Question: Do you consider yourself passive aggressive?

@Gargamel,

now you have to follow that up by spiking one of her threads, garg.

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@chai2,

I was raised that not being obedient to my superiors was a sin, including sassing back, inculcated in a world of martyrdom as a good thing, and spent high school with absolutely no instances of any of us arguing, except one memorable class, the one in which Sr. Anthony told us that pleasure in marriage was a sin, and some girls protested.

So, becoming passive aggressive was natural, even a step ahead.

As I aged, if not in grace, with a clearer eye, I got known among the girlfriends as the great summarizer and resolver (you would all guffaw), but that was a way to deal with the amazing discussions from women who did know how to argue without flying off the handle, and an increasing number of male friends who were great at vigorous debate.

I still remember a get together at Bonnie's apartment, with eight of us, at a dinner party that developed into a good if somewhat rabid discussion re history, primarily but not entirely by the men, probably in the late 60's.

I can be too aggressive when I'm riled, which is almost but not quite a reaction to being steady and thoughtful (or trying to) a good part of the time... the reins loosen. I get sloppy if I've had wine and am tired but I can be equally aggressive when I'm agitated when wide awake and sunny.

So, I'm a work in progress and a2k is instructive, in its way, toward how to disagree assertively but not aggressively.

Still, and perhaps confounding, I'm not all that comfortable around someone who is always temperate. I've learned to suspect constant control.

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@chai2,

chai2 wrote:

passive aggressive

What's your definition of this, please?

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@Reyn,

Reyn wrote:

chai2 wrote:
passive aggressive

What's your definition of this, please?

Pretty much what mame said.

It's not, like osso said, this thing about it being a sin for not being obedient.

It's the person who always seems to "forget" part of what they were supposed to do, or do an aspect of it just poorly enough, even though they had the proper tools, know-how, guidance, etc, that the person they are acting out towards either has to...

a) step in and make the change and correction. Then the P/A person can claim their work isn't good enough, so they can give it up.
b) the other person has to let them know their work wasn't entirely correct...they perform sub par so often, so need to be told often corrections are needed, so now they can say the other person is "picking on them", "asking too much", "wasn't clear in what they wanted", "never told them that", etc.

that's not all of course, just an example.

um...Has someone ever told you that you were paranoid, or making a big deal out of something, when you say "so and so knows better than this. it's driving me crazy that they continue to say/do this"
You Know you're not being paranoid. You Know you sound as if you're making a big deal out of something.....which is what the P/A wanted. If it get's back to them...."oh, I didn't know you felt that way"

Roberta's definition had a lot of good points. Let me see if I can find another.

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oh, a message to anyone out there who feels they are P/A, but don't want to mention it here....

Please, for the love of Mike, TELL people when something is bothering you.
Seriously, the other person can take it. They would much rather have you tell them what is wrong, then to have to deal with your "punishments", for what, is many times impossible to figure out.

It does not endear you to anyone.

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@chai2,

Passive aggression is, to me, quite broadly distributed, may be behind much of many of our behaviors - at the same time seriously aggressive behavior, gah, and totally controlled verbiage and the behavior with it, also gah.

What I figure is we are all messes in progress.

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@chai2,

"It's not, like osso said, this thing about it being a sin for not being obedient."

Eh? Obedience as a virtue strongly promoted is a pasture for passive aggression, she says. People don't come out of all that ready to be calm and logical in argument re the powers that be, standing relaxed on a stage.

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Too late to edit - I didn't define passive aggression as being obedient.

I do think there is a connection re how one is 'brought up', deals with how they perceive that, and then connects with others.

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@ossobuco,

I agree. I think children of particularly overbearing parents wind up with passive-aggressive tendencies.

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I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts about the tenets of Alcoholics Anonymous perhaps developing passive-aggressive tendencies in adherents? For people who aren't Christians, who adopt a Higher Power and are told to let the Higher Power handle their problems... who must solemnly admit that their lives have become unmanagable - and the only way to live is reliance on this H.P.... Many times, when people take liberties against a recovering alcoholic, they are counseled to release their resentment through prayer.

While this thankfully works for many adherents, it seems to me to build up an incredible reservoir of frustration. Is this responsible for the Dry Drunk phenom? ....creating a very angry person who may explode in seemingly mild situations?

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I see PA-iveness as a behavior that has a goal - a desired final result - without the appearance of being pushy or aggressive. It's manipulative and generally guilt-inducing.

