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How do you see the burning of Holy Koran by pastor Terry Jones

 
 
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 09:09 am
@oralloy,
I never said you were denying people rights. I was referring to Mr. Jones, who is. Your moral equivocation between a directly and aggressive provocation to all Muslims (burning Korans) with the completely unoffensive building of a community center is stupid.

Stupid comments RE: American stuff at Hiroshima ground zero and Japanese stuff at Pearl Harbor have only served to embarrass you by revealing the shallow depth of understanding you have on this.

A
R
T

Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 09:23 am
NYT: U.S. Pastor must be killed
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 09:56 am
@Irishk,
I can't wait for this Jones idiot to come out and speak about this. He's exactly as important as he wants to be now.

A
R
T
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 04:05 pm
@failures art,
I actually wouldn't mind if he just slithered off into obscurity and we never heard from him again. Probably won't happen, though.

Also, I just read that Supreme Court Justice Steven Breyer isn't all that convinced that what Jones was proposing to do (burn the Korans) is all that protected under the 1st Amendment. Following is the conversation between Justice Breyer and George Stephanopoulos:

Quote:
Last week we saw a Florida Pastor – with 30 members in his church – threaten to burn Korans which lead to riots and killings in Afghanistan. We also saw Democrats and Republicans alike assume that Pastor Jones had a Constitutional right to burn those Korans. But Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer told me on "GMA" that he's not prepared to conclude that -- in the internet age -- the First Amendment condones Koran burning.

“Holmes said it doesn’t mean you can shout 'fire' in a crowded theater,” Breyer told me. “Well, what is it? Why? Because people will be trampled to death. And what is the crowded theater today? What is the being trampled to death?”

Last week President Obama told me that Pastor Jones could be cited for public burning – but that was “the extent of the laws that we have available to us.” Rep. John Boehner said on "GMA" that “just because you have a right to do something in America does not mean it is the right thing to do.”

For Breyer, that right is not a foregone conclusion.

“It will be answered over time in a series of cases which force people to think carefully. That’s the virtue of cases,” Breyer told me. “And not just cases. Cases produce briefs, briefs produce thought. Arguments are made. The judges sit back and think. And most importantly, when they decide, they have to write an opinion, and that opinion has to be based on reason. It isn’t a fake.”

Breyer, the author of “Making Our Democracy Work,” told me it’s a “rickety system” -- but it’s worked “fairly well” for a long time.
failures art
 
  2  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 06:06 pm
@Irishk,
That's pretty complex, it might not be that complex at all. Remember, Terry Jones choice of words was to "declare war" on Islam. If his symbolic speech comes with subtitles, they read "bring conflict." I still think that he hasn't crossed the line into shouting fire in a theater yet. I am curious as to where that line should be drawn, because I think that people like Mr. Jones very specifically want commotion in the theater.

A
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hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 06:13 pm
@failures art,
Quote:
That's pretty complex, it might not be that complex at all. Remember, Terry Jones choice of words was to "declare war" on Islam. If his symbolic speech comes with subtitles, they read "bring conflict." I still think that he hasn't crossed the line into shouting fire in a theater yet. I am curious as to where that line should be drawn, because I think that people like Mr. Jones very specifically want commotion in the theater
He is an old guy and a lot of people know him, it should be pretty easy to get a line on him. From what little I have seen it sounds like he is known as a flashy true believer, which if true would mean that he is also a guy who's personal ethics would not allow him to make trouble for personal profit.
0 Replies
 
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 07:11 pm
@failures art,
failures art wrote:
That's pretty complex, it might not be that complex at all. Remember, Terry Jones choice of words was to "declare war" on Islam. If his symbolic speech comes with subtitles, they read "bring conflict." I still think that he hasn't crossed the line into shouting fire in a theater yet. I am curious as to where that line should be drawn, because I think that people like Mr. Jones very specifically want commotion in the theater.


There isn't a whole lot of context to go on, but at first glance I have to say I was a little surprised. I had to read it a few times, and I'm still not sure what he meant by 'in the internet age'. So my initial interpretation was that he is saying if the burning of a Koran incites violence (when he asks, "And what is the crowded theater today? What is the being trampled to death?”) then that is similar to shouting 'fire!' in a crowded theater. Which is legal, as long as there really is a fire.

Then, I thought, well, if you can't burn a Koran under the freedom of speech amendment, then you can't burn an American flag either. But really, if I'm reading Breyer's message correctly, one could still burn the flag as long as there was no incitement to violence. So, the Koran would be protected, but the flag wouldn't.

After reading it a third time, I'm going to admit I have no idea what he means. I guess if there's a pending case on the matter, we'll know soon enough. Interesting, though.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 07:15 pm
@Irishk,
Rather than comparing the US flag to the Koran, I would compare it to the bible. What kind of response will that bring if someone said he's going to burn the bible, because all christians are evil?
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 07:22 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I used the flag because it's often cited when referring to free speech issues. But, wouldn't any revered symbol work? We didn't see much reaction to the Piss Christ art exhibit (putting a crucifix in a jar of urine), but there was a lot of reaction (and some of it violent) to the Mohammad cartoon drawings. So, if Justice Breyer is saying that there's no first amendment right to an act if that act results in violence, then is he saying only certain symbolic works would be protected? That's actually my question.

