@Intrepid,
Quote:thus sexual indoctrination programs such as "just say no" are an abomination.
I thought that was a drug program thing.
I've been hesitating for pages now regarding making a post.
I know I'm not going to be able to phrase this in such a way that someone isn't going to tell me that I think women do ask to be raped.
But here goes....
With the usual disclaimer of "no one should be forced to have sex against her will; no means no; a woman is not asking to be raped because of what she wears; etc. etc. etc. etc. ad infinitum.....
Stepping back from all the above "in a perfect world" stuff, I prefer to live in the reality of the world around me. A world in which no matter how hard I wish, there is going to be a percentage of people, in this case, men, who are going to receive the message "she wants it"
Albeit, some men will think a woman is giving the "I want it" message from her dress is she was wearing an ankle length, covered to the neck, loose burqa. Let's assume for a moment, for the sake of discussion, that the quintessential look portrayed by the blue sparkly skirt in the video is the standard by which some misguided men will believe "she's askin' for it"
In the real world, there will ALWAYS be these men, regardless of education, etc. etc. Yes, the number of them may decrease, but there will always be some.
What I always wonder is WHY is it SO incredibly important that a woman (using the nice young lady in the video as "every woman", not each woman on earth individually) feel she must wear "the blue skirt"?
I hope this example can be understood...
A couple of weeks ago, I knew on a particular day at work that I was going to be totally alone at the office. I had no appts scheduled, boss was out of town, other co-workers on vacation or off site.
I got up that morning and decided that I was not going to dress as usual for work, that I would wear no makeup, just run a brush through my hair and wear my yoga clothes to work, so I could catch a class mid day or immediatley after work, and not have to change. I had every right to look like a schlumb that day.
Of course that was the day my boss called and asked me to deliver some contracts to one of our medical directors office, and meet with the new fianancial analyst there. It wasn't horribly embarrassing, but I did feel a bit self conscious introducing myself, and felt I had to give a brief explanation, based on the brief look on the face of the fa.
I had the right to look like a slob, and I did. But, I also had to own the responsibility of the reaction of whoever saw me. Responsibility not that I would have deserved it if I had been treated shabbily, but that I shouldn't be surprised if that had been someone's initial reaction.
If that had occured, I would have felt it would have been right that the person would have laughed it off and understood when I explained "I was alone today and wanted to be comfortable" but, what if they hadn't? I would have to be aware of that as a possibility, right or wrong.
I know, maybe a silly example, not as violent, traumatic, as rape.
However, a woman, even knowing she has a right to wear the blue skirt, surely cannot be unaware that out of the potentially hundreds of people that will see her that night 1 or more, male AND female, are going to think she's askin' for it. They would be wrong, but that doesn't change the way they will think, if that is their nature.
These wrong thinking people can perhaps be educated in another way of thinking, however, a setting of being out clubbing, alcohol, etc. is not the best time to give a class.
Would the woman's evening had been totally ruined if she hadn't worn the blue skirt? Is the blue skirt really that important?
Am I saying women should wear burqa's? Of course not.
Could they get raped by someone who thinks she's askin' for it because she's wearing sweatpants and a t-shirt?
Obviously yes she could.
We all want to believe that a woman has the right, the freedom to wear what she wants.
But, as with ANY right or freedom, comes a degree of responsibility.
Does a woman deserve to be raped because of what she wears?
No.
Does she have the responsibility to consider her audience?
Yes.
Why is it most of us have a very clear idea of limitations when dressing for work, visiting grandma, going to the store, church, etc, but suddenly all that goes out the window at a time when perhaps even more thought should be given?
Okaaaay.....again I'm prefacing this with saying a woman can be raped anywhere, so don't get your panties in a twist, but....
why is it when we are engaging in activities where we and the people around us are sober, where it isn't really expected there will be much interaction among strangers, where there may not be any reason for a pervert (rapist) to even give you a glance, or for someone to get an erroneous message, because their thinking isn't muddled by alcohol/drugs we ususally don't wear the blue skirt? I mean, you still have the same right and freedom to wear it, don't you?
Unfortunately, in the real world, many times, in order to remain as safe as possible, we have to consider the lowest common denominator.
Is your night going to be ruined if you don't wear the blue skirt?
Don't we have the same freedom NOT to wear the blue skirt?
@chai2,
chai2 wrote:I know I'm not going to be able to phrase this in such a way that someone isn't going to tell me that I think women do ask to be raped.
But here goes....
With the usual disclaimer of "no one should be forced to have sex against her will; no means no; a woman is not asking to be raped because of what she wears; etc. etc. etc. etc. ad infinitum.....
