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Friends don't let friends fat-talk

 
 
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failures art
 
  4  
Thu 14 Oct, 2010 10:32 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
it?

I used to say "retard" a lot, but I don't anymore. It's the same thing. Many people challenge themselves to use less defamatory speech
You conveniently missed the point that this program is all about trying to pressure OTHER people into a certain behaviour.

So ******* what?

That "pressure" either means something to you or it doesn't. It doesn't mean anything to you, but for some stupid reason it seems to matter that it could mean something to someone else.

As I said before, I used to say "retard" a lot, and as an insult. When I said the word, I wasn't really even thinking about people of mental disabilities. When I evaluated the kind of hurtful association I was perpetuating, and I thought about the people and families for whom my language treaded on, I knew I had to stop. From that point on, if someone was being stupid, they were "stupid."

After working in student wellness programs, I've seen firsthand the effects of eating disorders. I've seem people do great harm to their bodies in striving to be thin, and damn being healthy. Practicing "fat-free" language is an interesting challenge, and I think it's a good one. I'm a lot thinner than many, and a lot thinner than many marathoners and triathletes. Should they envy me? Should the great effort they have put forth to train and condition their bodies be of less value than a some skinny person?

The point of a challenge like this (and I'm not in the least surprised that it goes beyond your comprehension) is not to police speech about body image but to promote positive self image. When body image becomes the dominating coefficient in self image, people will devalue all of their other features. This is very sad.

A
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T
hawkeye10
 
  -4  
Fri 15 Oct, 2010 12:36 am
@failures art,
Quote:
When body image becomes the dominating coefficient in self image, people will devalue all of their other features. This is very sad.

I prefer beauty over the ugly in all things. I have no comprehension of why one would not, but to each his own I guess.

Quote:
That "pressure" either means something to you or it doesn't. It doesn't mean anything to you, but for some stupid reason it seems to matter that it could mean something to someone else.

Yes, I find this attempt to energize group think repugnant. I will continue to claim that it is repugnant in the hopes that it will inspire others to resist it, if it should be their will to do so.
msolga
 
  1  
Fri 15 Oct, 2010 02:09 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
The social engineering programs powered by pressuring individuals to conform to the party line never end, they just get worse. I am sure that an indepth study of the Nazi tactics was made in preparation. Policing of speech and images will correct every perceived social ill.....right?

in response to:
Quote:
seemingly innocuous comments like "Omigosh, you look so good — have you lost weight?"


Nazi tactics?
I think you might be overreacting a wee bit, hawkeye.
Maybe a comment like: "Omigosh, you look so good — have you lost weight?" could actually have been meant as encouragement?
No one exactly feels great when considerably overweight, after all.
And if they've made the effort to take off a little weight ... maybe, just maybe, it might be nice that a friend has noticed? Smile
hawkeye10
 
  -3  
Fri 15 Oct, 2010 02:37 am
@msolga,
Quote:
Maybe a comment like: "Omigosh, you look so good — have you lost weight?" could actually have been meant as encouragement?
more than likely, but had you read the piece in the OP you would have noticed that according to these radicals even positive comments on weight are out of line. You are pressuring your subject to maintain a look that is pleasing to you, which is oppressive and not good for them, it is claimed.

Using this theory one would never be able to say anything either positive or negative about how a person looks. No doubt next up we could not say anything about how a person acts either.

Quote:
And if they've made the effort to take off a little weight ... maybe, just maybe, it might be nice that a friend has noticed?
exactly....I am pleased to have you on my side of the argument on this question.
msolga
 
  1  
Fri 15 Oct, 2010 02:43 am
@hawkeye10,
It takes me by surprise, too, hawkeye! Surprised
Though you do appear to have rather over-stated your case! Wink
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Fri 15 Oct, 2010 02:43 am
@hawkeye10,
DOWN WITH POLITICAL CORRECTNESS !!!!!

What is "lookism" ?





David
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Fri 15 Oct, 2010 02:55 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
prejudice or discrimination based on physical appearance and especially physical appearance believed to fall short of societal notions of beauty
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lookism

the definition has been expanded by the zealots to "any judgement about how a person looks", for liking some look or not liking a look is deemed to be prejudiced whether there was any pre judgment or not. These are the same fools who claim that fashion shows should have equal numbers of fatties as traditional models, and who claim the dress codes of any kind anywhere should be outlawed. Your employer for instance should not be allowed to have any say in what you wear, so long as no one is offended.
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  2  
Fri 15 Oct, 2010 03:04 am
I'm sorry, but I don't get this either.
So if someone comes back from vacation looking tan and rested and I say, 'You look like you had a nice relaxing time and you got some good color,' that could be considered me encouraging them to behave in such a way that they'd be more likely to develop skin cancer at some point??!!
And if I say, 'Oh you have a really nice figure - I wish I had long, thin legs like that,' that could be considered me encouraging that person to engage in behavior that leads to an eating disorder?

