izzythepush
 
  3  
Sun 20 Mar, 2016 08:12 pm
@onevoice,
You see the right to discriminate against one section of the community as a freedom worth fighting for. It sounds to me as if you don't want the gay community to have the same rights as you. How would you feel if tradespeople started discriminating against you just because of who you are?
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BillRM
 
  3  
Sun 20 Mar, 2016 08:30 pm
@onevoice,
Sorry when you are holding yourself out to the public as a business you do not have a right to pick and choose those you provide service to due to your religion beliefs.

Either be willing to serve anyone that come though your door or close down your business.
BillRM
 
  2  
Sun 20 Mar, 2016 08:32 pm
@onevoice,
Quote:
I have just as much of right to choose not to bake a cake for a gay couple due to my beliefs as they do to not attend a church service due to their beliefs


You have a right not to be in that business and bake no cakes or serve everyone who wish to have a cake bake.
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onevoice
 
  -4  
Sun 20 Mar, 2016 09:01 pm
@BillRM,
Your perspective is interesting Bill. So then you are saying that by owning a business I have to give up my personal rights?
BillRM
 
  2  
Sun 20 Mar, 2016 09:03 pm
@onevoice,
Sorry but I can not see a couple looking for a wedding cake to be thinking about the possible religion beliefs of the baker.

If you open the door to bakers being able to bring their faith into who they will serve then you open it for thousands of other businesses.

Let see trying to get a cab from the airport you find that the Muslims drivers will not let you into their cab due to your bottle of wine that you had picked up from the duty free shop.
BillRM
 
  1  
Sun 20 Mar, 2016 09:12 pm
@onevoice,
Quote:
by owning a business I have to give up my personal rights?


All business are license and operated under the laws of the society and to gain that license you need to agree to follow the rules and conditions for that business.

So if you can not follow the rules for your business then get into another business.

When a mixed race married couple could no longer be turn away from a hotel I am sure that not a few hotel owners felt that their personal rights was being taken away from them.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  5  
Sun 20 Mar, 2016 09:25 pm
@onevoice,
onevoice wrote:
I'm not going to bring my "church" to their doorstep..


and the place to practice your religion? church seems to be the best place for that

run a business in public - expect to be expected to uphold public laws and standards
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BillRM
 
  2  
Sun 20 Mar, 2016 09:47 pm
@onevoice,
Quote:
Oh and in the case of your example... I would smile, say thank you anyway have a nice day, and hail another cab. That's called being a mature adult.


Sorry but the example I gave with the cabs is a real life example at an airport and people was having a real problem as the majority of the cab drivers was Muslims at that airport.

An like the bakers they should have a choice that seem very fair take the customers with the bottles or find another job.

Quote:


http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=2827800&page=1



Commissioners at one of the country's biggest airports are considering punishing Muslim cab drivers who refuse service to passengers possessing alcohol or guide dogs.

The cabbies claim transporting those items violates Islamic law.

"It is against our faith and the airport is discriminating against Muslim drivers," says a cab driver who would only give his first name, Hashim.

Three-quarters of the 900 cabbies licensed to operate at the airport are Muslim, most from Somalia. It is unclear how many are adhering to this letter of Islamic law which considers the purchase, drinking and transport of alcoholic beverages a sin.

Islam also regards the saliva from dogs to be unclean.

Nearly 40 million people travel through Minneapolis-St Paul airport annually.

Over the past 5 years, airport officials say 5,400 passengers have been turned away.

Some had guide dogs or pets, others were carrying cases of wine from California, or liquor from duty-free shops.

"There are times where cab after cab will refuse service, and passengers can be waiting for 20 minutes," says Patrick Hogan, spokesman for the Metropolitan Airports Commission. "We've had complaints of people being asked if they had any alcoholic beverages in their luggage."

Hogan admits the instances have declined in recent months with the Department of Homeland Security's restrictions on transporting liquids.

"We were seeing an average of 77 refusals a month," he says, "Now we're seeing between 8 and 20."

The state agency that licenses cab drivers prohibits discrimination against passengers unless the driver feels his life is in danger.

"This is a public access issue," says Chuck Samuelson, of the American Civil Liberties Union of Minnesota, "Bottom line is we are a secular society, and that's the way it is."

Minnesota's Muslim American Society had offered a compromise measure last year to color code cabs that would not transport alcohol, but the airport commission turned the proposal down.

Currently, cabs that refuse a fare must simply go to the back of the line.

But, under the new proposal, drivers who decline to provide service would face a 30-day suspension of their license. Second offenders would have their licenses revoked.

"This type of job helps immigrants move to the next level," says Hassan Mouhamud, Imam of the AlTaqwa Mosque in St. Paul, and a scholar of Islamic Law.

"Blocking that," he says, "can cost jobs, it can also cost immigrants and their families the American dream."

Mouhamud says there are schools of Islamic thought that allow for compromise.

He says under the Hanafi School of Islamic law, if Muslims live in a country that does not enforce their religious law, they can defer to the written laws of that country.

"American society has a rule of respecting religions," says Mouhamed. " We hope there is room to accommodate all faiths."

"It's not a case of good guys versus bad guys," says airport commission spokesman Patrick Hogan," It's simply individuals who want to do right by their religion, and an airport that wants to do right by its customers."



Quote:
ST. PAUL, Minnesota (AP) — Muslim cab drivers whose religious beliefs go against driving passengers who carry alcohol have lost another round in court.
The Minnesota Court of Appeals ruled Tuesday against the cab drivers' attempt to block penalties for refusing service.

An ordinance adopted by the Metropolitan Airports Commission last year revokes a cab driver's license for 30 days for refusing a fare at the Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport. A second refusal brings a two-year revocation.