Stepping back from all the above "in a perfect world" stuff, I prefer to live in the reality of the world around me. A world in which no matter how hard I wish, there is going to be a percentage of people, in this case, men, who are going to receive the message "she wants it"
I get where you are coming from, an analogy I have used when thinking about this in the past is that we are much more willing to blame the victim when they are flashing around wealth amidst poverty. It's certainly not their fault if they are robbed but we are more willing to consider their act a lack of discretion.
In the same way, I would be willing to agree that promiscuous dress can be a lack of discretion. Of course, and like you say, that doesn't mean they are asking to be raped, just that their choice of clothing can increase their odds of being a target in theory.
Thing is, I'm not even sure how much that theory plays out, I'm sure it will get you a lot more lewd attention, but I'm not sure how often dress plays a role in target selection for rapists. Maybe in cases like date rape? Where a guy might be more likely to see an alcohol addled 'yes'?
I'm sincerely curious, I'd like to know whether anyone knows what role dress plays in the odds and really have no idea.
@chai2,
"asking for it" seems somewhat undefined. In the advert, if she had said "I want to be look hot tonight, I'm hoping to ge laid" that could well be accurate. It doesn't make any subsequent act of violence against her any more or less wrong, even if it makes it more likely. You can be "asking for it" as far along the process as being midway through the sex act, and then change your mind. If your partner refuses to stop, it is rape, and no more or less so than if a spinster in a neck-to-toe is attacked while checking the mailbox.
@Robert Gentel,
Interesting questions.
To Chai, this can go down and down and down so you can't even show your toes. Slippery street.
At the same time I say that, I get your point.
To Robert, I was raped once, not dressed provocatively, but I probably acted interested to him, about his paintings but I also thought he was someone I could like, though I've never been much of a flirt, at least to myself.
I've never been all that provocative, count me boring, but that's not about the rape issue - more of style.
I expressed interest, and in time old fashion, he showed me his studio. The door was maybe sixty feet away and he was too big to ward off, and I was stupid to be alone with him.
So, that brings up stupidity.
It wasn't my fault, yelled no's (it's the only sex in my life I didn't participate in), but it was stupid of me. I think I hoped he might like me. That doesn't (of course) mean, rape me.
In a way, it's amazing I can stand art as a subject.
On the dressing and rape statistics, I don't know. I'm guessing they vary relative to place.
@ossobuco,
I am sorry you were sexually violated in that manner, osso.
No women should expect to get raped just because she wears sexy clothes
or is nice to a guy and shows initial interest.
I happen to see provocative clothing on teenagers - they love all the attention
they get but at the same time they're still naive enough to think that they can
control the attention towards certain boys only. Tank tops and shorts can be
quite revealing and sexy, yet in the summer time this is all you see on teenage
girls and they should be allowed to wear it without fear of being made
the target of rape due to their clothing.
I personally think that a secure, self assured woman is less likely to be the
victim of a random attack as opposed to an insecure, timid woman, regardless
of her outfit.
Yeh, but I was secure. I've always been full of beans. I was just surprised and stupid.
Of course, I know better now.
But, never mind me, that was long ago, it's an anecdote, although more to me.
I have doubts that clothes have much to do with it, as triggers, at the same time I suppose they can.
@Arella Mae,
That is cute, major cute. That was you speaking, Arella Mae, not me. That's why it was in italics. It was a joke, you know, "I believe so much in freedom of speech but I'm putting you on ignore".
You're not on Ignore. I don't use Ignore, never have, never will.
hi guys, what do you think of invasion ? did Iraq asked to get invaded? tell me please, have you found the WMD?
can a woman ask to get raped? my answer is NO
@Robert Gentel,
Quote:In the same way, I would be willing to agree that promiscuous dress can be a lack of discretion. Of course, and like you say, that doesn't mean they are asking to be raped, just that their choice of clothing can increase their odds of being a target in theory.
Yeah, as can their choice to take a hike by themselves, or their choice to run out to the store late at night to get something they need and forgot to get...etc...
The point I'm making is how far do we women have to limit our dress and activities before anyone can say - SHE didn't increase the odds of her being a target of rape?
You know it makes me so angry. I can still feel the anger I felt once when I was walking home from a friend's house - she'd offered to drive me - but I wanted to walk because it was snowing and this ******* asshole in a truck followed me the whole way - making it IMPOSSIBLE for me to enjoy my walk because I was terrified I was going to get raped and finally I gave up and hid behind a car in a driveway until he drove by the fifth time and I ran up and knocked on a door and asked to use a phone (this was before cell phones) for my friend to come pick me up and drive me the rest of the way home.
