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How do you see the burning of Holy Koran by pastor Terry Jones

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 01:57 pm
@oralloy,
Yes, you have. You use the word "insensitive" to take precedence over our laws. You want Muslims to comply with people's feelings, not our laws.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 02:14 pm
@dyslexia,
dyslexia wrote:
oralloy wrote:
But I think the location of the mosque is about as insensitive as flag/Koran burning.


many people (for whatever reason agree with you and many people don't. That's quite simply an example of different opinions.


It is true that only some people are offended by this. However, this imam should recognize that building the mosque in a location that makes it painful to so many people is going to doom any goals he has of being a moderate devoted to interfaith understanding.

I recall that some Native Americans used to use the swastika (before the Nazis were around to use it) as a symbol of healing or peace or something.

After WWII, they did not stubbornly keep using it while insisting that people recognize that they were not using it in the way that the Nazis did. Instead they announced that the Nazis had poisoned the symbol forever and they would never use it again.

This situation is not quite the same, but the fact remains that this imam faces a similar choice between recognizing that something has been poisoned by someone else's evil, or stubbornly immersing himself in that evil and tainting himself with it.
Pemerson
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 02:19 pm
For heaven's sake, the man (pastor) said he would not hold the burning books event. Why don't we just believe him? Americans should cease their panic everytime someone wants some attention.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 02:21 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
Yes, you have.


No I haven't.



cicerone imposter wrote:
You use the word "insensitive" to take precedence over our laws.


I've said nothing about taking precedence over any laws.



cicerone imposter wrote:
You want Muslims to comply with people's feelings, not our laws.


I've said nothing about not complying with our laws.

They will either comply with people's feelings or they will cause pain in a lot of people and doom their hopes of being accepted as interfaith moderates.
0 Replies
 
djjd62
 
  4  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 02:21 pm
as i've said before, the really despicable thing i see in the ground zero spectacle is the lack of any decent memorial to the victims as the US heads into the tenth year after the attacks, if something had been done with the site by now, i don't think the outrage over the mosque would be as great, i think its guilt as much as anything
Pemerson
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 02:25 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:


I recall that some Native Americans used to use the swastika (before the Nazis were around to use it) as a symbol of healing or peace or something.

After WWII, they did not stubbornly keep using it while insisting that people recognize that they were not using it in the way that the Nazis did. Instead they announced that the Nazis had poisoned the symbol forever and they would never use it again.


You really should post some proof that such a thing was ever done by Native Americans
djjd62
 
  2  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 02:27 pm
@Pemerson,
The swastika shape was used by some Native Americans. It has been found in excavations of Mississippian-era sites in the Ohio and Mississippi River valleys. It is frequently used as a motif on objects associated with the Southeastern Ceremonial Complex(S.E.C.C.). It was also widely used by many southwestern tribes, most notably the Navajo. Among various tribes, the swastika carried different meanings. To the Hopi it represented the wandering Hopi clan; to the Navajo it was one symbol for a whirling log (tsil no'oli'), a sacred image representing a legend that was used in healing rituals (after learning of the Nazi association, the Navajo discontinued use of the symbol). A brightly colored First Nations saddle featuring swastika designs is on display at the Royal Saskatchewan Museum in Canada.
A swastika shape is a symbol in the culture of the Kuna people of Kuna Yala, Panama. In Kuna tradition, it symbolizes the octopus that created the world; its tentacles, pointing to the four cardinal points.

In February, 1925, the Kuna revolted vigorously against Panamanian suppression of their culture, and assumed autonomy in 1930; the flag they adopted at that time is based on the swastika shape, and remains the official flag of Kuna Yala. A number of variations on the flag have been used over the years: red top and bottom bands instead of orange were previously used, and in 1942 a ring (representing the traditional Kuna nose-ring) was added to the center of the flag to distance it from the symbol of the Nazi party
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 02:30 pm
@Pemerson,
The reverse German swastika was also used by buddhists long before Nazism was established.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 02:43 pm
@djjd62,
It is also a holy symbol in Jainism - a religion devoted to non-violence towards all living things.
0 Replies
 
Pemerson
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 02:51 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I know that there is a spiritual symbol of old that is similar to the Swastika. But, it has softly swirling and thinner lines instead of the ugly squared off thing you are talking about. I do recall reading at one time that Hitler did change this particular symbol to come up with the Swastika.
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 02:55 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

failures art wrote:
oralloy wrote:
But I think the location of the mosque is about as insensitive as flag/Koran burning.


