doesn't want to deal with. I don't think you can really call that a lie unless she was asked 'are you seriously ill' and she said 'nope,' which to the best of my knowledge hasn't happended.

Quote:
So my question is how can you justify supporting someone who lies to the public on something small knowing that the possibility of her lying to you on the big issues is distinct. And if you justify her lies by supporting her what does it say about you?


There's ALWAYS a large possibility that you're being lied to, at all times, by everyone. Always. That being said I haven't seen anything she's done or lied about that I find particularly concerning and I still think she's by far the best person for the job. I'm not voting for a Purity Warrior or some White Knight to be president, I'm voting for someone to do a good job running the exec branch, which I think she'd do.

As to what that 'says about me,' I can safely say that I'm not concerned in the slightest with what you or others believe on that particular matter.

Cycloptichorn
revelette2
 
  3  
Mon 12 Sep, 2016 10:34 am
Trump says debate will be 'very unfair,' calls for no moderator

georgeob1
 
  -1  
Mon 12 Sep, 2016 10:51 am
@revelette2,
An interesting idea. Normally debates are limited by moderators, but not controlled bt them through questions they create and specify. Each debate participant states his case ( for in this cane being =selected as President) and each has an opportunity to rebut the case of his/her opponent.

I doubt the media will like that because they like to put themselves at center stage. However, the real subject here is the interests of the people in selecting their president.
Cycloptichorn
 
  5  
Mon 12 Sep, 2016 10:57 am
@georgeob1,
Let's be honest here, Trump wants no moderators at the debate because he feels less than confident about winning a traditional debate, in which his ability to rely on bombast, misdirection and outright lies in order to cover up his vast lack of knowledge on policy issues will be severely curtailed. He also wants to be able to simply talk over Hillary and dismiss her both verbally and with his body language, something that will be far more difficult for him to do in a traditional debate.

Good news for all though is that the debate commission doesn't give two shits about his requests and they will go forward with a moderator as usual.

Cycloptichorn
ehBeth
 
  3  
Mon 12 Sep, 2016 11:00 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
All of our presidents, throughout my lifetime, have been shameless liars when necessary.


I suspect they all do/have

I was recently re-reading this

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2007/01/untruth-and-consequences/305561/

Quote:
In 1944, Harry Truman was asked by his friend and Senate colleague Owen Brewster what Franklin Roosevelt was really like. Truman hadn’t gotten to know his running mate very well, but the Democratic vice-presidential nominee had spent enough time around FDR to provide a succinct answer.

“He lies,” Truman replied.



Quote:
Presidential candidates, even those with reputations for evasiveness, reacted to the growing focus on honesty the way you might expect: they accused their opponents of lying, while promising not to lie themselves. Richard Nixon had been elected president in 1968 after positioning himself as the peace candidate. As the phrase credibility gap gained currency in the context of Johnson’s lies about the Vietnam War, the incoming White House communications director, Herbert Klein, vowed, “Truth will become the hallmark of the Nixon administration.” But by the time Nixon left the White House,a new catchphrase had entered the lexicon: What did the president know, and when did he know it?




Quote:
Such campaign exaggerations aside, Carter’s commitment to truth telling did not wear well. “Humankind cannot bear very much reality,” wrote T. S. Eliot, and after four years of Carter, the American electorate was no exception. Carter’s revelatory form of communication (admitting to Playboy that he “looked on a lot of women with lust,” for example, or bemoaning a national “crisis of confidence”) was a poor substitute in voters’ minds for executive-branch competence, or for leadership that could make Americans feel good about themselves. As Western Illinois University history professor George Hopkins sees it, all presidents lie for the simple reason that if they didn’t, we wouldn’t elect them. “So the problem is not them, it’s us,” Hopkins told me recently. “We should look in the mirror.”



longish, interesting read
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  -2  
Mon 12 Sep, 2016 11:24 am
@Cycloptichorn,
You have no way of knowing or establishing the truth (or lack of it) in what you wrote. Merely words.
Cycloptichorn
 
  4  
Mon 12 Sep, 2016 11:36 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

You have no way of knowing or establishing the truth (or lack of it) in what you wrote. Merely words.


Observable evidence doesn't count? I've watched, literally, every debate Trump and Clinton have been a part of. What more, I judged debate for years at the HS and College level, so I think that I have a pretty good idea of the technical skills and tactics needed to win a debate. I stand by what I wrote.

Cycloptichorn
High Strangeness
 
  -2  
Mon 12 Sep, 2016 11:45 am
Good for Trump, not wanting moderators at debates trying to tell him what he can or can't say..Smile
I've walked out of two forums in the last month (an atheist one and a "christian" one) because the control-freak mods kept deleting my posts and closing my threads..Wink
Cycloptichorn
 
  5  
Mon 12 Sep, 2016 11:48 am
@High Strangeness,
That's not what moderators do. Have you watched a Prez debate before?

Cycloptichorn
georgeob1
 
  -2  
Mon 12 Sep, 2016 11:56 am
@Cycloptichorn,
You don't know Trump's thoughts and motives (or those of anyone else) no matter what you watch on TV.
Cycloptichorn
 
  5  
Mon 12 Sep, 2016 11:59 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

You don't know Trump's thoughts and motives (or those of anyone else) no matter what you watch on TV.


Odd then that you would simultaneously hold this position, while also preferring Trump's total lack of detailed plans on any issue to Hillary's actually detailed plans on many issues, because of Trump's 'character' or something like that, isn't it? I can't remember your exact wording from the other day. How do you square your confidence in Trump with your admission that you don't know the first thing about his 'thoughts and motives?'

I think it's fair to say that Trump isn't a good debater and he's smart enough to know it. Also, when people start complaining about the outcome of an event in advance, it's typically a sign that they believe they will lose - wouldn't you agree?

Cycloptichorn
AC14747
 
  -4  
Mon 12 Sep, 2016 12:03 pm
@revelette2,
So what you're saying is that Hillary can't take the heat so she should stay out of the kitchen?
And I'm almost positive that her doctor issuef a statement saying that the cough she had was due to allergies when in fact it's obvious now that it's pneumonia of course we'll never know for sure what it is because if the doctor's going to lie about her diagnosis and Hillary won't tell us I guess we can't believe anything they say for all we know it could be stage 4 terminal cancer.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  -2  
Mon 12 Sep, 2016 12:07 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I don't puch much store in the "plans" put forward by Presidential candidates. Most are half-baked, some deceptive, and at the end it is Congress that writes the laws enacting such plans. I find my perceptions of the characters and expressed beliefs and priorities of the candidates a more reliable indicator of what they might do in office. Even that is risky. Consider Obama the campaigner vs Obama the President.

In Hillary's case her pandering and chronic deceptions make any "plan" from her very highly suspect in any event.

There's nothing inconsistent in my views about these things..
0 Replies
 
High Strangeness
 
  -2  
Mon 12 Sep, 2016 12:08 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
said- "That's not what moderators do. Have you watched a Prez debate before?"
------------------------------------------------------

Yes, the mods job is to keep stepping in like boxing referees instead of minding their own business..Smile
0 Replies
 
 

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