15
   

On the "worst day" of his life this father fought back.

 
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2010 12:10 am
@Ionus,

I DID notice that.

Thay can be very self-referential.
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2010 05:18 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

Quote:
Yes and yes... There is no right that is not just, and for that reason German and French words for law are both : Right. The constitution says what its goals are, and each is a clear statement of right, that is good that it hopes to achieve... There is absolutly no right to attack rights listed as that would be a contradiction of the aim of justice and the aim of unity, and the aim of domestic tranquility... You cannot have a nation without rights that are mutual and mutually defended... The reason Property rights in continually in conflict with real rights is that they are not enjoyed equally, and those with more property have more rights and clearly more say in government... We are a house divided...
Its a little rambling but am I to understand you think the right to abort is in the USA Constitution ? Are you aware that is probably the last thing they wanted to legalise in formulating rights ?

The rights listed in the constitution are not the end, but the beginning.... IN addition, our founding document says: Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness... Does this include privacy??? Does this include health care??? One can hardly be happy without either... But, in short, If our government actively pursued its stated goal of Justice, and we did as well having universally pleged our selves to one nation with liberty and justice for all, then there would be far less of abortions, and women would have lives and rights they would be eager to share... People want to share happiness... It is misery they wish to keep to themselves... This is not a happy, tranquil, or a land with general welfare.... Everyone has their own justice for a lookout, and loneliness is our common curse, the curse of individualism... People want to put it all on to women... What ever they are looking for in getting pregnant they have not found....

The meaning that should attend all our lives is missing from theirs, and is really missing from all our lives.... WE feed our meaning into our society and economy as others cash it out, just as occcured in ancient Greece and Rome, two societies which also practiced abortion, and devalued life...You cannot tell some one with a law that their lives have meaning... People all know for themselves whether their lives have meaning enough to share... It is cool to tell women that whether respected, or loved, or valued, or supported that they must bear our children... The number of men strutting from bed to bed incapable of respect, love, valuation, or support is the best argument ever for abortion, but for them it is too late, because now that they live they have rights...
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2010 05:56 am
@Ionus,
Quote:
Ionus wrote:

Quote:
If they attack rights no one can live without
If babies are killed in their mother's womb then it will be life they will be without, never mind their rights.

Tell me whose life it is that is killed, and who is the injured party??? Life is not created, but people each give their own life to their children, and if they are so run down, demoralized, and empoverished that they care not to share their miserable lives with their children, it is they who are the injured party... Every woman who suffers a life she would not give to a child is a curse on all of us... Can we not make our females happy???... Can we not give them support and love???... Can we not give them meaning, or do we have no meaning to give???

Quote:
Quote:
So there is some point where the power of society ends and the freedom of the individual begins, and that place is with each individual managing his own affairs up to the point where they begin to have a negative effect on others
Being killed in a mother's womb is a fairly negative effect dont you think ?
I agree that the whole situation is rotton, but it is the mother that is the injured party... If we forced her to smother her living children to have some kind of life herself, would she not be right to curse us as inhuman monsters???... We want to force women to bear children we will hate her for bearing... She kills them for us... She kills them because we despise the poor, even while many of us take our food out of their mouths.... We have absolute contempt for mothers, giving them no break, no support, no understanding, and none of our wealth and welfare even while they give life not just to their own, but to humanity's children...

Quote:
Quote:
People have to be free in their bodies and in their minds to be free on the street or to enjoy political freedom...
Pass the weed, you've been hogging it.....what a lot of impractical theoretical rubbish. How are the poor free ? If the economy fails and you have no work, how much freedom have you lost ?
Entirely practical... It would be great if we would see our freedom as a quality we all enjoy and defend collectively.... Instead, we have made the concept of the individual, and sold it far and wide... So we must look for individual freedom since the communities do not even exist to defend and support their daughters...

Where is the family??? I have a family, and I can promise you that law based upon the concept of the individual and that is the enemy of communities has intruded into every family... Kids who do not understand the value of discipline learn to threaten parents and teacher with 911 at an early age...