Simply put, they aren't even compareable.

Nobody can force you to be sensible or rational so you're free to be as irrational as you wish.

A
R
T


If anything, the location of the mosque is *more* offensive than Koran/flag burning.

What if we opened a museum glorifying the A-bomb in downtown Hiroshima? That would be highly comparable to this proposed mosque.

Except that Park51 doesn't glorify 9/11. In fact, quite contrary, it will have a memorial to the victims. So tell me, would an American memorial to pay respect to the victims of the atom bombs be insensitive?

I've been to Hiroshima ground zero and their is a beautiful peace park visited by people of all nations every year. I'm fairly positive that some of the funding for the park comes from American orgs.

Now what, enemy of facts? Got any other ironic comments to choke on?

A
R
T
Pemerson
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 03:01 pm
@djjd62,
djjd62 wrote:

I don't think a whirling motion could be symbolized from the swastika
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 03:14 pm
@Pemerson,
image from the wiki article on the swastiki
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Native_American_basketball_team_crop.jpg
Chilocco Indian Agricultural School basketball team in 1909
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilocco_Indian_Agricultural_School
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 03:54 pm
@djjd62,
djjd62 wrote:
to the Navajo it was one symbol for a whirling log (tsil no'oli'), a sacred image representing a legend that was used in healing rituals (after learning of the Nazi association, the Navajo discontinued use of the symbol).


That is likely the disavowal that I recall.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 03:56 pm
@failures art,
failures art wrote:
Now what, enemy of facts? Got any other ironic comments to choke on?


Lying about me will not change the fact that building a mosque in that location is highly insensitive and hurtful. If this place has the goal of fostering tolerance and understanding, then building it in this location will be completely self-defeating.

And if they build it there they better get used to people burning Korans in protest.
JPB
 
  3  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 04:03 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

And if they build it there they better get used to people burning Korans in protest.


Because some Americans have this insatiable need to demonstrate over and over again just how ignorant and myopic they are. Unfortunately, not everyone in the Muslim world understands that all (most) Americans aren't ignorant and myopic. Any more than every American understanding that all (most) Muslims aren't terrorists. And so we have it. Americans and Muslims become defined by the extremists of both elements. Let the killing fields begin.
failures art
 
  2  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 04:09 pm
@oralloy,
It's an election year, some idiot would find an excuse to burn a Koran. American Muslims aren't stupid, I'm sure they expected the woodwork to leak out some idiots. They can probably set their wrist watches by it.

Let's face it, people would find a reason to be upset if they had chose to build a playground or a fitness club with an interfaith chapel....

Wait a second...

A
R
Tell me how deep you wish to dig yourself here. Usually 6ft is the norm, but you seem he'll bent o. Breaching the bedrock of reason.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 04:43 pm
@JPB,
That, I would love to see. Both groups of ignorant followers battling it to the death.
0 Replies
 
Pemerson
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 05:02 pm
@djjd62,
djjd62 wrote:

image from the wiki article on the swastiki
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Native_American_basketball_team_crop.jpg
Chilocco Indian Agricultural School basketball team in 1909
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilocco_Indian_Agricultural_School

What in the world is that, a mission school? 1909?
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2010 05:04 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:
oralloy wrote:
And if they build it there they better get used to people burning Korans in protest.


Because some Americans have this insatiable need to demonstrate over and over again just how ignorant and myopic they are.


I'm curious, do you think everyone who burns an American flag to protest something is ignorant and myopic?

Sounds pretty hypocritical if you don't.
 

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