25
   

Hey, Can A Woman "Ask To Get Raped"?

 
 
BillRM
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2010 07:17 pm
@failures art,
I know hard cases in the real criminal justice system do not matter only your unsupported claims matter...............
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2010 07:22 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:

I know hard cases in the real criminal justice system do not matter only your unsupported claims matter...............
When was the last time FART showed up with either facts or evidence in this thread? Been a LOOOONG time me thinks.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2010 07:29 pm
@Caroline,
Caroline, BillRM and Hawkeye clearly have served a purpose in this thread. Their postings offer abundant evidence of the kind of sexist thinking that creates a climate which fosters rapes and makes them difficult to prosecute, particularly date rapes. Can you imagine either of these two sitting on a jury at a rape trial? They illustrate just what a woman is up against when she has been raped, wants her report of the rape investigated seriously, and wants her rapist appropriately punished for his crime.

I started this thread with no particular agenda in mind. I had never even given extensive thought to the problem of rape before. I just happened to see that clever video ad from Scotland about whether a woman "asks to get raped" by what she is wearing. So, I started this thread, to ask that same sort of question. I had no idea what sort of discussion this would turn into.

Wow, has this thread turned into an eye opener and a learning experience for me. I've really educated myself by doing extensive reading as I posted in this this thread. I am now really aware of the history of rape, rape as a global problem, the rape laws of several different countries, and most of the state sexual offense laws in the U.S. On a daily basis I now just type "rape" into Google and check the "news", and those daily reports of rape incidents, or arrests, never fail to appall me, and many now involve young teens or very elderly women. I am now really aware of the problem of date rape and acquaintance rape and the difficulties of getting those rapists arrested and convicted. Rape continues to be a crime that evades punishment, and rapists tend to repeat their offenses and violations until they are finally caught. And interacting with the other intelligent and thoughtful people who have posted here (obviously that does not include Hawkeye and BillRM) has helped me clarify my own thinking, and discussing issues with them has helped to expand this topic in interesting directions. Like your input on the problem of binge drinking, which wasn't really mentioned in this thread before. We've covered a lot of ground in this thread.

So, if you want to hang around, just ignore Hawkeye and BillRM. You cannot reason with them. They are not open to a discussion of issues. Both harp repeatedly on what they see as male victimization as a result of the rape laws, completely ignoring the fact that women, of all ages, are being victimized by the crime of rape, and that it is an issue that affects all women, and should affect the men who love them. Listening to Hawkeye could turn any woman into a feminist, and most men into supporters of woman's rights. His attempts to convince people of his viewpoint have quite the opposite effect. He reminds everyone of what the problem is, and why we need those rape laws, and other laws that protect women's rights.

I hope you will hang around, or just keep an eye on this thread. Others are posting here, so there is opportunity to discuss a very serious issue on an appropriate level. Just ignore the two buffoons. Their main goal has been to derail this thread. They still haven't succeeded. The real issues are too important to let them get away with doing that. And that I've learned since starting this thread.

0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2010 07:33 pm
@BillRM,
You're wrong. Again.

The following is a table of rape conviction rates from the UK.
Quote:

England & Wales
5.29
Avon and Somerset
4.76
Bedfordshire
8.33
Cambridgeshire
1.75
Cheshire
6.44
Cleveland
7.75
Cumbria
12.79
Derbyshire
7.55
Devon and Cornwall
4.01
Dorset
3.66
Durham
9.18
Dyfed Powys
4.55
Essex
3.49
Gloucestershire
0.86
Greater Manchester
3.98
Gwent
6.48
Hampshire
2.98
Hertfordshire
6.95
Humberside
2.85
Kent
3.55
Lancashire
7.45
Leicestershire
3.85
Lincolnshire
3.06
Merseyside
5.58
Metropolitan Police (7)
4.88
Norfolk
5.13
North Wales
4.71
North Yorkshire
9.74
Northamptonshire
13.79
Northumbria
6.35
Nottinghamshire
4.91
South Wales
12.18
South Yorkshire
10.74
Staffordshire
5.33
Suffolk
1.60
Surrey
3.65
Sussex
3.35
Thames Valley
3.97
Warwickshire
3.41
West Mercia
6.20
West Midlands
6.19
West Yorkshire
8.7
Wiltshire
6.0

Now, if we assume that every single one of these cases was a solely based on he-said-she-said with no collaborative evidence, you'll see that your claim that women simply accuse men and they go to jail is false. Even with evidence, it's damn hard to get a conviction. You're completely backwards on this. If a woman reports and it's only her word, the chances of a conviction are insanely low.

hawkeye10 wrote:
When was the last time FART showed up with either facts or evidence in this thread? Been a LOOOONG time me thinks.