Economic forces demand that both parents work, and that four walls and a televison raise their children.... Where is the love??? People who suffer their own lives from end to end, and wish their lives away from pay day to pay day are victims, and have no love to share... There is no way to prevent economic exploitation from leading to sexual exploitation, and sex is given to children as just one more thing to sell or trade, but what if it leads to children unwanted???

The problem with abortion is not one of too much freedom, but of too little... If we were free we would not struggle to have individual freedom which churches could conspire to erase at will... The problem with individual freedom is that it is so dependent, and so indefensible... The individual was not liberated for his own good, but to allow the destruction of supportive communities, to permit the free exploitation of the individual, and even his destruction without recourse, and without those communiites defending us, and making an issue of our justice we are on our own; but no family, or community can grow out of such corrosive conditions...

A thousand years of Western Law has reduced us all to individuals no more capable of communal living than house cats.... Chidren may be given life by their mothers, but they are raised by their community, and no one can be blamed for not bringing a child into a community of hate...The state says we are individuals, and that we are free... If that is so, and there is little evidence of our freedom, then we must at least be free in our privacy, and in our relationships, and in our persons... You can say people are free, for words are cheap....For people to actually be free individuals they must be some where free...
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2010 06:24 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

Quote:
If they attack rights no one can live without
Are you saying no one can live without abortion ???? Logic would dictate no one can live with 100% abortion.

Quote:
It they petition to end abortion, people should petition to amend the constitution to disallow freedom of religion
Were you drunk when you wrote that ? It is so ridiculuous as to defeat itself without comment.

It is because women's lives and the happiness that makes life meaningful are threatened, that the result of having no rights compared to property, having less value than property as a legal matter- that they feel they have so little to share... They would not choose to be treated as a mere object to by used and discarded.... They would not choose to be treated as second class citizens because of an accident of birth... No one having a choice would trade the supportive communities of days past for the heartless loneliness of the present age... The concept of the individual has born its final poisonous fruit... We are isolated products of broken families, and raised without support we have no support to give, and we are laid bare to all manor of exploitation and degradation.... The form of our society has not made a larger nation out of the destruction of many nations, but has turned us all into a mob of individuals incapable of self defense... We are pawns... Cannon fodder... Mere objects to be abuse and used, having no true social life defended by society... We stand as nothing in the balance with the ideal of capital... Marx said many years ago, that children need protection from their parents only because parents desparate for employment would dope their children with gin or opium so they could work without the demands of motherhood... There is no way to support ones self and raise children alone and give them any sort of life.... Where is our community???... Where is our nation???... Our society has made us animals who will eat our children or toss them on the altar of our own ambitions with equanimity.... We have not been improved, but degraded by our unfreedom called freedom which is slavery in fact...
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2010 06:31 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

Quote:
The have no right to conspire against all our rights as they have on countless occasions.......they are not practicing religion, but treason
Is that applicable to all political parties and opinions or just the ones you dont like ?

Yes, to all parties... If our government worked, it would achieve the good goals for which it was formed... There would be no need for unions, association, churches or parties to defend ones rights, and it would not be possible for parties, churches, association or unions of any sort to conspire against our rights.... There is a prejudice in favor of the idea of capital and free enterprise that has reduced the people of the country into objects called consumers, or workers whose freedom must constantly be defended from attack, who have not more rights in fact than food, who have become implements expected to have no more meaning or feeling than instraments... They do not help themselves, and they do not help humanity when they kill their own... They help the system, the ideal system of capital... They are the good expected from the evil of greed without restraint...
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2010 06:46 am
@Fido,
Quote:
The rights listed in the constitution
Nothing about abortion.
Quote:
Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness...
Declaration of Independence...again, nothing about abortion.
The men who wrote those documents knew about abortion and didnt include it.
Quote:
People want to share happiness... It is misery they wish to keep to themselves...
It has been my experience people wish to share misery and keep happiness to themselves.
Quote:
People want to put it all on to women...
????? Very Happy Be serious.
Quote:
What ever they are looking for in getting pregnant they have not found....
Have you heard of accidental pregnancies ?
Quote:
because now that they live they have rights...
At what stage is a fetus dead ?
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2010 07:32 am
@Fido,
Quote:
Tell me whose life it is that is killed, and who is the injured party??? Life is not created, but people each give their own life to their children, and if they are so run down, demoralized, and empoverished that they care not to share their miserable lives with their children, it is they who are the injured party... Every woman who suffers a life she would not give to a child is a curse on all of us... Can we not make our females happy???... Can we not give them support and love???... Can we not give them meaning, or do we have no meaning to give???
Entirely practical... It would be great if we would see our freedom as a quality we all enjoy and defend collectively.... Instead, we have made the concept of the individual, and sold it far and wide... So we must look for individual freedom since the communities do not even exist to defend and support their daughters...

