okie
 
  2  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2011 06:54 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Please list for us all those "monumental disasters?"

1. - Record unemployment and a lousy economy, partly because he is evidently not pro free market president. The last part of that statement stating why unemployment remains high is my opinion, but it is a common opinion throughout the country. Many friends and acquaintances feel the same way. The citizens of this country still do not know who or what Obama actually believes. Do you, imposter?
2. - Poor leadership in general and on several issues, such as foreign policy, energy policy, tax policy, border security, national security, the wars, etc.
3. - A bad health care law that about 60% of likely voters want repealed
4. - Terrible appointments to his administration

There are more, but thats at least 4.
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2011 06:57 pm
@okie,
"Record" unemployment? Since when? It's been higher in the past. We usually don't refer to numbers which aren't the highest as 'records.'

This one is a joke as well:

Quote:
3. - A bad health care law that about 60% of likely voters want repealed


Forget likely voters, why don't you tell us what percentage of ACTUAL voters wanted it repealed - per exit polling on election day? I dare ya.

Cycloptichorn
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2011 07:02 pm
@okie,
You are so funny. Everything turned to shite the moment Obama got in. Yeah. Right. Bush started the first of the bailouts and they were a direct consequence of his abysmal handling of financial management in the previous eight years.

And Obama's badly managed wars that Bush started on false premises with no end game in sight? Your partisanship blinds you and makes others dismiss the few times you might actually have a point.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2011 07:03 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I don't know (or care much about) either set of poll numbers, but assume each of you has chosen something favorable to his point. However polls of actual voters on Nov. 7 2010 are apt to count for less in the minds of legislators than their own estimates of what likely voters now or in 18 months will prefer.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2011 07:05 pm
@cicerone imposter,
georgeob, Here's the latest "contribution" from okie. Let's see if you are honest enough to prove all his statements either 1) are misleading, 2) are outright lies, or 3) he doesn't have a clue?
If you don't, I will reply with my evidence or facts to refute each one of his claims.

cicerone imposter wrote:
Quote:
Please list for us all those "monumental disasters?"


okie wrote:
Quote:
1. - Record unemployment and a lousy economy, partly because he is evidently not pro free market president. The last part of that statement stating why unemployment remains high is my opinion, but it is a common opinion throughout the country. Many friends and acquaintances feel the same way.
ME: This statement belongs on the laffer curve: as if his many friends and acquaintances make up the US general population.

The citizens of this country still do not know who or what Obama actually believes. Do you, imposter?
2. - Poor leadership in general and on several issues, such as foreign policy, energy policy, tax policy, border security, national security, the wars, etc.
3. - A bad health care law that about 60% of likely voters want repealed
4. - Terrible appointments to his administration


georgeob, How much time do you need to respond?
okie
 
  2  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2011 07:09 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter, I hate to do this, but you deserve to have it pointed out. You routinely call conservatives dummies and ignorant, but you have yet to figure out how to quote people with the quote boxes, etc. on this forum. For example in your above post, it is not immediately obvious at first glance that you inserted your own words into your quote of me. How long have you been on this forum? And you haven't yet figured out something that simple. It looks to me like if you were so smart, you could at least do that?
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2011 07:20 pm
@okie,
Seemed obvious to me. Even if you were colourblind. Distraction tactic?
okie
 
  2  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2011 07:24 pm
@hingehead,
A little biased there, are you, hingehead? Color does not imply the quote is from somebody else. In fact, I could have posted something in different colors, which would show up that way in a quote box. Besides, how difficult is it to actually learn how to quote somebody on this forum? Is it too much for imposter to learn?
georgeob1
 
  3  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2011 07:30 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

georgeob, Here's the latest "contribution" from okie. Let's see if you are honest enough to prove all his statements either 1) are misleading, 2) are outright lies, or 3) he doesn't have a clue?
If you don't, I will reply with my evidence or facts to refute each one of his claims.
..
georgeob, How much time do you need to respond?
I don't need to respond at all. The fact is that all of these assertions, and counterassertions, are matters of opinion (his and yours), not amenable to proof at all. People who interpret events differently than you are not necessarily stupid. Your interpretations of still unfolding events are not necessarily correct. The world is a complex place and the truth is usually hard to find.