You're too damn busy posing as a victim to play attention.


A
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T
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2010 07:55 pm
@failures art,
Quote:
A misleading focus on the proportion of rape cases that result in conviction has left victims' needs neglected and stopped women coming forward, the author of a landmark government review said.

The independent report by Baroness Stern was commissioned by the government last year in response to ongoing concerns over the level of rape cases resulting in convictions. But in an interview with the Guardian, Stern said that while they remained important, the conviction rate was "not the be all and end all".


Hear Baroness Stern speak to Rachel Williams Link to this audio Stern suggested the figure of 14% – the estimated proportion of reported rapes that end in a conviction for that crime or another related offence – was "not dramatically low" compared to other crimes. Of the cases that get to court, 58% result in a conviction. Stern said that figure was a sign that the system was "working very hard" and was never going to be considerably higher under the current legal system.

"We have probably put so much emphasis on the criminal justice process ... that the actual needs of the human being who's suffered this appalling violation come second," she said. "What I've tried to suggest is that they should at least be equal." Better victim care would help improve the conviction rate because fewer people would drop out of the process, she added.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/mar/15/stern-review-rape-less-focus-convictions

FART: your stats dont take into account getting convicted of a lessor crime, so they are intentionally misleading. And As I have told you many times, if you want a better conviction rate then offer victims a better deal. You should also take seriously the very real problem of false claims, which gum up the system and makes all claims less likely to be believed.
BillRM
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2010 09:04 pm
@hawkeye10,
We do not know however how they conducted the one study I had posted seem rock solid and I would love to see a city of at least a million population be employed in a similar study for a far larger sample size.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2010 09:12 pm
At least among college students, binge drinking is definitely part of the problem when it comes to rape.

Quote:

Correlates of Rape While Intoxicated in a National Sample of College Women
By: Mohler-Kuo M, Dowdall GW ,, Koss MP and Wechsler H
In: Journal of Studies on Alcohol, 65, pp.37-45

Publisher: Center of Alcohol Studies, Rutgers University
Published: February 2004 .

Binge drinking among college students is a significant social problem, particularly in those situations where the risk of rape rises. Few studies provide detailed information on rapes in college women that occur when they are intoxicated. New research from the Harvard School of Public Health's Center for Alcohol Studies (CAS) indicates that about one in every 20 female U.S. college students is raped each year. More than 70 percent are raped while they are too intoxicated to give consent, the authors say. Researchers analyzed data drawn from three surveys at 119 colleges. The data were drawn from questions answered by approximately 24,000 female students.
http://www.rwjf.org/pr/product.jsp?id=14275


The present study indicates that alcohol use is a central
factor in most college rapes. Paradoxically, few rape preventive
interventions focus on alcohol use. Bachar and Koss
(2001) reviewed 15 university-based rape preventive interventions
conducted between 1994 and 1999. Only three
included references to alcohol use. Similarly, most of the
prevention programs that describe responsible drinking do
not emphasize sexual assault as a consequence of heavy
drinking (Abbey, 2002). The association of rape and intoxication
and use of illicit drugs suggests that substance
abuse prevention (dealing with potential perpetrators and
also with potential victims) should play an important role
in rape prevention, targeting in particular underage students.
Rape and alcohol abuse prevention efforts can benefit from
incorporating information about alcohol’s role in different
assault contexts (Ullman et al., 1999).

A large number of women have been raped while attending
college. College officials need to work on both the
primary prevention of rape as well as its secondary and
tertiary preventions that minimize its long-term damage to
victims. Among the outcomes of being raped is the risk of
a future victimization as well as of substance abuse
(Kilpatrick et al., 1997). Rape due to intoxication, the most
frequent type of rape in college, poses a difficult challenge
for prevention. Although efforts against the new “date rape
drugs” are necessary, alcohol remains the most widely used
date rape drug
, surpassing GHB and Rohypnol (Hindmarch
and Brinkmann, 1999).

