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A thought on capitalism

 
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 02:32 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Capitalism affects everyone on the planet. And the cold fact is that in terms of numbers, capitalism hurts more people than it helps.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 02:33 pm
@Cyracuz,
Not true; tyrannical governments hurt their own people more than capitalism ever will.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 02:39 pm
@cicerone imposter,
More people are exploited by the principals of capitalism governing the distribution of resources than benefit from it.
It's not considered exploitation, it's considered good business to get the best bargain you can even regardless of what the seller needs to survive.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 02:45 pm
@Cyracuz,
Not true; capitalism has improved our lives through research, and development of products and services. Mass production of products and services of capitalism has made them available to the general population at cheaper prices.
Without capitalism, no government will survive to provide the benefits associated with education, infrastructure, safety, defense, and other forms of benefits provided by governments.

0 Replies
 
manored
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 05:48 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

Capitalism affects everyone on the planet. And the cold fact is that in terms of numbers, capitalism hurts more people than it helps.
I think this is too subjective to discuss, we dont even have an viable alternative to compare to. Its like saying that the human incapacity of breathing underwater hurts more people than it helps (Assuming that being able to breath underwater would incur in biologic costs, such as maybe less overall pulmonar capacity).

Cyracuz wrote:

Actually I think that the only people who could make communism work would be capitalists. The only goal they need to change is "make profit for yourself" to "make profit for everyone", and capitalism would be flawless communism. Wink
If being selfless was that easy wars and povery would be a thing of the past. Actually, they would probaly never have existed =)

cicerone imposter wrote:

A good education and working hard are necessary components for economic success. Our educational system is now failing us, because they teach to pass standardized tests at the sacrifice of creativity and innovation. It's a fact that not all children learn at the same pace nor have the same interests. Standardized tests fails them all.
I agree. Except for the part of the hard work, I think you can avoid hard work with a sufficiently good idea. But, off course, hard work will multiply the results of the sufficiently good idea.

Cyracuz wrote:

Capitalism is as merciless as nature itself, and for it to succeed as a fair system it has to be used with responsibility and integrity. As it is now capitalism is a means to bypass every moral obligation nature has bred into us and behave like predators among our own kind without rebuke.
I wouldnt go that far, its regulated quite a lot as far as I can tell. At least, in my country, there are so many and incovenient larbor laws that you fell sorry for the employer, not the employee =)

Cyracuz wrote:

Can we conclude that in sheer scale capitalism rapes more people than communism ever has?
To argue against communism that it has too much liability to be abused by a ruling elite to ever function and then point to capitalism as the better alternative is an inconsistency I have problems rationalizing.
Communism didnt have as much opportunities. Besides, at least in capitalism everyone sees the ruling elite is there. In communism they try to hide it.

Thinking about it, it feels as though that the problem behind capitalism may be that there is little to none regulation on how much a single person may own. I mean, in order to be considered a successful system capitalism must spare to all human beings enough resources to at least live. However, that means that each human being must have a maximum limit based on how many resources are avaible and human beings are present. Nowadays there are almost no such limits, or they are set too high. I mean, it probaly wouldnt take too many Bill Gates to starve the rest of the world to death.

I think strategy games are a good analogy for this. In then, defeating your enemy usually translates into conquering more resources and thus gaining more resources to defeat your enemy even more. This eventually leads to the game's end where one side wins. But, in real life, we dont want the game to "end". We want it to last forever, so there must be a system that prevent any team from conquering too many resources.

I think the simplest solution is to simply put heavy taxes on the rich, what is already done, but maybe not enough =)

Or maybe that money, which goes to the government, is not properly spent afterwards.