A large share of the cabbies who serve the airport are Somali Muslims, and many of them believe that Islamic law prohibits them from giving rides to people carrying alcohol. Since the commission began keeping track in 2002, there have been over 5,200 recorded instances of cabbies refusing service to passengers at the airport, including a "significant percentage" of passengers carrying alcohol, which is sometimes visible through bags or in wine boxes, the appeals court noted.

The issue had simmered for several years before the commission decided the penalties were needed to ensure that customers would get reliable taxi service at the airport, and that compromises proposed by the drivers were impractical.

The drivers, who say the airport rules infringe on their religious freedom, appealed a lower court's refusal to grant a temporary injunction blocking those penalties from taking effect.

Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
Mixx
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glitterbag
 
  8  
Sun 20 Mar, 2016 10:18 pm
@onevoice,
Actually Bill lives in the same USA that I do and in my USA all citizens can buy food from grocery stores, they can dine in restaurants, they can buy tickets to see movies and they can actually see doctors when they need medical attention. And here the kicker, I will not be interrogated by anyone to see if I am moral enough, religious enough, white enough or Christian enough for the business to be assuaged they will not violate their view of Christianity and risk damnation by baking me a frigging cake, or giving me a flu shot.

You want others to revere Christianity, ok I understand, try behaving like a real Christian and not a score keeper.


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BillRM
 
  1  
Sun 20 Mar, 2016 11:25 pm
@onevoice,
When I was growing up it was blacks who was demanding to be treated with respect as full citizens of the US and there was a large number of people who did not view them as such and in many cases base their rejection of blacks on their religion faith.

Bombs was set off in churches killing children by people who strangely view themselves as Christian.

It took the federal government decades and using force up to federal troops with fixed bayonets to deal with these people who faith was telling them not to accept blacks as fully human and fully citizens of the US.

Sorry blacks are full citizens and it you now refused to bake them a cake no matter your faith you will be punish and it the same for gays couples as it should be.

Your deeply held religion faith does not give you the right to not do business with blacks or gays and if you can not bring yourself to that point then do not have a business serving the public.
onevoice
 
  -2  
Mon 21 Mar, 2016 01:20 am
@BillRM,
Cant sleep... Man this is a little bit like torture knowing I have to be up and rearing to go in a few hours... Lol Well anyway, when I was growing up my step dad was so prejudice towards blacks I wasn't even allowed to watch the Cosby show. It took me a long time to get over that enough to think for myself. But once I realized that I was only thinking what I was taught, I decided to change my thinking, because what I had been taught was wrong.

However, what's the point? I didn't bring that into this conversation. And be assured... It is not another rabbit trail I'm going down with you to run some more circles on. No Thank you. You know... All of what you said combined with some of the other things that have been said about and to me, really shows just how little any of you really even know about me.

My God... Talk about prejudice. I just SAY the word Christian and suddenly I'm a gay bashing, black hating son of a gun, who I am presuming needs to be hung, based on some of the comments. Yet I have approached nothing I've said in a hateful or disrespectful manor. And what kills me the most... Is the ones who are accusing me of this are probably a 100 times more prejudice towards Christians than I have been towards anything in my life.

And the icing on the cake? I am not like other Christians... ON PURPOSE. Do you really think I haven't seen the heinus things people do in the name of God? Do you think that doesn't piss me off too? I didn't do those things. So why am I getting blamed for it? Yet no one seems to see that. All they see is someone who talks about God, and doesn't like things we do sometimes, so therefore she must be a hater. That is prejudice in it's rawest form. So, go ahead... Keep on pointing that finger at me... But remember... There's three more pointing back at you.

However, regarding your final statement... I don't know what the laws state regarding the business side of it, and until I do I will plead the fifth. Oh wait... I do still have THAT right don't I? Or am I obligated to reply because I'm such a gay bashing, black hating Christian in your opinion? Lol

In all seriousness though, if the law states that, then indeed I will not be starting a bakery or any other business that would cause me to to be forced to compromise what I believe. Why should I? No one's forcing them to compromise their beliefs for mine. As a matter a fact the tables have turned completely and now they're the one's trying to shove their beliefs down my throat, and I never even did it to them in the first place.


0 Replies
 
onevoice
 
  -1  
Mon 21 Mar, 2016 01:47 am
@BillRM,
Please do us all a favor and don't talk about "equal rights" when you don't even really support them yourself.
izzythepush
 
  4  
Mon 21 Mar, 2016 03:53 am
@onevoice,
It\'s not often I find myself in agreement with BillRM. You are bringing your prejudices to other people\'s doors when you decide to discriminate against them. If you don\'t want to deal with the general public don\'t open a shop.

Walter was right when he said you want to freeze things in time. You want the right to discriminate based on sexual orientation. What next, race, religion, hair colour, length of skirt? How about the right to conduct witch trials?

Not everybody believes the same as you, those people should not be treated as second class citizens because of your religious beliefs.

The only words I\'m basing my decision on are those coming out of your mouth. You talk about taking away someone\'s rights as if it\'s a freedom, it\'s not. You\'re not talking freedom but discrimination, that\'s the opposite.

Btw, there is a glitch that includes a backslash every time I use an apostrophe. I can\'t edit it out. I have tried.
Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 21 Mar, 2016 04:34 am
The law in this secular democracy requires equal access in public accommodation. If you open a business providing goods or services to any members of the public, you are providing public accommodation, and you must provide those goods or services to all members of the public. It\\\'s really not that hard to understand--religious bigotry is not an acceptable basis upon which to deny public accommodation.
 

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