A thought on capitalism

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There is no single system that can govern our affairs perfectly. The best that can be hoped for with any system is that we can evolve within its confines to the point where we realize that we need a better system.

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Type: Discussion • Score: 10 • Views: 9,418 • Replies: 121

[+3] - cicerone imposter - 09/09/2010I'm not sure what you mean by "pure capitalism," but human greed without regulation will destroy the benefits inherent in capitalism.
[+3] - north - 09/19/2010[quote="Cyracuz"] There is no single system that can govern our affairs perfectly. The best that can be hoped for with any system is that we can evolve within its confines to the point...
[+3] - Pemerson - 09/22/2010[quote="Cyracuz"] There is no way to say that capitalism works fine in one place and not so fine in another. It's the same capitalism, and the reason it works fine in the US is that it...

@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

There is no single system that can govern our affairs perfectly. The best that can be hoped for with any system is that we can evolve within its confines to the point where we realize that we need a better system.

I agree. Capitalism will cease to be the better system in the day we invent an unbiased supercomputer to administrate our resources for us. I think so, at least. Fears of the computer being hacked or saboted may hold that idea back, as well as diverging opinions of how it should hand out stuff.

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@manored,

Maybe it doesn't need a computer. Maybe it needs a profound change in beliefs in all of us. Today the belief that it is right that we should apply ourselves to benefit first and foremost ourselves is practically universally accepted. This is a way of life that animals are bound to. They have no choice. We do, and I think that we can do alot better than supply and demand.

Capitalism is a monster with only mouth and belly. It doesn't have a conscience or a soul.

We keep arguing that we need the social functions of religion to prevent our science from becoming something that will kill us.
But capitalism is such a thing. It has neither conscience nor mercy, two ideals that are deeply valued by everything that wants to live.

It makes me laugh that people live in this world, and are afraid to go to hell...

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@manored,

manored wrote:

I agree. Capitalism will cease to be the better system in the day we invent an unbiased supercomputer to administrate our resources for us. I think so, at least. Fears of the computer being hacked or saboted may hold that idea back, as well as diverging opinions of how it should hand out stuff.

Hi manored! Hope you're doing well. I think the fuel that a society runs on is the same feeling a child has playing... coming up with crazy schemes and bringing them to life. So the computer should be programmed to protect and reinforce that.

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@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

There is no single system that can govern our affairs perfectly. The best that can be hoped for with any system is that we can evolve within its confines to the point where we realize that we need a better system.

Some problems here:

1. What type of system are we talking about here? An economic or political system? Or perhaps both?

2. You need to define what Capitalism is. Trust me on this; not everyone has the same definition (or the right one for that matter).

3. Say a system evolves to its peak. At what point can we say, "this system has evolved to its peak because we have evolved." and discard it for a new one? Are we implying that a system will become another one? And if so, how is it that a system can remain the same and yet not be the same (heading towards another system). Does it not have to become, well, that other system? (I will also apply this to humans as well as you seem to do so in your assertion.).

4. "There is no system that can govern our affairs perfectly". This is simply begging the question: how do you know that every system we try will not be sufficient in governing our affairs? What has led you to this? Have you tried out every system?

From this, after laying the foundation, can we begin in a worthwhile discussion... If there is anything at all to be discussed.

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@Ding an Sich,

Ding an Sich wrote:

4. "There is no system that can govern our affairs perfectly". This is simply begging the question: how do you know that every system we try will not be sufficient in governing our affairs? What has led you to this? Have you tried out every system?

Is there a difference between sufficient and perfect? I thought he meant: we're never going to have Utopia.

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@Cyracuz,

What you say, I believe, is true. Ideas come first before they are implemented in one form or another. There will never be any strict form of economics, because society's economic processes are established. Change comes slowly, and humans have not created anything close to a perfect economic system. It will always be as a ratio between capitalism and socialism, but capitalism must always take on the majority participation to improve the standard of living and continue the improvements in technology. Competition must be inherent for any economic system to grow. How government intrudes into economic processes is also important. They can hinder it or help it to grow.

Somewhere in this garbled message is the answer.

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@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

There is no single system that can govern our affairs perfectly.

If one ever appears and successfuly convinces that it can perfectly govern... then we are in trouble.

Cyracuz wrote:

The best that can be hoped for with any system is that we can evolve within its confines to the point where we realize that we need a better system.

This assumes that one would want a "system" to govern them. I do not hope that we will all 'come to our senses' - just to be governed in some different way.

1 Reply

@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

Maybe it doesn't need a computer. Maybe it needs a profound change in beliefs in all of us. Today the belief that it is right that we should apply ourselves to benefit first and foremost ourselves is practically universally accepted. This is a way of life that animals are bound to. They have no choice. We do, and I think that we can do alot better than supply and demand.

I agree a change of beliefs is necessary, but we do need a computer, or some other power beyond human capacity. Our economy has grown too complex to be administrated by human minds, to change out of capitalism to a nonself-regulating system we will need to build computers capable of helping us deal with all those big numbers and the complex relations between then.