Where is the family??? I have a family, and I can promise you that law based upon the concept of the individual and that is the enemy of communities has intruded into every family... Kids who do not understand the value of discipline learn to threaten parents and teacher with 911 at an early age...

Economic forces demand that both parents work, and that four walls and a televison raise their children.... Where is the love??? People who suffer their own lives from end to end, and wish their lives away from pay day to pay day are victims, and have no love to share... There is no way to prevent economic exploitation from leading to sexual exploitation, and sex is given to children as just one more thing to sell or trade, but what if it leads to children unwanted???

The problem with abortion is not one of too much freedom, but of too little... If we were free we would not struggle to have individual freedom which churches could conspire to erase at will... The problem with individual freedom is that it is so dependent, and so indefensible... The individual was not liberated for his own good, but to allow the destruction of supportive communities, to permit the free exploitation of the individual, and even his destruction without recourse, and without those communiites defending us, and making an issue of our justice we are on our own; but no family, or community can grow out of such corrosive conditions...

A thousand years of Western Law has reduced us all to individuals no more capable of communal living than house cats.... Chidren may be given life by their mothers, but they are raised by their community, and no one can be blamed for not bringing a child into a community of hate...The state says we are individuals, and that we are free... If that is so, and there is little evidence of our freedom, then we must at least be free in our privacy, and in our relationships, and in our persons... You can say people are free, for words are cheap....For people to actually be free individuals they must be some where free...
I agree that the whole situation is rotton, but it is the mother that is the injured party... If we forced her to smother her living children to have some kind of life herself, would she not be right to curse us as inhuman monsters???... We want to force women to bear children we will hate her for bearing... She kills them for us... She kills them because we despise the poor, even while many of us take our food out of their mouths.... We have absolute contempt for mothers, giving them no break, no support, no understanding, and none of our wealth and welfare even while they give life not just to their own, but to humanity's children...
It is because women's lives and the happiness that makes life meaningful are threatened, that the result of having no rights compared to property, having less value than property as a legal matter- that they feel they have so little to share... They would not choose to be treated as a mere object to by used and discarded.... They would not choose to be treated as second class citizens because of an accident of birth... No one having a choice would trade the supportive communities of days past for the heartless loneliness of the present age... The concept of the individual has born its final poisonous fruit... We are isolated products of broken families, and raised without support we have no support to give, and we are laid bare to all manor of exploitation and degradation.... The form of our society has not made a larger nation out of the destruction of many nations, but has turned us all into a mob of individuals incapable of self defense... We are pawns... Cannon fodder... Mere objects to be abuse and used, having no true social life defended by society... We stand as nothing in the balance with the ideal of capital... Marx said many years ago, that children need protection from their parents only because parents desparate for employment would dope their children with gin or opium so they could work without the demands of motherhood... There is no way to support ones self and raise children alone and give them any sort of life.... Where is our community???... Where is our nation???... Our society has made us animals who will eat our children or toss them on the altar of our own ambitions with equanimity.... We have not been improved, but degraded by our unfreedom called freedom which is slavery in fact...

Yes, to all parties... If our government worked, it would achieve the good goals for which it was formed... There would be no need for unions, association, churches or parties to defend ones rights, and it would not be possible for parties, churches, association or unions of any sort to conspire against our rights.... There is a prejudice in favor of the idea of capital and free enterprise that has reduced the people of the country into objects called consumers, or workers whose freedom must constantly be defended from attack, who have not more rights in fact than food, who have become implements expected to have no more meaning or feeling than instraments... They do not help themselves, and they do not help humanity when they kill their own... They help the system, the ideal system of capital... They are the good expected from the evil of greed without restraint...