I get the fact that people with weight issues should not be held up to ridicule - and I would never do that - my mother has been overweight her entire life - I know what a daily struggle it has been for her and I love her exactly as she is. I can't even imagine a thin mother.

But on the other hand, it is considered abusive to compliment my daughter on what I view to be the attractive points of her body? She has a wonderful figure - it's wrong for me to tell her that?
What?!!
I just don't get this.

It's like you're not allowed to tell kids who are A students that they did a wonderful job because it might make the kids who are D students feel bad?
Why can't we acknowledge what is true and give credit for what is true?

And that doesn't mean I equate the thin people with the A grades...but it's getting sort of crazy isn't it.

What's next - we can't say 'You have beautiful thick hair,' to people who do because it will make the people who have thin hair feel bad?'


Quote:
A recent Reflections participant, Vanderbilt senior Julie Lucas has made a pact with her roommate to hold each other accountable for fat talk. "A lot of times I say, 'I need to go on a run,' and she says, 'No, you want to go on a run,' " says Lucas. "It's an attitude change."

Well, what if she doesn't really WANT to go on a run, but she's committed to her running program and so her body NEEDS it?
She's not allowed to use the word NEED?
Am I allowed to say, 'I need to stop eating so many crisps and drinking so many sodas?
Or do I have to say, 'I'm not pressured by the media and certainly not health concerns (yeah right) but I WANT to stop eating crisps and drinking sodas!!'

Bullshit - if I don't want to end up unhealthy - I NEED to and I NEED to get some exercise everyday.



hawkeye10
 
  0  
Fri 15 Oct, 2010 03:12 am
@aidan,
Quote:
It's like you're not allowed to tell kids who are A students that they did a wonderful job because it might make the kids who are D students feel bad?
Why can't we acknowledge what is true and give credit for what is true?

And that doesn't mean I equate the thin people with the A grades...but it's getting sort of crazy isn't it
As I said in another thread this happened to my kid, number one in her class at graduation and the school said that it would violate the values of the school to make any mention of it....WTF!
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  1  
Fri 15 Oct, 2010 07:15 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
When body image becomes the dominating coefficient in self image, people will devalue all of their other features. This is very sad.

I prefer beauty over the ugly in all things. I have no comprehension of why one would not, but to each his own I guess.


No. Actually, you don't. Your statements here wold support a belief that a person should discard all of the beautiful things about themselves because of one specific trait. For that matter, the person may even be thin, but if they are obsessed with staying thin, they start to fear it is their only value or that no other feature is of aesthetic appeal.

So no. Not to each their own, as you claim. You mean to say: To each, my view.

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
That "pressure" either means something to you or it doesn't. It doesn't mean anything to you, but for some stupid reason it seems to matter that it could mean something to someone else.

Yes, I find this attempt to energize group think repugnant. I will continue to claim that it is repugnant in the hopes that it will inspire others to resist it, if it should be their will to do so.

You only inspire the gag reflex.

A
Resist and do what exactly?
T
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  1  
Fri 15 Oct, 2010 07:27 am
@aidan,
aidan wrote:

So if someone comes back from vacation looking tan and rested and I say, 'You look like you had a nice relaxing time and you got some good color,' that could be considered me encouraging them to behave in such a way that they'd be more likely to develop skin cancer at some point??!!

I think some people DO feel this way. I know lots of fair types that can't get a tan, and they are often too embarrassed to be seen in a bathing suit. So even though they aren't trying to get skin cancer they may be developing a negative self image because of it.

Now, in this case I think more modern times have embraced all pigmentation as being of beauty. However, you will still find in black and Indian communities the value put on women who meet the "paper bag" standard of pigment. I worked with youth from St. Louis, and young black girls would talk about the pretty girl who was "high yellow." Many of these girls were very pretty, and yet they expressed envy of girls with lighter skin.

Social standardization of beauty at surface level seems like a benign threat, but I think that promoting more a more holistic view of beauty is ultimately better.

Remember, it's not only people who are overweight who obsess over weight. It's not only pale people who obsess over being tan.

A
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PUNKEY
 
  1  
Fri 15 Oct, 2010 08:00 am
First of all, the college campus is hardly the "real" world.

It's a bunch of 18 year olds who ARE STILL focused on the superficial - how you dress, what you drive, what you look like, sexuality, your race, etc. It's all forms of Cultural Bullying that need to be called out for correction.

Shame someone has to do this kind of parenting at this age. But I applaud the effort.
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Fri 15 Oct, 2010 08:25 am
@failures art,
My problem is seeing how paying a person an off-the-cuff compliment can be taken, in every instance, to be encouraging a negative or obsessive behavior.
Are we supposed to now approach all people in paying compliments as if the default personality type is obsessive/compulsive?
In other words that if we pay a compliment to someone, there's a better than average chance it will trigger or encourage an obsessive response to that specific aspect of their appearance?

