25
   

Hey, Can A Woman "Ask To Get Raped"?

 
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 May, 2014 12:17 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Who the hell with a straight face can claim that this society is not biased against men?


It also turn women into children that are not responsible for their own actions and somehow that seem insulting to women.

We as a society think that you need all kinds of legal prortection of when and to who you can consent to sex with for your own good.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 May, 2014 12:24 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
It also turn women into children that are not responsible for their own actions and somehow that seem insulting to women.


We have touched on this before, and it is an interesting subject. My evaluation is that most women are generally offended but they dont feel free to speak, they have been cowed by the feminists with the argument " but your injured sisters need this, do your duty". It is bullshit of course, but it is the other side of the coin from when they tell men " but of course most men are not abusing women, but the men who do hurt women so much that it is your duty to take the restricting of your freedom and rights in silence".

They have taken a page from the civil rights movement, using guilt to get away with abuse. Or maybe they have taken a page from the abuser 101 playbook, as this is a very common move.
firefly
 
  0  
Reply Thu 22 May, 2014 12:27 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
the entire legal theory of current sexual assault law rests on the argument that men assume risk when they get mixed up with a woman, and that they need to make sure that she is consenting.
You don't trust women, that's why you see it as a risk situation "to get mixed up with a woman". That's your problem.

Why is it such a big deal for you to make sure the other person is consenting? To make sure that either she wants it, or is not indicating that she doesn't want it. Most people do that automatically, out of respect for the other person.

Don't you have any regard for what the other person wants done to them?

You don't take someone else's property without their consent do you? To do that without consent is theft, also a crime..

hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Thu 22 May, 2014 12:36 am
@firefly,
Quote:
You don't take someone else's property without their consent do you? To do that without consent is theft, also a crime..

nicely illustrating just how desperate your position has become in this argument, that you feel the need to argue that women are the property of men.


Go to bed, perhaps you can come up with a better argument after a good nights rest.
0 Replies
 
Builder
 
  0  
Reply Thu 22 May, 2014 12:36 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
So the accuser gets cross examined....BOO HOO!


Actually, the majority of rape cases don't get to court. It's the police that do the "cross-examining" and the doctors that examine the rape victims aren't meant to show any emotion either.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 May, 2014 12:37 am
@hawkeye10,
I'm re-posting this, because this is reality, not the bullshit you keep spewing forth.

Hawkeye, if you believe that "almost no men are sexually assaulting women", you're just plain nuts.

This former NFL player is currently accused of being a serial predator/rapist...the complaints are from 9 women in several different states, and their accounts are all very similar. And, if these women didn't lodge complaints, he'd still be out there continuing to rape...

Quote:
Ex-N.F.L. Star Who Spoke Out for Women Is Accused of Being a Rapist
The New York Times
MAY 15, 2014

Darren Sharper, a former N.F.L. standout who won a Super Bowl with the New Orleans Saints, posed with his teenage daughter, his deep dimples framing his wide, bright white smile, her head leaning on his shoulder.

The photograph was in the 2010 book “NFL Dads Dedicated to Daughters,” compiled to promote “thoughtful discussion about making the world a safer place for all women.”

On Page 90, Sharper wrote: “My daughter makes me mindful of how women are treated, undervalued and exploited.” He instructed men to “deal with women respectfully, honorably and fairly at all times.”

Now, four years later, Sharper is scheduled on Friday to be in a courtroom in California, one of five states where he is facing accusations of sexual assault. Since retiring from football in 2011, Sharper has been accused of being a serial rapist, drugging and assaulting nine women in California, Arizona, Nevada, Louisiana and Florida.

He has been formally charged in Maricopa County, Ariz., and Los Angeles, where he has been in jail without the possibility of bail since February. Having shined in his 14-year career with the Green Bay Packers, the Minnesota Vikings and the Saints, he will have an orange jumpsuit and handcuffs as his uniform Friday.

Blair Berk, his lawyer in California, declined to comment on Sharper’s legal problems. Nandi Campbell, one of his lawyers in New Orleans, said on Thursday that the public would be surprised when it learned the real facts of the cases.

“There has been an assumption made,” she said. “Because there are multiple states involved, people think he must be guilty. But it’s important that the public doesn’t jump to that conclusion.”

Although there is an arrest warrant out for Sharper in New Orleans because he has been accused of two counts of aggravated rape — charges that could lead to life imprisonment — Campbell said the public must realize that he has yet to be charged with any crimes there.

Perhaps not surprisingly, friends and colleagues struggle to fathom how the Darren Sharper in jail is the same one they thought they knew. LeRoy Butler, a friend of Sharper’s in the N.F.L., told The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, “This guy was like the chivalry days where you’d lay down a jacket so they could walk over the puddle.”