But are you for it or against it ??
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2010 10:58 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

Quote:
The rights listed in the constitution
Nothing about abortion.
Quote:
Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness...
Declaration of Independence...again, nothing about abortion.
The men who wrote those documents knew about abortion and didnt include it.
Quote:
People want to share happiness... It is misery they wish to keep to themselves...
It has been my experience people wish to share misery and keep happiness to themselves.
Quote:
People want to put it all on to women...
????? Very Happy Be serious.
Quote:
What ever they are looking for in getting pregnant they have not found....
Have you heard of accidental pregnancies ?
Quote:
because now that they live they have rights...
At what stage is a fetus dead ?
If you are waiting for some one to write your rights then you will never have them... You know yourself what rights you need, and if your rights and the exercise of them hurt no one, who can justly refuse you... There are victims from the rights of press and religion... By that standard alone they should not be free, but should consider their right a privilage only as good as it does no harm...
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2010 02:47 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

I don 't feel comfortable having u on MY side, F'ART.

CHANGE SIDES and resume DISagreeing with me, ASAP.

I know it's disappointing, but as it turns out, often uncommon people will find common ground.

Would it make you feel better if I said some liberal stuff? I could go get some Huffington Post articles and repost them. That would drive a comfortable wedge between us if you're feeling too close.

A
R
T
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2010 05:39 pm
@Fido,
Quote:
the exercise of them hurt no one
You are still talking about killing a fetus, right ?
Quote:
There are victims from the rights of press and religion
And there are victims from the press and religion of rights.
What would you do if it was your child to be aborted and you had no say in it?
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Nov, 2010 09:26 am
@Ionus,
Quote:
Ionus wrote:

Quote:
the exercise of them hurt no one
You are still talking about killing a fetus, right ?
Quote:

Absolutely so... But don't be some God damned hypocrite about it... The way to protect the unborn, and even the undead is to protect the living who do have right and have rights that are entirely unprotected and violated in the present scheme of things... There are all kinds of assholes out there who scream right to life who also say: Go to war, or who support privilages as ideals whose result makes poverty, pain, misery, and immorality all the more certain, and make death untimely and undeserved all too certain... Such people are scum who never look at the consequences of rights they presume legitimate, but only follow without criticism the ideals they have been handed culturally... People are not just having abortions for the fun of it, or as the result of fun... They have good cause and abortion is likely to help... Look at why it is a solution, and look at the problems that make the solution of law and penalty seem likely to be effective... Fix the cause of the problem rather than attacking the problem by attacking the people with the problem... No one needs a law to make abortions less likely... All they need is the decency to help...


Quote:
There are victims from the rights of press and religion
And there are victims from the press and religion of rights.
What would you do if it was your child to be aborted and you had no say in it?

I would blame myself for failing in my relationships... There are no victim of rights... Good comes out of rights or it is not a right...
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Nov, 2010 10:49 am
@Ionus,
It would help if you understand that children get their rights from the same place they get their lives, and that is from their parents, and the only other way to have rights is to take ones rights and defend them to the death from those who want you to have them not...

Forget all the metaphysical nonsense of being created by God... No one believes that crap, and it is beyond proof... Life is a chain connecting all life at its earliest point in time... We got our lives from people willing to give us a bit of their own for the reward of life after death, as a way, the only way of preserving their own lives... But rights are an inheritance as much as is life, and we have it as a legacy...

Do you think children want to be born without rights??? From my perspective we have too many such people without sufficient rights to ensure any sort of happy existence, and they are a curse, wishing away their own lives and caring not for the lives of others... You want to take rights to ensure life, but in doing so you make all life more perilous.... It does not matter how much I personally dislike abortion, or think it a sin... If it is a sin it is for God to deal with... My problems are with real people in the real world, and you cannot justify taking rights from anyone when abortion is only desirable to those without enough rights to make procreation a joy...