I'll agree that okie often omits relevant facts and occasionally leaves large gaps in arguments he puts forward. However, you (and I) do these things too, perhaps less often, but we do it too.

I simply do not believe you can justify your name-calling here. You aren't alone in it, but for me it is the most disagreeable thing about A2K. I think you know better as well.
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2011 07:36 pm
@okie,
No, I don't think I was being biased, I have been on the opposite sides of debates with CI. It's in a different colour and it says ME:

And he has used the quote function, he just inserted his own (clearly marked) text inside a quote - not the first person to do that by a long shot.

To have a dig at someone for that smacks of distraction to me, to assert a corollary between ability to use functions in an online community and the validity of that person's argument is lazy and disingenuous. IMO.

0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2011 07:43 pm
@georgeob1,
Okay, I've done my "research" and will post it now on okie's previous post that he intentionally lied or hasn't a clue about:

okie:
Quote:
1- Record unemployment and a lousy economy, partly because he is evidently not pro free market president. The last part of that statement stating why unemployment remains high is my opinion, but it is a common opinion throughout the country. Many friends and acquaintances feel the same way.


FACT: The GW Bush tax cuts that promised job creation never happened. The economy of our country and the world imploded, and many lost their jobs and homes when the Great Recession started in December 2007. BTW, that's when GW Bush has been in office for seven years. To expect Obama to solve all the problems created by GW Bush during his eight years in office in two years is not only unrealistic, but out of touch with reality.


okie:
Quote:
The citizens of this country still do not know who or what Obama actually believes. Do you, imposter?

FACT: If you had bothered to look for what Obama accomplished, you would have the answer. [/b]

okie:
Quote:
2- Poor leadership in general and on several issues, such as foreign policy, energy policy, tax policy, border security, national security, the wars, etc.



FACT: The GOP was hell bent to make sure Obama's leadership was handicapped from the time he took over the white house. The fact that the media called the GOP the "No Party" didn't happen by imagination; it's fact. All one needs to do is look at all the filibuster actions the GOP took on most legislation presented in congress. It's a record high for any congress.


FACT: Obama accomplished the following during his first two years in office: You are welcome to challenge any one of them.
NOTE: I have deleted some that I believe are not material to prove the point.
I will provide the link for anyone interested; just ask.