People who knew him from Hermitage High School in suburban Richmond, Va., told me that Sharper didn’t miss a day of school for three years, and was on the class council and in the foreign language club. He starred in football, basketball and track.

He came from a good family, with parents who told him that he couldn’t play sports if he didn’t keep his grades up. His father briefly played for the Kansas City Chiefs before becoming an administrator for the Henrico County school system in Virginia. His mother and sister run an in-home health care service for senior citizens. His brother, Jamie, also played football and won a Super Bowl with the Baltimore Ravens.

Sharper, 38, was not a dumb jock. He attended William & Mary, a strong academic university whose football team wasn’t Division I, because he wanted a good education.

Could anyone — including the N.F.L. — possibly have thought that Sharper would one day be accused of something so sinister?

A former All-Pro safety at 6 feet 2 inches and 210 pounds, Sharper played eight seasons for the Packers and four for the Vikings before finishing his career with the Saints.

At the end of the 2010 season, he led all active players with 63 interceptions and had been named to the N.F.L.’s All-Decade team. He was a possible Hall of Famer and was also known as a charmer. It seemed to be his destiny to transition smoothly into a new career after his official retirement from football in 2011. He took his charisma to NFL Network, where he worked as a television analyst.

The women who have accused him of drugging them and raping them might have been initially attracted to that public personality. But their perceptions changed after spending a night in his company.

Their accounts are detailed in court documents:

On Oct. 30, 2013, two women were partying at Bootsy Bellows, a West Hollywood nightclub, when they met Sharper through a mutual friend. Later, Sharper invited those women to a party and they all left the club together.

While in the cab to the party, Sharper told the women he had wanted to make a pit stop at his hotel suite “to pick up something.” The women obliged and accompanied Sharper to his suite. Soon after they walked through the door, Sharper mixed drinks for them, coaxing them to try a liqueur he called Coffee Patron, according to court documents. Within minutes, both women blacked out.

Several hours later, one woman woke up naked, with Sharper sexually assaulting her. The other woman woke up, too, and entered Sharper’s bedroom, interrupting the assault. They gathered their belongings and went home, only to wake up four hours later, remembering only portions of the night.

A little more than two months later, on Jan. 14, Sharper had returned to Bootsy Bellows for what the police said was a repeat performance. He met two women, and then invited them to another party. According to court documents, he asked them to stop at his hotel suite so he could pick up some narcotics.

They walked into the suite. Then came the shots of liquor. They blacked out.

Both women woke up several hours later on a pullout couch in the living room. One immediately felt as if she had been sexually assaulted. They left, but ended up sleeping three to four more hours before reporting the incident to the police. Again, their memories of the night were spotty. Neither had any recollection of what happened during the many hours after they drank the shots that Sharper had given them.

The next night, Sharper was in Las Vegas at a nightclub, and the script began from the first scene once again: He met two women, invited them and one of their male friends to his hotel room, where he said there would be a party. Shots. Blackouts.

One of the women awoke next to Sharper in bed and upon going to the bathroom discovered “visible injuries to her face she could not account for.” Sharper asked her how she was feeling because, he told her, she had vomited the night before. He then offered her sips of a beverage that would make her feel better. The next thing she remembered after taking those sips was Sharper’s sexually assaulting her. The woman still sleeping on the couch woke up and felt as if she too had been assaulted. The male friend regained consciousness when he was at a bar in the hotel lobby. He didn’t know how he got there.

In each rape accusation against Sharper, the accusers reported similar circumstances. Those women said Sharper, who is accused of drugging the women with a generic form of the sleep aid Ambien, left them guessing as to whether they had been raped at all.

One of his accusers was startled to find herself naked from the waist down. Another felt pain, burning and rawness in her vaginal area, though she hadn’t had consensual sex in several weeks. One was still so barely lucid that she couldn’t get out of bed to open the window for fresh air.

One of his accusers asked him, “Did we have sex last night?” His answer: “No.” Another asked, “What happened last night?” He said, “You tell me. What were we drinking? Did I throw up?”

Several of the women said they briefly became semiconscious during their drug-induced stupor to see a naked Sharper on top of them, sexually assaulting them, only to fade back into oblivion moments later.

Alice Vachss, the former chief of the Special Victims Unit of the Queens District Attorney’s office, said that it was common for rapists, as well as predators of children, to present themselves publicly like upstanding citizens who want to protect women or children while committing sex crimes against them.

“Whether he’s lying to himself, saying, ‘Oh, I’m not a rapist,’ I wouldn’t know,” Vachss said about criminals of this type generally. “But he is
enjoying the fact that he is getting one over on these women. That’s his predator’s pattern. Is it really ugly? Yes. It is very hard on victims because there’s a fundamental violation of trust. It’s very hard to come back from.”