Children take a lot, and they are not just the property and problem of their parents as they are made to seem... They are our problem, and mothers should be paid for becoming mothers, and supported in every sense by society... The churches could do so, but they fear to support sin... So they attack the rights of women, and all of us at the same time... It is for their own hatred of humanity, and their own love of power that the act in such a fashion... Bear those children yourselves... Take on the burden of every unwanted child... You will not because it is so much easier and heartless to have another unneeded law...It is more difficult to find love in the heart of a christian than to find money in their pockets... Christianity should be like working for a living, and be the path to poverty instead of the highway to wealth...

What do you think???
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Nov, 2010 10:59 am
@Fido,
Fascinating retort.

BBB
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Nov, 2010 11:04 am
@BumbleBeeBoogie,
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:

Fascinating retort.

BBB
Thanks
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 12:59 am
@Fido,
Quote:
children get their rights from the same place they get their lives, and that is from their parents
School and the peer group are big.
Quote:
Forget all the metaphysical nonsense of being created by God... No one believes that crap
Plainly wrong.
Quote:
it is beyond proof
Agreed.
Quote:
We got our lives from people willing to give us a bit of their own
Agreed.
Quote:
for the reward of life after death
No, that is not a requirement for pregnancy.
Quote:
From my perspective we have too many such people without sufficient rights to ensure any sort of happy existence, and they are a curse,
Thats a rather strange description of the poor.
Quote:
You want to take rights to ensure life
No, I want to give rights back to the living.
Quote:
My problems are with real people in the real world, and you cannot justify taking rights from anyone when abortion is only desirable to those without enough rights to make procreation a joy...
Not so....rich people in rich countries have abortions...why dont they have enough rights ?
Quote:
They are our problem, and mothers should be paid for becoming mothers, and supported in every sense by society...
Agreed.
Quote:
The churches could do so, but they fear to support sin...
Definitely wrong. Since BC, monasteries have taken in unwanted children. Qumran took in unwanted children, so did all catholic centres through the middle ages right up to when it was taken over by the governement....and the quality of the service fell down.
Quote:
Take on the burden of every unwanted child... You will not
You have records to support my lack of charity work here and overseas ? Really ?
Quote:
It is more difficult to find love in the heart of a christian than to find money in their pockets...
I thought it was easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven.
Quote:
Christianity should be like working for a living, and be the path to poverty instead of the highway to wealth...
I DEFINITELY agree with that one...but I am not religious.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 03:51 am
@Fido,
Your ability to reason in the abstract is very, very poor.
U appear to be hopelessly confused (unless u r posting under the influence of drugs.)





David
Fido
 
  2  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 05:22 am
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

Your ability to reason in the abstract is very, very poor.
U appear to be hopelessly confused (unless u r posting under the influence of drugs.)





David
Shut up.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 05:25 am
@Ionus,
The rich have abortions because just like the poor they rob rights and wealth from, they have lives without meaning; and they are just taking the slow approach to suicide without near the desparation of the poor... The poor do not want to share their pooverty with their children... The rich do not want to share their wealth, or anything... Having all, they find they have nothing because they are nothing, and filling that nothingness is what made them seek wealth in the first place...
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 06:51 am
@Fido,
Actually the reason people seek wealth is to improve their sexual competitiiveness. An attractive nest with lots of blue bottle tops impresses a mate.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 08:54 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

Actually the reason people seek wealth is to improve their sexual competitiiveness. An attractive nest with lots of blue bottle tops impresses a mate.
True, but ultimately what they wish to offer is security, and no matter how much you take your security out of the security of others you do no get more secure because people forced tolive with insecurity become dangerous... If people could manage to be rational about it they would want a whole society that was strong and secure rather than building a high wall and a castle, which can easily be breached... Consider, that those who feel they have no choice but to kill their own to survive will never be true friends and support to those who force that decision upon them... The whole society needs enough of wealth, and enough of security and enough of rights to have meaning... As long as some people will never have enough, the whole society cannot hope to have enough.... It is demeaning...
 

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