I was shaking with rage...but I never walked in that town alone again at night.
Why should I have to change my behavior if I'm not doing anything wrong?
And if I can't wear a blue skirt without worrying about it - how/why the hell is that my problem?
No - I reject that reasoning.
Well, Chai2 has a very good point. The way you dress, the way you walk, the way you talk, the make up you wear, where you hang out - all are choices you're making in presenting yourself and who you are. So if you're wearing suggestive clothing, everybody's going to think you might be available. This is not to suggest you're waving a flag saying "Rape Me" and it would really only apply to date rape type of situations. But if you see a woman with stilettos, a top showing all her cleavage and a very short, tight skirt sitting next to a woman in more modest attire, which one do you think is on the make? It may not be true, but that's what you're automatically going to think. She's advertising she's available, while the other one isn't.
Rapists that prowl the streets seem to not care how a person's dressed - they just want a victim for their rage or whatever it is. I read not long ago of an elderly woman who was raped and I would bet she wasn't wearing suggestive clothing.
There is some accountability on womens' behalf to protect themselves. To be sensible in not walking in dodgy streets, frequenting dodgy bars/night clubs, not being alone at night or in deserted areas, etc. Just common sense. Because we all know those perverts are out there.
That's not to say I fully agree with No Means No, regardless of whatever Hawkeye is promoting. Not to pick on him, but really, he's left himself open to it, but if I were on a date with him and said No, and he kept trying to pressure me because I owe him for the dinner he bought, that'd be the last time I ever dealt with him. A date is where you get to know someone, not where you are obliged to put out for your dinner. I'd be whipping out my wallet as I said No for the second time. I cannot stand being pressured and I think he's crazy to think women would fall for that or want that. If I said No to dessert, it means I don't want any. If I said No to him, it means I don't want him. Period. No does not mean Maybe Later. Most women (that I know) do not play these types of games, so maybe it's just the women/social circle Hawkeye is in contact with.
@Mame,
Wanting to have consensual sex in no way equates with wanting to be raped.
Again, I would ask- by this reasoning to what extent do women have to adjust their dress and behavior before someone will say, 'She in no way contributed to the fact that that man nullified her rights as a human being and took what he wanted from her'.
How about if she's at the beach and she's wearing a bikini instead of a one piece?
I'm not willing to go one step down that road.
A long time ago I was attracted to a young woman. When we were alone together we kissed and touched and got quite sensual.
When she said NO! I stopped. I asked why and she said because i am frightened. and that was it, no sex for me.
I do NOT agree that a woman who allows herself to be alone with a man is stupid.
Men are (need to be) responsible for their actions. Forcing a woman to have sex says nothing about the woman.
I do not agree that a woman who dresses provocativly is "asking for it" or "on the make" or "available for sex".
Look at me clothes are exactly that, I want your attention, I want you to look at me, admire me NOT I want to have sex.
A woman dressed provocativly could expect to get offers... in all their various forms, and reject or accept as she sees fit.
@dadpad,
I agree with you. I said that's what people would assume, seeing the two women together. But it doesn't mean that it's true. It's just how we perceive things. It could be the more modestly dressed one is actually looking to hook up and the other one dresses like that all the time, so it's the norm for her. It's about perceptions. It doesn't mean she's to blame for any of the bothersome attention she might get, but it could be avoided by the way she presented herself. I stopped wearing certain types of tops (that weren't revealing but they fitted well) because men never looked me in the eye - no, they were talking to my boobs. That made me uncomfortable and I didn't think it was fair that I had to change my dress because of them, but I'd rather not have that kind of attention, so I did.
But no matter what, you're right... No means No.
Long ago I used to experience that kind of pressure and it's really quite disgusting to be on the woman's end of it. You asked me out, you bought me dinner, and somehow I'm obligated to go to bed with you? I don't think so. That was very common during the 70's, at least where I lived. Consequently, I stopped 'dating' and just hung out with girl friends or a crowd. It makes you feel like a piece of meat.
The only real life, well-publicized situation I know of that came close to the hypothetical to which we allude is the one that involved Mike Tyson and Desiree Washington in 1992.
He had already aggressively hit on her and made sexual advances when he was meeting and socializing with her and other beauty contest contestants. He had fondled and pawed at several of them. She, like the rest of the world, knew of his rough nature and had already seen how willing he was to go after what he wanted. After knowing him a matter of hours, she showed up to "suprise" him at his hotel room at 2 or 3 in the morning, and the rest is history.
No, I don't think a woman can "ask" to be raped, but sometimes I think they can push the limits of good common sense as it relates to their own responsibility for safety.