College prevention programs must
give increased attention to educating the male student that
one of the first questions he must ask himself before initiating
sex with a woman is whether she is capable of giving
consent (Rozee and Koss, 2001). College men must be educated
for their own protection that intoxication is a stop
sign for sex (Abbey, 2002; Biden, 2000)
. College women
need to be warned not only about the loss of control through
heavy drinking but also about the extra dangers imposed in
situations where many people are drinking heavily. The
person who commits rape is, of course, responsible in both
the legal and the moral sense, and we must view rape from
that perspective.
For purposes of prevention, however, identifying
the factors that place women at increased vulnerability
to rape is also important.
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/cas/Documents/rapeintox/037-Mohler-Kuo.sep1.pdf


Addressing the issue of alcohol abuse among college women appears to be a necessary, but possibly neglected, aspect of dealing with rape prevention on campuses. It would also seem to be a significant health problem in its own right.

Because of the high percentage of rapes which occur when the victim is too intoxicated to legally consent, it would seem imperative that college men are educated regarding these facts, and that they clearly understand that intoxication is a stop sign for sex. Alcohol abuse among the males must also be addressed as a significant heath issue in its own right.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2010 09:14 pm
@BillRM,
Wow, I thought your 40% figure was kinda nuts, but maybe it is not

Quote:
Very little formal research has been conducted on the prevalence of false allegations of rape. One study looked at the 109 cases of forcible rape that were disposed of in one small midwestern town between 1978 and 1987 (Kanin, 1994). The given town was specifically selected for study because the police department used a uniquely objective and thorough protocol when investigating rape complaints. Among other procedural safeguards, officers did not have the discretion to drop rape investigations if they concluded the complaint was "suspect" or unfounded. Every rape accusation had to be thoroughly investigated and included offering a polygraph to both the accuser and the accused. Cases were only determined to be false if and when the accuser admitted that no rape occurred.

The researchers further investigated those cases that the police, through their investigation, had ultimately determined were "false" or fabricated. During the follow-up investigation, the complainants held fast to their assertion that their rape allegation had been true, despite being told they would face penalties for filing a false report. As a result, 41% of all of the forcible rape complaints were found to be false. To further this study, a similar analysis was conducted on all of the forcible rape complaints filed at two large midwestern public universities over a 3-year period. Here, where polygraphs were not offered as part of the investigatory procedure, it was found that 50% of the complaints were false.

Charles P. McDowell, a researcher in the United States Air Force Special Studies Division, studied the 1,218 reports of rape that were made between 1980 and 1984 on Air Force bases throughout the world (McDowell, 1985). Of those, 460 were found to be "proven" allegations either because the "overwhelming preponderance of the evidence" strongly supported the allegation or because there was a conviction in the case. Another 212 of the total reports were found to be "disproved" as the alleged victim convincingly admitted the complaint was a "hoax" at some point during the initial investigation. The researchers then investigated the 546 remaining or "unresolved" rape allegations including having the accusers submit to a polygraph. Twenty-seven percent (27%) of these complainants admitted they had fabricated their accusation just before taking the polygraph or right after they failed the test. (It should be noted that whenever there was any doubt, the unresolved case was re-classified as a "proven" rape.) Combining this 27% with the initial 212 "disproved" cases, it was determined that approximately 45% of the total rape allegations were false.

http://www.theforensicexaminer.com/archive/spring09/15/

I have also seen 60% rates of false allegations in the military, but I assume everyone will blow that off as men protecting men...but still.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2010 09:24 pm
I would like to think that judges overall are getting fed up with false rape allegations as then did with fake child abuse allegations in custody disputes, but I dont think we are quite there yet
Quote:
Jennifer Day, 35, made the claim against Andrew Saxby, who she met through a dating website, following a row in a case that cost £4,000 of taxpayers' money and 270 police man hours.

She was jailed at Basildon Crown Court in July this year after being convicted of perverting the course of justice by making a false complaint of rape.

Dismissing her appeal against sentence, Mr Justice Henriques, sitting in London with Mrs Justice Rafferty, said: "False complaints of rape necessarily impact upon the minds of jurors trying rape cases.

"Every time a defendant stands trial for rape, defence counsel necessarily point out to the jury that false allegations are made.

"Allegations such as this drive yet another nail into the conviction rate."

He said the two-year sentence was "well-measured" and warned: "An immediate custodial sentence is inevitable when a false allegation of rape is made."

It was an offence which "attacks the criminal justice system". Scarce police resources were also diverted and innocent victims faced a "terrifying allegation", he said.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/6468036/Prison-inevitable-for-false-rape-claims.html
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2010 09:58 pm
From the U.K.

Quote:
·
Rape: The Facts

“In no other crime is the victim subject to so much scrutiny during an investigation or at trial; nor is the potential for victims to be re-traumatised during these processes as high in any other crime.” (HMCPS & HMIC, 2007)

Available data suggests that nearly one in four women worldwide may experience sexual violence by an intimate partner in their lifetime (WHO, 2002).