Why would this be so? Do you think it's because physical appearance has come so much to the fore in our society that that's all that younger people ever think about?

If so, instead of stopping the paying of compliments, maybe we should change other aspects of our society - for instance, the overwhelming media presence in the lives of young people today.

I can tell you it's changed since I was a young adult.
I am a very fair-skinned person. I almost never tan. I was embarrassed at the beginning of every summer to put on shorts or a bathing suit because I felt so white.
But my attitude toward it was 'hey, them's the breaks'
I would have loved to have had my older sister or brother's skin - they both tanned beautifully- but I didn't. What are you gonna do? You were thankful for the things you like about yourself and you do the best you can with the things you don't.

I never felt the need to go lie on a tanning bed or get my skin permanently pigmented or whatever.

I mean, with this sort of reasoning, should we not say to someone who gets contacts, 'Oh, you can really see how beautiful your eyes are now,' because someone else in the room is wearing glasses?
I wear glasses myself, and I would be nothing but happy for the person who could wear contacts and felt happier about their appearance.
Would a young person today who wears glasses develop lower self-esteem because someone else could wear contacts?

There's something really wrong there that cutting out compliments is not going to help.

And if we don't encourage healthy weights and lifestyles as an ideal - and we allow people to believe that they're just fine the way they are - even if what they do to themselves is highly damaging to their health - how are we going to deal with the resulting health issues in our society?

This reminds me of the way that some communities approached sports - everyone got the trophy. No one ever lost. Everyone always had to be a winner.
That's not the real world.

In terms of different skin pigmentations: if I say someone has beautiful dark skin, it doesn't mean I don't like light skin. In the same breath as I tell someone I think they have skin like polished ebony, I might say someone else has skin like porcelain. And if I say I like red hair that doesn't mean I don't also like brown hair.
People are allowed to find more than one thing attractive.
Do people no longer understand that?

Maybe that's why all the girls I see these days seem to look alike.
Sad....
This whole thing just seems a little crazy to me.

Because I don't think telling someone they have a good figure or pretty hair or lovely skin is wrong. It's kind.
saab
 
  1  
Fri 15 Oct, 2010 09:03 am
@aidan,
I agree with you 100%.
If we are not allowed to talk about fat or even a normal overweight of a few pounds we might send a message that only skinny people are beautiful and that might cause this in even more young women.
http://www.chapso.de/galpics/2007/07/25/23091/30004/377697-1185383733.jpg
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Fri 15 Oct, 2010 09:58 am
@saab,
I think that what has been borne out is the opposite of what you're assuming might happen if we were not allowed to talk about overweight people. Holding a thin body type as an ideal, and all that goes with it, like statements of approval when one becomes thinner, has lead to obsessions that result in people like the one in the images you've linked.

Anorexia nervosa isn't the result of not talking about overweight; it's the result of talking about overweight in light of modern society's fascination with thin bodies.
failures art
 
  1  
Fri 15 Oct, 2010 10:27 am
@aidan,
aidan wrote:

My problem is seeing how paying a person an off-the-cuff compliment can be taken, in every instance, to be encouraging a negative or obsessive behavior.
Are we supposed to now approach all people in paying compliments as if the default personality type is obsessive/compulsive?

I get what you're saying but let's not speculate here. There are people who are incredibly weight obsessed. These people are not all fat or skinny. Let's set aside for a second how a person gets into a mentality like that, and only concentrate on how we ,as individuals, can help people out. This kind of abstemious practice of language is an attempt to stop perpetuating this kind of thing.

aidan wrote:

In other words that if we pay a compliment to someone, there's a better than average chance it will trigger or encourage an obsessive response to that specific aspect of their appearance?


No, not every compliment is going to send someone into an obsessive downward spiral, but if someone is already there, it will have a negative effect.

aidan wrote:

Do you think it's because physical appearance has come so much to the fore in our society that that's all that younger people ever think about?

I'm not only concerned with "younger people." I think negative self image effects people of all ages. I do think you may be on to something in terms of media culture and the promotion of physical appearance. I believe that there is growing diversity in media portrayals of beauty. Plenty of distance yet to travel though.

Was it last year that the Lane Bryant advertisement was pulled for being "distasteful?"

A
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failures art
 
  1  
Fri 15 Oct, 2010 10:28 am
@InfraBlue,
I think saab was being sarcastic...

A
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T
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  -4  
Fri 15 Oct, 2010 10:28 am
@InfraBlue,
The solution to peer pressure is to try to train our young people to be less prone to it not to used it as a tool of control of our young people.
0 Replies
 
 

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