1. Ordered all federal agencies to undertake a study and make recommendations for ways to cut spending
2. Ordered a review of all federal operations to identify and cut wasteful spending and practices
3. Instituted enforcement for equal pay for women
4. Beginning the withdrawal of US troops from Iraq
5. Families of fallen soldiers have expenses covered to be on hand when the body arrives at Dover AFB
6. Ended media blackout on war casualties; reporting full information
7. Ended media blackout on covering the return of fallen soldiers to Dover AFB; the media is now permitted to do so pending adherence to respectful rules and approval of fallen soldier’s family
8. The White House and federal government are respecting the Freedom of Information Act
9. Instructed all federal agencies to promote openness and transparency as much as possible
10. Limits on lobbyist’s access to the White House
11. Limits on White House aides working for lobbyists after their tenure in the administration
12. Ended the previous stop-loss policy that kept soldiers in Iraq/Afghanistan longer than their enlistment date
13. Phasing out the expensive F-22 war plane and other outdated weapons systems, which weren’t even used or needed in Iraq/Afghanistan
14. Removed restrictions on embryonic stem-cell research
15. Federal support for stem-cell and new biomedical research
16. New federal funding for science and research labs
17. States are permitted to enact federal fuel efficiency standards above federal standards
18. Increased infrastructure spending (roads, bridges, power plants) after years of neglect
19. Funds for high-speed, broadband Internet access to K-12 schools
20. New funds for school construction
21. The prison at Guantanamo Bay is being phased out
22. US Auto industry rescue plan
23. Housing rescue plan
24. $789 billion economic stimulus plan
25. The public can meet with federal housing insurers to refinance (the new plan can be completed in one day) a mortgage if they are having trouble paying
26. US financial and banking rescue plan
27. The secret detention facilities in Eastern Europe and elsewhere are being closed
28. Ended the previous policy; the US now has a no torture policy and is in compliance with the Geneva Convention standards
29. Better body armor is now being provided to our troops
30. The missile defense program is being cut by $1.4 billion in 2010
31. Restarted the nuclear nonproliferation talks and building back up the nuclear inspection infrastructure/protocols
32. Reengaged in the treaties/agreements to protect the Antarctic
33. Reengaged in the agreements/talks on global warming and greenhouse gas emissions
34. Visited more countries and met with more world leaders than any president in his first six months in office
35. Successful release of US captain held by Somali pirates; authorized the SEALS to do their job
36. US Navy increasing patrols off Somali coast
37. Attractive tax write-offs for those who buy hybrid automobiles
38. Cash for clunkers program offers vouchers to trade in fuel inefficient, polluting old cars for new cars; stimulated auto sales
39. Announced plans to purchase fuel efficient American-made fleet for the federal government
40. Expanded the SCHIP program to cover health care for 4 million more children
41. Signed national service legislation; expanded national youth service program
42. Instituted a new policy on Cuba , allowing Cuban families to return home to visit loved ones
43. Ended the previous policy of not regulating and labeling carbon dioxide emissions
44. Expanding vaccination programs
45. Immediate and efficient response to the floods in North Dakota and other natural disasters
46. Closed offshore tax safe havens
47. Negotiated deal with Swiss banks to permit US government to gain access to records of tax evaders and criminals
48. Ended the previous policy of offering tax benefits to corporations who outsource American jobs; the new policy is to promote in-sourcing to bring jobs back
49.. Ended the previous practice of protecting credit card companies; in place of it are new consumer protections from credit card industry’s predatory practices
50. Energy producing plants must begin preparing to produce 15% of their energy from renewable sources
51. Lower drug costs for seniors
52. Ended the previous practice of forbidding Medicare from negotiating with drug manufacturers for cheaper drugs; the federal government is now realizing hundreds of millions in savings
53. Increasing pay and benefits for military personnel
54. Improved housing for military personnel
55. Initiating a new policy to promote federal hiring of military spouses
56. Improved conditions at Walter Reed Military Hospital and other military hospitals
57. Increasing student loans
58. Increasing opportunities in AmeriCorps program
59. Sent envoys to Middle East and other parts of the world that had been neglected for years; reengaging in multilateral and bilateral talks and diplomacy
60. Established a new cyber security office
61. Beginning the process of reforming and restructuring the military 20 years after the Cold War to a more modern fighting force; this includes new procurement policies, increasing size of military, new technology and cyber units and operations, etc.
62. Ended previous policy of awarding no-bid defense contracts
63. Ordered a review of hurricane and natural disaster preparedness
64. Established a National Performance Officer charged with saving the federal government money and making federal operations more efficient
65. Students struggling to make college loan payments can have their loans refinanced
66. Improving benefits for veterans
67. Many more press conferences and town halls and much more media access than previous administration
68. Instituted a new focus on mortgage fraud
69. The FDA is now regulating tobacco
70. Ended previous policy of cutting the FDA and circumventing FDA rules
71. Ended previous practice of having White House aides rewrite scientific and environmental rules, regulations, and reports
72. Authorized discussions with North Korea and private mission by Pres. Bill Clinton to secure the release of two Americans held in prisons
73. Authorized discussions with Myanmar and mission by Sen. Jim Web to secure the release of an American held captive
74. Making more loans available to small businesses
75. Established independent commission to make recommendations on slowing the costs of Medicare
76. Appointment of first Latina to the Supreme Court
77. Authorized construction/opening of additional health centers to care for veterans
78. Limited salaries of senior White House aides; cut to $100,000
79. Renewed loan guarantees for Israel
80. Changed the failing/status quo military command in Afghanistan
81. Deployed additional troops to Afghanistan
82. New Afghan War policy that limits aerial bombing and prioritizes aid, development of infrastructure, diplomacy, and good government practices by Afghans
83. Announced the long-term development of a national energy grid with renewable sources and cleaner, efficient energy production