· At least 47,000 adult women are raped every year in the UK (BCS 2001).

· Since the age of 16, 5% of women in the UK have been raped (BCS 2001).

· There are increasing numbers of young victims of rape aged under 20-years-old (Kelly, Lovett, and Regan, 2005).

· 40% of young people know girls whose boyfriends have coerced or pressurised them to have sex (EVAW, 2006).



Perpetrators

· The majority of perpetrators are known to the victim (Kelly, Lovett, and Regan, 2005).

· In 85.7% of recorded rape crimes the suspect was known to the victim or identified following investigation (HMCPS & HMIC, 2007).

· Women are most likely to be sexually attacked by men they know in some way, most often partners (32%) or acquaintances (22%) (AIUK 2007).

Reporting

· There has been a progressive increase in the number of rapes reported to the police for more than 20 years (HMCPS & HMIC, 2007):

o 2001/02: 9,734 rapes were reported

o 2003/04: 12,354 rapes were reported

o 2005/06: 13,712 rapes were reported

o The above figures represent an increase of 40.9%.

· Research suggests between 75-95% of rapes are never reported to the police (HMCPS & HMIC, 2007).

· 40% of those who suffered rape in the 2001 BCS had told no-one about it (OCJR, 2006).

· Overall, research suggests the rate of false allegations of rape are no higher than those of other crimes (Kelly, Lovett, and Regan, 2005).

· A recent study in the UK found 8% of cases reported to the police were designated ‘false’ reports. However, internal police rules specify that only cases where either there is a strong and credible admission by the complainants, or where there are strong evidential grounds, should be classified as ‘false’. Further investigation of this figure of 8% found that only 3% of cases designated false fell within the police categories of ‘probable’ and ‘possible’ false allegations (as opposed to additionally those classed as ‘uncertain’). (Kelly, Lovett, and Regan, 2005).

· There is an over-estimation of the scale of false allegations by police and prosecutors and subjective judgements are still being made about victims. This results in poor communication and loss of confidence between complainants and police (Kelly, Lovett, and Regan, 2005; HMCPS & HMIC, 2007).

· International research shows that, of the very small proportion of genuinely false allegations, in most cases there is no named offender (EVAW, 2007).



Law in the UK

· The Sexual Offences Act 2003

o Statutory definition of consent: a defendant is guilty if:

§ he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person with his penis,

§ the victim does not consent to the penetration, and

§ he does not reasonably believe that the victim consents.

o Definition of consent: “a person consents if he agrees by choice, and has the freedom and capacity to make that choice”.

· The Government has recently consulted on the need for changes to the current law, in ‘Convicting Rapists and Protecting Victims – Justice for Victims of Rape’. The results of this consultation have not yet been published.

Conviction

The term ‘conviction rate’ refers to the proportion of rapes reported to police that result in the alleged perpetrator being found guilty in a court of law.



·The reporting rate of rape is increasing, but the conviction rate is diminishing. The ‘justice gap’ for victims of rape is therefore widening. (HMCPS & HMIC, 2007)

· UK conviction rates for rape (Kelly, Lovett, and Regan, 2005):

· 1977: 33.3%

· 1999: 7.7%

· 2002: 5.6%

· 2004: 5.3% - (representing 1 in 20 reported cases) (OCJR, 2006)

· While the national average is 5.3%, the conviction rate in areas varies widely, from 13.8% in Northamptonshire to just 1.6% in Suffolk and 0.86% in Gloucestershire.

· In 2005 there were 728 convictions for rape (HMCPS & HMIC, 2007).

· Between half and two thirds of cases reported do not advance beyond the investigation stage (HMCPS & HMIC, 2007).

· Around half of convictions were due to a guilty plea, and where a full trial took place, an acquittal was the most likely outcome (Kelly, Lovett, and Regan, 2005).

· 23.8% of reported rapes are ‘no crimed’ by the police. 31.8% of these decisions have been found to be non-compliant with Home Office Counting Rules and should remain recorded crimes (HMCPS & HMIC, 2007). (The term ‘no crime’ means the police decide that the incident reported to them is most likely not to have been the result of a criminal act and they take no further action to pursue the claim. ‘No crimes’ are excluded from official recorded crime figures – which are in turn used for calculating levels of attrition.)