0 Replies
 
Arjuna
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 06:01 pm
@thack45,
thack45 wrote:

If one ever appears and successfuly convinces that it can perfectly govern... then we are in trouble.
True.
thack45 wrote:

Cyracuz wrote:
The best that can be hoped for with any system is that we can evolve within its confines to the point where we realize that we need a better system.
This assumes that one would want a "system" to govern them. I do not hope that we will all 'come to our senses' - just to be governed in some different way.
Don't we want governance in order to express our full potential? Having a system is a way to avoid the eventual disintegration that happens in monarchy.
0 Replies
 
Arjuna
 
  2  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 06:10 pm
@rosborne979,
rosborne979 wrote:


The result *should* be a modified system in which the capitalistic engine drives a system which is bounded by rules which prevent unacceptable pain. Unfortunately the idea of what is "unacceptable" is subjective (some people are willing to put up with more pain than others) and the *rules* are corruptible so we haven't been able to build an efficient and balanced framework yet.
A capitalist economy will occasionally fall off the tracks into a ditch. During these times regulations that are socialist in character are adopted. I don't think it's so much to relieve pain, but more of a crap hitting the fan type of thing. A few decades later, people will forget and undo the regulations and set the stage for the next disaster.
0 Replies
 
Berendey
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Sep, 2010 03:46 am
@Cyracuz,
The choice of governing system depends on the level of our affairs and wellfare in average. Marx called this economical base as a "productive forses".
The State is a bureaucratic system that controls the macroeconomic issues.
This is its distinguishing feature of the historically prior management functions. But the previous management practices (ideological, representative, authoritative supreme) had little to deal with private property. Bureaucratic State in the early stages of existence (ancient Sumer, etc.) also exercised direct control of economic subjects (the temple households and communities).
The interests of private property began to influence the tasks of government even during antiquity.
This means that the abolition of private property by Communists meant the elimination of not only pure capitalist, but the feudal and ancient methods of management (so-called "industrial relations" in the Marxist literature), too. In fact, in the Soviet Union were apparent mechanisms of antique (more clearly) and feudal (less obviously) "industrial relations". This means that the institution of private property existed in the "shadows ", ie informally and very limited.

Therefore, comparison of capitalism and communism "- is not a simple task. To simplify this and other problems of analysis of the historical places of the management kinds, I made "periodic system of industrial relations" (currently only in Russian) ... Smile
HexHammer
 
  2  
Reply Sun 19 Sep, 2010 05:41 am
@manored,
manored wrote:

Cyracuz wrote:

There is no single system that can govern our affairs perfectly. The best that can be hoped for with any system is that we can evolve within its confines to the point where we realize that we need a better system.
I agree. Capitalism will cease to be the better system in the day we invent an unbiased supercomputer to administrate our resources for us. I think so, at least. Fears of the computer being hacked or saboted may hold that idea back, as well as diverging opinions of how it should hand out stuff.
manored, I have to agree, already the first step has been made in Holland, a computer system controls the floodgates "BOSS" ..think it stands for Bridge Operating Secure System, which already have proven it's worth by closing the gates at precisely the designated flood-lvl, and not 2% before or too late, where humans may react too fast or too slow, implicating importaint shipping traffic or flood some areas in low lands.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Sep, 2010 06:26 am
@Berendey,
Our choice of governing system depends on what we believe a human being is and should be.
But capitalism isn't a governing system. It cannot govern anything, it is void of morality and ideological guidance.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Sep, 2010 06:33 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:
There is no single system that can govern our affairs perfectly.
The best that can be hoped for with any system is that we can
evolve within its confines to the point where we realize that we need a better system.
The single system governs BEST
which governs LEAST.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Sep, 2010 06:34 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:
Our choice of governing system depends on what we believe a human being is and should be.
But capitalism isn't a governing system. It cannot govern anything, it is void of morality and ideological guidance.
It is the laws of nature; supply n demand.





David
0 Replies
 
manored
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Sep, 2010 11:29 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Cyracuz wrote:

Our choice of governing system depends on what we believe a human being is and should be.
But capitalism isn't a governing system. It cannot govern anything, it is void of morality and ideological guidance.
Well, yes. Its an economic system, governing is not its purpose. Thats why we have governments in addition to capitalism.

OmSigDAVID wrote:

The single system governs BEST
which governs LEAST.
Depends... of the honesty and the intelligence of the population. There are two kinds of laws: Laws made to protect people from each other, and laws made to protect people from their own stupidity =)
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Sun 19 Sep, 2010 06:55 pm
@manored,
Cyracuz wrote:
Our choice of governing system depends on what we believe a human being is and should be.
But capitalism isn't a governing system. It cannot govern anything, it is void of morality and ideological guidance.
Well, yes. Its an economic system, governing is not its purpose. Thats why we have governments in addition to capitalism.