I've known some folks who have PA down to an art form. There were lots of Catholics from my childhood with PA tendencies. They were taught not to want. They were taught to be humble. They were taught that it's somehow baaaad to show agression. So, rather than show aggression they mastered the art of making others feel guilty. They also tend to be conniving and manipulative.

As much as I don't like overly aggressive people, I'd rather deal with them any day than stoke the egos and un-ruffle the ruffled feathers of the PAs.

Oh -- and, no, I don't consider myself to be passively aggressive. I hope I'm not aggressive at all, but I"ll arm wrestle you for the assertiveness championship.

1 Reply

Three examples from the corporate world (all really happened)...

1) Paula was put in charge of a project. She was given a budget and a timeline. There was no way in hell that the project was going to come in on time or on budget. Paula browbeat her team (some direct reports, some team members from other departments) to work inordinate hours, under horrendous stress to "Do Whatever It Takes, PEOPLE!!!" to get the job done. The project was late and over budget but Paula was promoted for getting the most from her people. Paula's team members referred to her as the "Dragon Lady".

2) Mark was put in charge of a project. He was given a budget and a timeline. There was no way in hell that the project was going to come in on time or on budget. Mark subtly let it be known to just a few team members that his job was on the line; that his boss had told him to look for work elsewhere if he didn't deliver the project on time and on budget. A few of Marks team members felt bad for Mark and starting pushing the other members to, "Do Whatever It Takes, PEOPLE!!!" to get the job done for Mark. The project was late and over budget but Mark's job was saved because his overly aggressive boss was transferred to another division before the timeline passed. Mark's team members referred to Mark as "Poor Mark".

3) Sarah was put in charge of a project. She was given a budget and a timeline. There was no way in hell that the project was going to come in on time or on budget. Sarah told her manager that the expectations were unreasonable but that she and her team would do their best. Sarah was told to "Do Whatever It Takes !!!" to get the job done. Sarah was straight forward and honest with her team members. She asked for realistic numbers and dates. She also asked for shortcuts that would reduce both. She presented both sets of figures to her management and asked them if they wanted it done right or on time. Sarah and her entire team were promoted when the project achieved a smooth roll out 3 months late and slightly over budget. Sarah's team members referred to her as "Sarah".

Paula was aggressive, Mark was passive aggressive, and Sarah was assertive.

1 Reply

@JPB,

Ok, I agree with you on all this, except maybe re the first sentence - I think that the people doing it don't get it, much of the time.

hadn't read jpb's last post

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I don't look for a confrontation but I don't shy away from it either and I can be
aggressive - being in a corporate setting you almost have to assert yourself,
yet it's last on my list. I also noticed that the older I get the more agreeable I become.

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@chai2,

chai2 wrote:

If so, why do you behave this way?

What is she implying?! Who does she think she is?! I'm not passive aggressive. ((Mummble grumble)) I guess I'll just burn this Chai effigy! The nerve of some people asking their questions and such! Confused

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Gee, I don't know.

I was once asked to volunteer for 12 months of payroll deductions for United Way. The clincher was supposed to be that it was tax deductable. So, I told the boss that given my pay scale, itemizing deductions would cost me an easy $2,000/year. Was this passive/agressive?

PS I made that number up on the spot. He didn't challenge it so it must have been about right, right?

1 Reply

Gee, I don't know either. I see what I want, I go after it. If I don't get it, so?
I work hard, play hard, since about age 6. On the job, I do or die. The work gets done if I must stay up all night. I assert myself if I'm interested but don't think I'm aggressive about it. I've never been anybody's boss, headed up a group for anything, never liked team sports. Of course I like working with groups of people but the work should be my own.

One thing I would never do, or continue doing, is live with or be in a relationship with someone (man or woman) who is moody, sulky, pouty. So far I haven't. Or, the gameplayers. My first real boyfriend used to lie about things needlessly, then say to me, "When are you going to stop lying to me?" I just laughed. When bringing me home, he would say "Call me if you want to go out." I just laughed. For Pete's sake, I was 17. Other odd things. People marry these people? I grew to see them coming, and ran.

I suppose I didn't allow people to affect me. I'm way too mercurial, just sort of sliiiide away.

It's 1:14 a.m. G'night

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@roger,

roger wrote:

Gee, I don't know.

I was once asked to volunteer for 12 months of payroll deductions for United Way. The clincher was supposed to be that it was tax deductable. So, I told the boss that given my pay scale, itemizing deductions would cost me an easy $2,000/year. Was this passive/agressive?