· There is supporting evidence in 86.7% of charged cases of rape. Thus in the majority of cases it is not simply a matter of the victim’s word against the defendants (HMCPS & HMIC, 2007).

· A vulnerability or diversity issue is identified in 42.4% of reported rape cases. The most frequently identified vulnerabilities relate to mental health and learning difficulties. The conviction rate for these cases is lower than the overall conviction rate for rape cases (HMCPS & HMIC, 2007).

· Rates of acquittal are twice as high in cases involving adults as those involving under-16s (Kelly, Lovett, and Regan, 2005).

· Intoxicants:

o Cases of rape are currently very difficult to prosecute successfully if the victim was intoxicated at the time of the attack, and there is a high chance of non-prosecution or acquittal for rape in these circumstances (HMCPS & HMIC, 2007).

o Conservative estimates indicate alcohol is involved in 34% of reported rape cases, and drugs in 12% of cases (Finch and Munroe, 2006).

o A recent study found 49.3% of rape cases reported to the police involved drugs and/or alcohol (alcohol being the primary intoxicant in the vast majority of cases). However, there were differences in the case sample: 59% of advice cases involved intoxicants and 39% of charged cases involved intoxicants. (HMCPS & HMIC, 2007). This suggests that alcohol use by victims influences police decision making

o Research suggests that jurors often take the view that it is 'reasonable' for a man to assume that silence represents sexual consent, even if the silence was due to the fact that the woman was totally intoxicated. Even in situations where the alcohol consumption was involuntary, jurors continue to hold the complainant responsible (Finch and Munroe, 2006).

o Research suggests the type of intoxicant involved in a rape case influences jurors’ decisions. In scenarios involving the ‘date rape drug’, Rohypnol, jurors are far less inclined to hold the rape complainant responsible for sexual intercourse than if the intoxicant was alcohol. This can be attributed to the fact that alcohol is more socially acceptable than drugs, and its use by men to ‘loosen’ up otherwise reluctant sexual partners has been normalised within society (Finch and Munroe, 2006).

o In 2005 the court case of R v Dougal (Swansea Crown Court) received wide-spread condemnation when the Judge directed the jury to enter a ‘not guilty’ verdict when the prosecution informed the judge it did not propose to proceed further because it was unable to prove that the complainant had not given consent because of her level of intoxication. The prosecuting counsel’s statement in Swansea Crown Court included the remark that “drunken consent is still consent”. The complainant stated that she could not remember whether she gave consent to sexual intercourse or not.



Public Attitudes

· A third (34%) of people in the UK believe that a woman is partially or totally responsible for being raped if she has behaved in a flirtatious manner (AIUK 2005).

· More than a quarter (26%) of people think a woman was partially or totally responsible for being raped if she was wearing sexy or revealing clothing (AIUK 2005).

· More than one in five (22%) hold the same view if a woman has many sexual partners (AIUK 2005).

· Around one in 12 people (8%) believe a woman is totally responsible for being raped if she has many sexual partners (AIUK 2005).

· Nearly a third of people (30%) say a woman was partially or totally responsible for being raped if she was drunk (AIUK 2005).

· More than a third (37%) hold the same view if the woman had failed to clearly say “no” to the man (AIUK 2005).

· The vast majority of the British population has no idea how many women are raped every year in the UK: 96% don’t know the true extent of rape or think it is far lower than the true figure. Only 4% think the number of women raped exceeds 10,000 per year when the true figure is likely to be well in excess of 50,000. (AIUK 2005)

· Young people’s attitudes (AIUK 2006):

o 27% think it is acceptable for a boy to 'expect to have sex with a girl' if the girl has been 'very flirtatious'.

o The same view is held by one in twelve (8%) of young people in the case of situations where a boy had 'spent a lot if time and money' on the girl.

o 11% think it is acceptable for a boy to expect to have sex if sexual activity had been initiated and the boy was 'really turned on'.

o In most cases more young men hold these views than young women.

· A study by Finch & Munroe (2006) of jury deliberations found:

o There is no consensus amongst jurors on the meaning of key terms used for deliberating whether a case constitutes rape. These terms are ‘freedom’, ‘capacity’ and ‘reasonableness’. Much is left in jury deliberations to interpretation and subjectivity. Jurors rely on questionable stereotypes in deliberations to afford leniency to the defendant.

o Some jurors believe a woman’s silence reasonably equates with sexual consent, and that physical force (and evidence of force) is a requisite of rape.

· The Sun Woman (2007) found four in five women believe rape would be taken less seriously if the victim was wearing a short skirt.