Quote:
“Holmes said it doesn’t mean you can shout 'fire' in a crowded theater,” Breyer told me. “Well, what is it? Why? Because people will be trampled to death. And what is the crowded theater today? What is the being trampled to death?”
0 Replies
 
thack45
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 07:35 pm
@Irishk,
Irishk wrote:

I actually wouldn't mind if he just slithered off into obscurity and we never heard from him again. Probably won't happen, though.
Has he not burned his book yet? I don't follow the news.
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 07:49 pm
@thack45,
The last I heard he told several news agencies that he would not be burning any Korans nor does he have any future plans of doing so. Hopefully, he'll keep his word.
thack45
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 08:10 pm
@Irishk,
Then his descent into obscurity is relative.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 08:46 pm
@failures art,
failures art wrote:
I never said you were denying people rights. I was referring to Mr. Jones, who is.


He is doing no such thing. All he did was attempt to exercise his FREE SPEECH rights.




failures art wrote:
Your moral equivocation between a directly and aggressive provocation to all Muslims (burning Korans) with the completely unoffensive building of a community center is stupid.


No it isn't.

And your characterization of the location of the site as unoffensive is disingenuous. You may not be offended by it, but you know very well that it is extremely hurtful to a lot of people.




failures art wrote:
Stupid comments RE: American stuff at Hiroshima ground zero and Japanese stuff at Pearl Harbor have only served to embarrass you by revealing the shallow depth of understanding you have on this.


Lying about me won't change the fact that the proposed location of this mosque is hurtful to many people.

It is just a childish reaction you have when you run out of arguments.
Rockhead
 
  2  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 08:50 pm
sorry, that should read...

"but you know very well that it is extremely hurtful to a lot of very misinformed people."

and mebbe you could loan him a childish argument or two, you seem to have plenty...
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 08:50 pm
@Irishk,
Irishk wrote:
I actually wouldn't mind if he just slithered off into obscurity and we never heard from him again. Probably won't happen, though.

Also, I just read that Supreme Court Justice Steven Breyer isn't all that convinced that what Jones was proposing to do (burn the Korans) is all that protected under the 1st Amendment. Following is the conversation between Justice Breyer and George Stephanopoulos:

Quote:
Last week we saw a Florida Pastor – with 30 members in his church – threaten to burn Korans which lead to riots and killings in Afghanistan. We also saw Democrats and Republicans alike assume that Pastor Jones had a Constitutional right to burn those Korans. But Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer told me on "GMA" that he's not prepared to conclude that -- in the internet age -- the First Amendment condones Koran burning.

“Holmes said it doesn’t mean you can shout 'fire' in a crowded theater,” Breyer told me. “Well, what is it? Why? Because people will be trampled to death. And what is the crowded theater today? What is the being trampled to death?”

Last week President Obama told me that Pastor Jones could be cited for public burning – but that was “the extent of the laws that we have available to us.” Rep. John Boehner said on "GMA" that “just because you have a right to do something in America does not mean it is the right thing to do.”

For Breyer, that right is not a foregone conclusion.

“It will be answered over time in a series of cases which force people to think carefully. That’s the virtue of cases,” Breyer told me. “And not just cases. Cases produce briefs, briefs produce thought. Arguments are made. The judges sit back and think. And most importantly, when they decide, they have to write an opinion, and that opinion has to be based on reason. It isn’t a fake.”

Breyer, the author of “Making Our Democracy Work,” told me it’s a “rickety system” -- but it’s worked “fairly well” for a long time.


Wow. I never knew Breyer was a freedom hater.

So all we gotta do if we oppose any speech is react violently to it, and the government will then ban the speech as incitement?

I doubt any other justices will go along with his absurd thinking.

Or is it only Muslims who get to curtail free speech by being violent?
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 08:53 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
Rather than comparing the US flag to the Koran, I would compare it to the bible. What kind of response will that bring if someone said he's going to burn the bible, because all christians are evil?


I've intentionally flushed a Bible down a toilet.

I can't abide the King James translation, and some Bible pusher insisted on giving me the thing. I told him what I thought of that translation and what I'd do if he insisted on giving me the Bible. And then I kept my word.

It was a pocket-sized New Testament, and one of those jet-powered toilets in a public building. It shot right down.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 08:57 pm
@oralloy,
You must do that in a public place after you've announced your intentions.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 08:58 pm
@Rockhead,
Rockhead wrote:
sorry, that should read...

"but you know very well that it is extremely hurtful to a lot of very misinformed people."


No it shouldn't.

The fact that you disagree with them does not in any way make them misinformed.

And if you and that imam feel like being callous to their feelings, I predict many burned Korans in the near future.




Rockhead wrote:
and mebbe you could loan him a childish argument or two, you seem to have plenty...


Nope. All the childish arguments are coming from you freedom haters.
Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 08:59 pm
@oralloy,
party on, silly ass tea dude...
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 08:59 pm
@oralloy,
oroll wrote:
Quote:
And if you and that imam feel like being callous to their feelings, I predict many burned Korans in the near future.


Even after we were warned about the danger that poses to our soldiers in Afghanistan?

Real bright people.
 

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