I don't agree with all of them, but the fact of the matter is that Obama accomplished most of his campaign promises. That should be enough for most Americans who voted for him, but they have been fed so many mis-information by the GOP that most Americans believe their taxes were increased by Obama, and that the new health care bill had a provision for death panels.


okie:
Quote:
3. - A bad health care law that about 60% of likely voters want repealed

FACT: The new members of the House may want to repeal ObamaCare, but the fact is that the Senate and President Obama will never approve its repeal. Most of the repeal cry came about, because of the misinformation spread by the GOP on death panels and government take-over of health care. They are both outright lies.

I have personally criticized the health plan before it was approved by the last congress, because it didn't spell out the many ways to save cost, increase efficiency, and determine its true long-term cost. Obama's “it won't cost a dime more” was also a lie that cannot be supported. Adding more than 41 million more patients to a system that's already busting at the seams is going to cost billions more in cost.


okie:
Quote:
4. - Terrible appointments to his administration

FACT: okie has never provided what he meant by “terrible appointments” except to identify them as Marxists. When asked to show how Obama has presented any initiative that is Marxist, he never answered that question. What of the above 83 listed accomplishements of Obama's during his first two years can be identified as Marxist? Anyone?
okie
 
  2  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2011 08:07 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
I'll agree that okie often omits relevant facts and occasionally leaves large gaps in arguments he puts forward. However, you (and I) do these things too, perhaps less often, but we do it too.
All of us here should admit that our posts on political forums are largely opinion, based upon our personal understanding of what is good and what the politicians have done in regard to what we think is the right way to go. Imposter regularly posts his opinion, rarely with any facts or even evidence from a link or something.

Of the points I posted about Obama, I think the unemployment is an undeniable fact of his presidency so far, and so is the generally poor economy. I admit to the fact that it is my opinion that Obama is not fully on board with free market policies, but surely most people astute in at least a beginning knowledge of Obama's record, along with his history and his appointments, would have to agree that my opinion is not at all unusual or unreasonable.

Regarding his poor leadership, even liberals are complaining that he has not taken the opportunity to do more, and we already know how we conservatives feel, so that is certainly a logical assertion on my part. And in regard to his health care legislation, it is a fact that close to 60% of likely voters want it repealed. If personal rights still mean anything in this country, I would think that 60% of voters should indicate how we feel as a country in regard to some of our most personal rights, which involve our own health care. I would call our own health very personal.

I mentioned his appointments. I can back that up. If imposter wants to argue that a guy that cheated on his tax return is a good appointment to head the Treasury, I frankly do not know how to argue with such nonsensical thinking, George. Additionally, it is documented fact that Obama has either attempted or he has appointed several people with Marxist beliefs and sympathies. If imposter thinks Marxists make good bureaucrats or appointees in an administration, I'm sorry, I cannot agree with such nonsensical thinking not yet seen in this country's history. I think the country can do better than that, and so can a president.

If any of this debate tells us anything, it should tell us that the American population is extremely uninformed or woefully ignorant of what the principles of this country is and should be.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  2  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2011 08:23 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
okie:
Quote:
4. - Terrible appointments to his administration