· The Sun Woman (2007) found 95% of people think the courts were failing rape victims, while 81% felt society's attitudes towards rape victims has deteriorated over the last ten years.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:TKmRuK31NMMJ:www.fawcettsociety.org.uk/documents/Rape%2520-%2520The%2520Facts.doc+date+rape+in+the+U.K.&cd=16&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us



0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sun 8 Aug, 2010 10:25 pm
Quote:
·
Rape: The Facts

International comparisons on attrition/conviction rates

o A recent review of European country studies on rape found that every country, except Germany, that provided data showed a decline in the proportion of prosecutions and convictions. In Germany, the proportion of prosecutions and convictions has increased since 1997. (Kelly and Regan, 2001; Regan and Kelly, 2003).

o Much higher prosecution rates than those in the UK were evident in a number of countries (including more than 50% of reports in Austria and Denmark). In Finland, Germany, Hungary, and Iceland the majority of prosecutions for rape resulted in convictions. (Kelly and Regan, 2001; Regan and Kelly, 2003). The only European country with a lower conviction rate than the UK was Ireland (Regan and Kelly, 2003).

o A report issued by the US Senate Judiciary Committee in 1993 revealed the average conviction rate in the USA in 1990 was 12%. A subsequent review has found the conviction rate to vary across the USA, from 2.5% to 19.9% (Kelly, Lovett, and Regan, 2005).

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:TKmRuK31NMMJ:www.fawcettsociety.org.uk/documents/Rape%2520-%2520The%2520Facts.doc+date+rape+in+the+U.K.&cd=16&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Aug, 2010 04:01 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

FART: your stats dont take into account getting convicted of a lessor crime, so they are intentionally misleading.

It is not "intentionally misleading." For what reason; to what conspiracy, would there be any such need to deceive? Also, adding in the cases where charges were lowered would not prove your argument true.

hawkeye10 wrote:

And As I have told you many times, if you want a better conviction rate then offer victims a better deal.

The best route to a higher conviction rate comes from more efficient lab processing of rape kits, and better resources for people who are victims.

hawkeye10 wrote:

You should also take seriously the very real problem of false claims, which gum up the system and makes all claims less likely to be believed.

I do take it seriously. However, perjury is a crime in which is larger than just rape cases. We also have legal mechanisms to fight against these kinds of things. If a man is falsely accused and convicted, he has a means to seek justice already. There is no need to loosen rape laws to make it harder to convict criminals. Besides, as I demonstrated with my challenge to you earlier in this thread, it changing the definition of rape would only help real rapists, it wouldn't really protect innocent men.

It makes me wonder where your interest is.

A
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BillRM
 
  -3  
Reply Mon 9 Aug, 2010 09:08 am
@failures art,
Quote:
I do take it seriously. However, perjury is a crime in which is larger than just rape cases. We also have legal mechanisms to fight against these kinds of things. If a man is falsely accused and convicted, he has a means to seek justice already. There is no need to loosen rape laws to make it harder to convict criminals. Besides, as I demonstrated with my challenge to you earlier in this thread, it changing the definition of rape would only help real rapists, it wouldn't really protect innocent men.


You got to be kidding me that this is not a greater problem then other criminal charges as in most crimes the accuser and the accuse do not have a history of sharing a bed together with a complex relationship just to start with in non-stranger/couples rape cases.

Nor as far as I know scientific studies do not show a very large ratio of false charges being level in most other criminal cases.

And as it now stand leveling false charges is a very low risk thing to do for the women.


failures art
 
  2  
Reply Mon 9 Aug, 2010 09:34 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:
And as it now stand leveling false charges is a very low risk thing to do for the women.

Funny how ever story of exposed extortion you've posted disagrees with your claim here. Plenty of women arrested and charged for making false claims to extort men.

A
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firefly
 
  2  
Reply Mon 9 Aug, 2010 09:58 am
@failures art,
Quote:
I do take it seriously. However, perjury is a crime in which is larger than just rape cases. We also have legal mechanisms to fight against these kinds of things. If a man is falsely accused and convicted, he has a means to seek justice already. There is no need to loosen rape laws to make it harder to convict criminals. Besides, as I demonstrated with my challenge to you earlier in this thread, it changing the definition of rape would only help real rapists, it wouldn't really protect innocent men.

It makes me wonder where your interest is.


How refreshing it is to hear your reasoned, intelligent responses, failures art. They bring the discussion back to its proper focus--the crime of rape.

Hawkeye thinks he is having a debate. That is his first serious error in judgment.