Arjuna wrote:

Hi manored! Hope you're doing well. I think the fuel that a society runs on is the same feeling a child has playing... coming up with crazy schemes and bringing them to life. So the computer should be programmed to protect and reinforce that.

Who needs houses then you have a cosmic elevator? =)

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@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

There is no single system that can govern our affairs perfectly. The best that can be hoped for with any system is that we can evolve within its confines to the point where we realize that we need a better system.

Pure capitalism is the economic equivalent of biological evolution. It's a "perfect" self regulating system. The problem is that we're not willing to accept the pain that can come with it. Biological evolution implies endless change and inevitable extinctions. Economic evolution requires the same, but we don't like that, so we are forced to put restrictions on it to moderate the pain.

The result *should* be a modified system in which the capitalistic engine drives a system which is bounded by rules which prevent unacceptable pain. Unfortunately the idea of what is "unacceptable" is subjective (some people are willing to put up with more pain than others) and the *rules* are corruptible so we haven't been able to build an efficient and balanced framework yet.

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@rosborne979,

That's the general view in politics too. We accept the belief that people are not capable of justice and mercy, and proceed to make a fool proof system that doesn't rely on the moral quality of anyone.
Perhaps capitalism is the economic equivalent of biological evolution, biological evolution is also without regard for human values like justice and mercy. It is our privilige as a species to have evolved to a point where we have the choice to embrace these ideals and live by them.
Instead we have installed a system to govern our lives that serves to deprive us of the oportunity to live by higher human values.
You can chose to seek a way with less or no pain. Or you can accept that there is pain and do your best to see that you get the gain and someone else gets the pain. But that is how animals live.

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@rosborne979,

I'm not sure what you mean by "pure capitalism," but human greed without regulation will destroy the benefits inherent in capitalism.

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@cicerone imposter,

Actually I think that the only people who could make communism work would be capitalists. The only goal they need to change is "make profit for yourself" to "make profit for everyone", and capitalism would be flawless communism. Wink

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@Cyracuz,

Communism has already shown that it does not work - be it in Russia, China, or Cuba. Capitalism is necessary to provide the motivation for people to advance economically; to create better products and services, and to reap the rewards.

A good education and working hard are necessary components for economic success. Our educational system is now failing us, because they teach to pass standardized tests at the sacrifice of creativity and innovation. It's a fact that not all children learn at the same pace nor have the same interests. Standardized tests fails them all.

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@cicerone imposter,

I don't want to argue agains that.
But perhaps if we view the world as one global community we can claim that the effects of capitalism, in terms of the conditions it creates for all involved parties, are no more desirable than the effects communism have proven to produce.
We would have to see ourselves as part of the ruling elite for such a comparison I think. But if we were to extend the social responsibility that the developed nations have to their citizens to include all people in the whole world we could argue that we are neglecting our responsibilities.
And why should we not extend the social responsibilities to everyone everywhere, when capitalism governs everyone, everywhere?

Capitalism is as merciless as nature itself, and for it to succeed as a fair system it has to be used with responsibility and integrity. As it is now capitalism is a means to bypass every moral obligation nature has bred into us and behave like predators among our own kind without rebuke.

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@Cyracuz,

Simply because we cannot run all the governments of the world with our ideals.
Our country represents only five percent of the world's population. It's logistically impossible to impose our will on the rest of the world.

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@cicerone imposter,

Do you have a number for how much of the world's wealth that 5% enjoys?

I think the number on a global scale is around 20% of the population controlling 80% of the worlds recources. If it was not logistically impossible to create that imbalance (imperialism) it is not logistically impossible to undo it.

The problem is will to do it. We who have the power to do it are discouraged by the fact that if we were to remove all the restrictions that serve to keep the imbalance we would perhaps suffer a drop in luxury and over consumption, and we are selfish enough that this is sufficient reason to rationalize and ignore the whole global situation.

You are an atheist, you object against a system that ruled us in the past on the grounds that there are too many inconsistencies in it to make sense to you, and that you have to rationalize too many lies to believe in it.
That is my relationship with capitalism, the system that rules us now. But I know it's not the system, it's how we have used it. But isn't that a fundamental flaw in the system?

1 Reply

@Cyracuz,

It's my personal belief that top 5% owns about 80% (if not more) of the world's wealth; not 20%.

There are now more than 6.6 billion people on this planet. 5% is about 300 million people. I believe they own more than 80% of the world's wealth.

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@cicerone imposter,

Can we conclude that in sheer scale capitalism rapes more people than communism ever has?
To argue against communism that it has too much liability to be abused by a ruling elite to ever function and then point to capitalism as the better alternative is an inconsistency I have problems rationalizing.

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@Cyracuz,

I will not go that far; even in today's capitalism and in our present Great Recession, many are still making a decent living which still represents the majority. The US's 25% unemployment rate which includes the long-term unemployed who gave up looking for jobs, people still enjoy eating out at restaurants, going on vacation, and buying their electronic toys.

Capitalism is what keeps us motivated to improve our lives.

1 Reply

A thought on capitalism

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