OmSigDAVID wrote:
The single system governs BEST
which governs LEAST.
manored wrote:
Depends... of the honesty and the intelligence of the population.
There are two kinds of laws:
Laws made to protect people from each other, and laws made to protect people from their own stupidity =)
The latter category of laws are unconstitutional USURPATIONS of power that no government was ever granted.

The Founders of government NEVER said:
" I need to create government because I am so STUPID
that I need my creation to lead me thru life and to defend me
from my own mental inadequacy." That did NOT happen.

Governments were brought into existence to defend from
alien raids and to facilitate vengeance upon local malefactors.





David
north
 
  3  
Reply Sun 19 Sep, 2010 07:19 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

There is no single system that can govern our affairs perfectly. The best that can be hoped for with any system is that we can evolve within its confines to the point where we realize that we need a better system.


the combination of capitalism and socialism works the best

finding the balance between the two is the challenge
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Sep, 2010 07:39 pm

I wish that I had unlimited political power only for so long
as it woud take to:

1. Eliminate all laws controlling what citizens can freely ingest
if thay wanna (i.e., repeal all anti-drug laws) and all other "vice" laws.
Every citizen is rightfully free to make his own mistakes,
if thay do not violate the rights of his fellow citizens.



2. Eliminate all government control or taxation of civilian possession of guns.

3. Authorize concurrent federal and State jurisdiction
to BANISH feloniously violent recidivists
and to remove them from the North American Continent.

4. Enact fonetic spelling

Those acts woud approach almost ENDING crime in America.
Thay 'd return America to what the Founders envisioned.





David
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Sep, 2010 09:47 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Your wish is unrealistic - as with most of your posts. You give Mensa a bad name.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Sep, 2010 10:30 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
Your wish is unrealistic - as with most of your posts. You give Mensa a bad name.
Your post is poorly reasoned.

Do u intend to commit hari-kari ?
0 Replies
 
Berendey
 
  2  
Reply Mon 20 Sep, 2010 04:31 am
@Cyracuz,
Thanks for the worth remark, Cyracuz.
The goverment and capitalism are not the same things. First of all they differs for their historical epoch of origin. Let us think simply, as ancient Greeks did:
Can the capitalism exist without goverment? No!
Can the goverment exist without capitalism? Yes! (but with poor economic effectiveness).
In the last case the ruling bureaucracy is a "associated owner" of "means of production" as Marx and his non-vulgar followers have considered. So, besides examination of controling properties of goverment and capitalism we ought to consider its as systems based on different "relations of production" (or "industrial relations").
By thinking this way, I composed "The table of relations of production" and found that it is has periodical properties!
Here is the fragment of it:
VII. Cultural period: (7.1) Family; (7.2) Hierarhy; (7.3) Democracy (7.4) Common sense.
VIII. Social period: (8.1) Intelligency; (8.2) Representation; (8.3) Central power (8.4) State bureaucracy.
IX. Private period: (9.1) Private property (Antiquity) (9.2) Private agreements (Feudalism) (9.3) Private job (Capitalism); (9.4) Private shares (Globalism).
The family values have oldest origin and are most vital priority for us (in average). But international corporations (Globalism) have most modern origin and biggest economical effect for humanity (in average).
The latest "relations of production" can't exist without basic principles of all more older ones.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Sep, 2010 11:07 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
Well, yes. Its an economic system, governing is not its purpose. Thats why we have governments in addition to capitalism.


But we don't. Nations have governments, but each nation doesn't have an economical system of it's own. All are just economies within the global capitalistic system. And out of the 100 largest economies in the world, as of 2005, 49 of them were nations while 51 of them were multinational corporations. On the global scale on which they operate there is no single government, there is only survival of the fittest, a brutal and unmerciful order risen from anarcy where the multinational corporations, who have no moral obligation to anyone of any nation, are on equal terms with the strongest nations of the world.

But the point is that I believe that it is the moral duty of everyone not to deprive another of anything they themselves would consider essential for living, and I find it troubling that the world is run by people who clearly do not hold to that belief.
 

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