Rape occurs. It is an assaultive crime which damages and harms its victims both physically and emotionally, and which destroys trust and security for these victims. It sometimes results in the severe injury and death of its victims. It is under-reported and under prosecuted.

Where is the other side of that alleged "debate"? That rape does not occur? That it does not leave victims in its wake? That it is always investigated effectively and diligently, and that the perpetrators are often brought to justice?

There is no other side, because there is really no debate on the issue. There is no other side to the issue of the crime of rape. There is no debate. No matter how much Hawkeye and BillRM distort statistics, there still remains a real crime of rape which affects real victims, where exact numbers and percentages not only don't really matter, because they don't really change anything, but they can't even be measured accurately, which renders them useless in terms of meaningful discussion. As I write this, women of all ages, all over the world, are being raped, and not enough is being done about that. There is no "other side" to that issue. There is no debate, there can only be discussion about that.

Playing with statistics, as both BillRM and Hawkeye have both done, to allegedly show that rape may not be a frequent crime (rape denial), or that false accusations somehow invalidate the claims of women who have actually been raped (rape denial, rape apology), clearly indicate that their real interest is perpetuating our current situation where women can be raped with impunity because rapists easily escape punishment.

They are even disingenuous in their alleged concern for men who may actually be victimized under current rape laws. Despite repeated suggestions that they start their own thread on that topic, where that issue could be examined and discussed in its own right, with objective input, they have failed to do so. Instead, they insert the issue into this thread, where it is almost guaranteed to be dismissed or attacked, because it is presented in a way to either discredit female victims of rape, or to advocate dilution of the rape laws, both of which would actually work against trying to deter and punish the crime of rape more effectively. So, they have stacked the deck against their own issues getting a fair hearing and adequate discussion by inappropriately persisting to insert them into this thread. That they do not even want their own issues about male victimization considered in a better light, in a separate thread where they can be properly addressed, suggests that they are either incredible fools, or posturing phonies who have no real interest in the problem of male victimization.





Intrepid
 
  2  
Reply Mon 9 Aug, 2010 10:30 am
@firefly,
Quote:
They are even disingenuous in their alleged concern for men who may actually be victimized under current rape laws. Despite repeated suggestions that they start their own thread on that topic, where that issue could be examined and discussed in its own right, with objective input, they have failed to do so. Instead, they insert the issue into this thread, where it is almost guaranteed to be dismissed or attacked,


These guys thrive on attention. Any attention. Negative attention does not faze them and they, in fact, thrive on it.

They are not concerned about the plight of the women involved at all. They are probably not really concerned with the men either. They are only concerned with posting rebuttal after rebuttal to irrefutable evidence.

They don't start their own thread because they know that it will be ignored. Instead, they use your thread to make post after post of nonsense. One would think that there was a contest going on for make the most posts in a thread without adding any value.

The information regarding rape that you have provided gives a lot of insight into the problem.
BillRM
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 9 Aug, 2010 11:51 am
@failures art,
Quote:
Funny how ever story of exposed extortion you've posted disagrees with your claim here. Plenty of women arrested and charged for making false claims to extort men.


Yes when you dealing with a mid-age wealthy man able to hire the best lawyers and demand actions be taken by the local justice system a woman is playing a very high risk game.

That is not however the case of a 22 year old college student who girlfriend wish to get even for him daring to breakup with her or cheat on her.

0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 9 Aug, 2010 12:10 pm
@Intrepid,
Quote:
These guys thrive on attention. Any attention. Negative attention does not faze them and they, in fact, thrive on it
You would think that, being unaccustomed to your moral bullying not working to chase away opposing views that you cant bring yourself to deal with.

I long for the day when you are a big enough man to deal with the subject matter without constantly trying to tar and feather the opposition. I don't figure that I will ever see it.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Aug, 2010 12:11 pm
When it is the police who are commiting the sexual assaults, the problem is considerably more serious. These are the people rape victims are supposed to be able to trust.

Recent cases from the NYPD...

Quote:

Narcotics Detective Arrested by Feds for Sexual Misconduct

A 13-year Queens North narcotics detective was arrested today on sexual misconduct charges, concluding a multi-year investigation by Internal Affairs and the FBI. Oscar Sandino, 37, is accused of forcing a woman he arrested during a February 2008 drug raid to perform oral sex on him in the precinct bathroom. Before that—during the arrest—he allegedly took her into her bedroom and forced her to undress, and later told her that she was going to jail and would lose her children unless she had sex with him.