PS I made that number up on the spot. He didn't challenge it so it must have been about right, right?

I can't tell if you're being serious.

No I don't think that was PA.
A PA person whould have accepted the volunteer deduction, then, for the rest of the time they worked for the company found multiple tiny ways to make your displeasure known. None of which could be definately be linked to your displeasure.

See, from what I've observed, being PA is never doing something as obvious as burning an effigy, giving a dollar number of what it would cost you to do something, saying "Well I never!"

In a lot of situation, it seems the PA person (I'm writing "seems" to be PC, but if they are truly PA, I think they really are) getting off on the fact their resistance, vague answers, lack of response, is causing others more work.

Roger, you came up with that 20K figure, right then, off the top of your head? What if your boss, more out of curiousity rather than really wanting you to volunteer, responded "Wow, you came up with that 20K figure pretty fast. Where did you come up with that number?" Remember, they are really just curious how you so quickly could figure that.

Even if you said, "well, let's see, there this, and this, oh and this" and it all added up to your only losing a thousand dollars, your boss would still see it was costing you money, and say "wow, yeah that doesn't make sense for you to do that."

In actually, he really didn't care if you signed up for deductions or not, and you gave him what seemed to be a reasonable answer. Maybe he knew something you didn't know about what it would cost, and didn't want to push it.

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@JPB,

JPB wrote:

Three examples from the corporate world (all really happened)...

1) Paula was put in charge of a project. She was given a budget and a timeline. There was no way in hell that the project was going to come in on time or on budget. Paula browbeat her team (some direct reports, some team members from other departments) to work inordinate hours, under horrendous stress to "Do Whatever It Takes, PEOPLE!!!" to get the job done. The project was late and over budget but Paula was promoted for getting the most from her people. Paula's team members referred to her as the "Dragon Lady".

2) Mark was put in charge of a project. He was given a budget and a timeline. There was no way in hell that the project was going to come in on time or on budget. Mark subtly let it be known to just a few team members that his job was on the line; that his boss had told him to look for work elsewhere if he didn't deliver the project on time and on budget. A few of Marks team members felt bad for Mark and starting pushing the other members to, "Do Whatever It Takes, PEOPLE!!!" to get the job done for Mark. The project was late and over budget but Mark's job was saved because his overly aggressive boss was transferred to another division before the timeline passed. Mark's team members referred to Mark as "Poor Mark".

3) Sarah was put in charge of a project. She was given a budget and a timeline. There was no way in hell that the project was going to come in on time or on budget. Sarah told her manager that the expectations were unreasonable but that she and her team would do their best. Sarah was told to "Do Whatever It Takes !!!" to get the job done. Sarah was straight forward and honest with her team members. She asked for realistic numbers and dates. She also asked for shortcuts that would reduce both. She presented both sets of figures to her management and asked them if they wanted it done right or on time. Sarah and her entire team were promoted when the project achieved a smooth roll out 3 months late and slightly over budget. Sarah's team members referred to her as "Sarah".

Paula was aggressive, Mark was passive aggressive, and Sarah was assertive.

I think JPB has it quite right.

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@chai2,

chai2 wrote:

[...It's the person who always seems to "forget" part of what they were supposed to do, or do an aspect of it just poorly enough, even though they had the proper tools, know-how, guidance, etc, that the person they are acting out towards either has to...

a) step in and make the change and correction. Then the P/A person can claim their work isn't good enough, so they can give it up.
b) the other person has to let them know their work wasn't entirely correct...they perform sub par so often, so need to be told often corrections are needed, so now they can say the other person is "picking on them", "asking too much", "wasn't clear in what they wanted", "never told them that", etc....

Yep, I've seen this. It's maddening, and it's hard to combat. Do you give the P/A person more responsibility so that they can (hopefully) do better and then can be praised? Do you give them less because they're just not dependable? I have found myself treating these people like puppies, e. g. lavishly praising them when they do something right or well and doing my best to ignore or misdirect when they do things poorly -- and I hate that, as it seems to be somewhat P/A as well. Changing up their tasks is another option but, really, why reward someone for this kind of ridiculous behavior by only giving them things to do that they really, really love? After all, someone has to type up the invoices or clean the bedpans or do whatever less than wonderful job there is out there.

I repeat -- why reward someone for poor behavior just to get a good 11% out of them when everyone else is giving 100%?

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Question: Do you consider yourself passive aggressive?

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