FACT: okie has never provided what he meant by “terrible appointments” except to identify them as Marxists. When asked to show how Obama has presented any initiative that is Marxist, he never answered that question. What of the above 83 listed accomplishements of Obama's during his first two years can be identified as Marxist? Anyone?
This deserves an answer. Just because those appointees or Obama havenot yet accomplished any purely Marxist initiative, perhaps, that does not at all mean that appointing such people are healthy for the country. If a president appointed a few people that believed in euthanasia, do you think they would have been successful by now in instituting any of their policy? Doubtful, imposter. There is such a thing as public opinion, Congress, and political inertia in regard to accomplishing policies. Most political policies are accomplished over a longer period of time, using incrementalism to do it. So just because a few Marxist thinkers in the administration have not yet been able to bring about great change, that does not at all convince me that appointing them was good. That seems a little like we didn't die from a tiny bit of cyanide, so lets pour more into the mix. Not logical, imposter, and I am not about to argue that a little bit of cyanide was okay, so that appointing Marxists are okay too.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  3  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2011 08:29 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Nearly all of your "facts" are opinions, not facts. I don't question your right to hold them or even the likely veracity of many of them, however, it is evident that you have not, in this, lived up to the bland assertion you made earlier.
okie
 
  2  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2011 08:37 pm
@georgeob1,
I observed the same thing, George. I think he must have gotten his list of accomplishments from some liberal website or something, just a guess. Here is one example of one that he listed:
80. Changed the failing/status quo military command in Afghanistan

First of all, maybe he changed the status quo in Afghanistan, but it remains to be seen and a matter of opinion whether the previous one was failing or whether the new one will be a positive change or an accomplishment.

And this one: Appointment of first Latina to the Supreme Court

That is no accomplishment if she turns out to be a lousy justice.

I will complement ci that he at least posted something, but it would help if he would give a source for the stuff.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2011 08:43 pm
@georgeob1,
You're doing the same thing okie does; make assertions not backed by credible evidence or facts. If they are indeed only "opinions" which ones? I'd like to see the list so I can research them myself.
okie
 
  2  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2011 08:46 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Where did you get your list of 83 accomplishments, imposter? It would be helpful to know who thought they were accomplishments and compiled the list.
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2011 08:50 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Well, here's an example - not the best one but good enough to make the point;
cicerone impostor wrote:
Quote:
2- Poor leadership in general and on several issues, such as foreign policy, energy policy, tax policy, border security, national security, the wars, etc.


FACT: The GOP was hell bent to make sure Obama's leadership was handicapped from the time he took over the white house. The fact that the media called the GOP the "No Party" didn't happen by imagination; it's fact. All one needs to do is look at all the filibuster actions the GOP took on most legislation presented in congress. It's a record high for any congress

The facts and opinion-based interpretations of facts you listed don't disprove the assertion.

I think okie is guilty of many of the same rhetorical deficiencies as well.

However, the issue here is the unnecessary and offensive name-calling.
okie
 
  2  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2011 08:56 pm
@georgeob1,
Hey George, I am curious, have I swayed you at all in the running debate about Hitler being a leftist? I don't wish to debate it more here, but I have been wondering if I made a dent in your pre-conceived notions about it?
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Thu 6 Jan, 2011 09:00 pm
@okie,
okie, The where doesn't matter; it's the claims it makes that should be confirmed or refuted. You can question any one of them and give your reasons why. If you can't find any answer through a Google search, I'll do it for you. How fair is that?

Here's another commentary from the web that supports my position on Obama's accomplishments.

Quote:
Saturday, January 23, 2010
President Obama: Promises Kept vs. Promises Broken

Politifact keeps a comprehensive list of all of Obama's campaign promises and where he stands on fulfilling them one year into his administration. Obama has had some obvious stumbles, but according to Politifact:

Still, the ratings show Obama — with the help of a Democratic Congress — has made significant progress on much of his agenda. Political experts give him credit for passing a substantial amount during the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression.

The bad economy may have dimmed public perceptions of his accomplishments, said Thomas Mann, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution who studies the federal government. Obama's approval ratings dropped as 2009 came to an end.

"He's been largely faithful to the promises he made in the campaign, especially substantive policy ones,"
Mann said. "But the public doesn't see what I see in objective terms. There's distrust about the economy, and they're put off by the partisan bickering in Washington. They're scared and skeptical of government, so there's a gulf between what he's accomplished and how it's viewed."
 

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