After taking her into the precinct bathroom, Sandino allegedly pulled down her pants and said, "Wow, you have an earring down there. Now I know I can trust you." (Because genital piercings change color whenever you tell a lie?) And after she was released from custody, Sandino told her that he expected her to have sex with him at a later time, and allegedly called the victim on numerous occasions. She subsequently reported Sandino’s misconduct to NYPD’s Internal Affairs Bureau, which began an investigation, and in March 2008 he was removed from active duty.

And it doesn't end there! Sandido allegedly engaged in similar misconduct in the summer of 2006, when he coerced a female cousin of a drug dealer to have sex with him after falsely telling her the cousin faced a long prison term. And despite being kept off active duty, Sandino allegedly kept at it. Last September, he escorted a handcuffed woman who had been arrested for disorderly conduct into a private room at the stationhouse and made her expose her breasts, officials say. Federal prosecutors Pamela Chen and Licha Nyiendo said the evidence is "substantial and irrefutable."

http://gothamist.com/2010/05/18/narcotics_detective_arrested_by_fed.php
By John Del Signore in News on May 18, 2010 4:21 PM


And, yet another one....at least this one just got 5 years in prison

Quote:

Allegedly Sex-Abusing Cops Upstaging Each Other

Lest you think yesterday's arrest of an allegedly sex-crazed abusive narcotics detective is just an isolated incident, there's yet another rapist cop in the news. Yesterday ex-cop Wilfredo Rosario (who was previously found guilty of telling a teenager that if she performed oral sex on him he'd destroy a summons for trespassing in Riverside Park) went on trial for two other alleged violations: that he sexually abused two women after luring them with promises of applications for jobs and programs for their children. And a fourth trial for rape looms for Rosario after this one.

Yesterday one of his alleged victims told her story for the first time, testifying that in March 2008 Rosario, now 41, showed up at her house in response to a request she put in at the 26th Precinct in Upper Manhattan for an after-school program for her son. She claims Rosario lured her to her car in order to explain the application to her in Spanish, but then started driving. He allegedly pulled over at one point and told her he wanted to feel her heart, then began groping her breasts. After she pushed his hand away, she says Rosario showed her a Santeria necklace and told her it "gave him the power to feel people" and he could tell that she "had suffered a lot in this lifetime."

Insisting her he wanted to help her, Rosario allegedly demanded that she show him her lower back tattoo, then forced her hand down his pants. After dropping her off at home, he called her and told her, "I know where you live—don't tell anybody what happened"—a threat that the victim caught on tape. According to prosecutors, Rosario followed a similar pattern in the other abuse incidents; in the 2003 rape Rosario "allegedly appeared unannounced at the female victim’s apartment after she sought assistance and information about an after-school program for her young daughter. He entered the victim’s apartment, fondled her then forcibly raped her."

By John Del Signore in News on May 19, 2010 11:00 AM
http://gothamist.com/2010/05/19/sex-abusing_cops_a_dime_a_dozen.php
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Ex-Cop Sentenced to 5 Years for Sex Abuse

In June, disgraced community affairs cop Wilfredo Rosario was convicted of sexually assaulting two immigrant mothers whom he'd offered to "help" with after-school program paperwork for their kids. But Rosario was defiant to the end at his sentencing yesterday, telling the judge, "I never once tarnished my shield. The truth will come out." To which Judge Daniel FitzGerald replied, "Mr. Rosario, the truth did come out. You've stained the reputation of every decent, hardworking police officer on the force. You've made every officer's job that much more difficult by driving a wedge of mistrust between him and every citizen he needs to deal with."

Previously, Rosario was also found guilty of telling a teenager that if she performed oral sex on him he'd destroy a summons for trespassing in Riverside Park. His sentence of five years in prison covers that offense, but a fourth charge of rape, dating back to 2003, was dismissed because that alleged victim won't cooperate prosecutors, according to assistant D.A. Artie McConnell, who described Rosario yesterday as "a selfish, narcissistic predator."

By John Del Signore in News on August 6, 2010 5:00 PM

http://gothamist.com/2010/08/06/ex-cop_sentenced_to_5_years_for_sex.php


Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Aug, 2010 12:14 pm
@hawkeye10,
Are you denying it?

Opposing views? Sure, I can bring myself to dealing with it. That is the only reason I respond to your pathetic posts. Most of which, btw, are off topic.

The fact that you think that sex with young girls and the rape of women is a man's right makes you the bully. Of course, you only bully women.
 

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