Particularly when he was with the Saints, it was common to see Sharper at breast cancer awareness events, or at events like Football Camp for Her, which teaches women the rules of football and allows them to mingle with some pros. Sex crime experts say this might have been a way for him to gain trust of potential victims and then lure them into spending the night with him.

But Sharper wasn’t always that subtle. Two days after he was suspected of raping a woman in Los Angeles last fall, he posted a Twitter message promoting a Football Camp for Her: “get your tix! You will be touched in many ways.”

Serial rapists who drug women before assaulting them are often very good at what they do once they fine-tune their methods and find a drug that works for them, said Linda Fairstein, who for 26 years was chief of the sex crimes prosecution unit for the New York County District Attorney.

“When they develop an M.O., they usually stay with it and use it often,” she said. “These predators become very brazen about repeating their acts.”

Fairstein said that someone in a position like Sharper’s could have an edge on the women he is accused of raping from the very beginning. Those women might be afraid to report the rape, for fear of being judged for being drunk with a celebrity athlete.

“There is a tremendous underreporting because who would believe you?” she said, referring broadly to such cases. “He’s a big name. He’s a TV personality.” People might say, “You had too much to drink,” Fairstein said, and that fear of humiliation is powerful enough to keep a rape victim silent.

But now that several cases are in the public, more women might step forward to say Sharper had raped them, too, Fairstein and other sex crimes experts said.

That’s exactly what happened in one case, in Miami Beach. In mid-January, a woman had been watching the news on CBS when she heard that Sharper had been arrested on suspicion of rape. It jogged her memory of a night she spent with Sharper that fall, a night she said ended with her slurring her speech and falling asleep, only to wake up to Sharper’s sexually assaulting her.

Two days after she learned of his arrest in California, she felt emboldened. She said she filed a report with the Miami Beach Police Department, accusing Sharper of raping her, to clear her conscience.

Even if that woman’s account doesn’t result in criminal charges against Sharper, it and any other subsequent reports from other women might be used against him as evidence in the existing cases, Fairstein said.

“Some judges might let in that evidence, but only if the details are very, very similar,” she said.

So far, the existing cases are all somewhat similar. By most accounts from the accused, it seemed that Sharper had perfected his M.O.

Could there have been hints that Sharper was treating women this way? Were there rumors and eyewitnesses, as there were in the case of Jerry Sandusky, the former Penn State assistant football coach who turned out to be a serial child molester? Were there people too afraid to speak out against him?

All we know for sure is that nine women have claimed that Sharper drugged and raped them from the fall of 2012 to Jan. 15. But sex crimes experts say this might just be a sliver of a criminal résumé.

“For the most part, I haven’t found that rape happens out of the blue for anybody,” said Vachss, the former Queens prosecutor. “The likelihood is that they have been doing it for years, but no police officer took it as a complaint.”

Tony Porter, a founder of A Call to Men, a violence prevention program that teaches men to be respectful of women and keep them safe, certainly didn’t expect Sharper to end up an accused serial rapist.

Porter has been a consultant to the N.F.L. for years, talking to teams and their players during mandatory life skills training about the importance of valuing women. He noticed how much the players connected with him when Porter encouraged them to treat women how they would like their daughters to be treated. He wanted to find a way to get that message across to other men who might see the N.F.L. players as role models.

He settled on a book — “NFL Dads Dedicated to Daughters” — and brought the idea to the N.F.L. Players Association. The union ended up choosing 70 players, including Sharper, from the ones who had volunteered to be part of the project.

“Darren is possibly in trouble for doing some inappropriate behaviors, but those of us who want to see men do better understand that we cannot cast a shadow on every single man who was part of that book,” Porter said. “Most men are good men and would never perpetrate these kind of crimes, and I hope the public realizes that.”

Sharper is expected to be tried in California first, before any other cases. If convicted on all counts, he could spend more than 30 years in prison.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/16/sports/football/ex-nfl-star-who-spoke-out-for-women-is-accused-of-being-a-rapist.html?hpw&rref=sports&action=click&module=Search&region=searchResults&mabReward=relbias%3Ar%2C%5B%22RI%3A10%22%2C%22RI%3A12%22%5D&url=http%3A%2F%2Fquery.nytimes.com%2Fsearch%2Fsitesearch%2F%3Faction%3Dclick%26region%3DMasthead%26pgtype%3DHomepage%26module%3DSearchSubmit%26contentCollection%3DHomepage%26t%3Dqry470%23%2Frape%2F7days%2F
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Thu 22 May, 2014 01:42 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
So the accuser gets cross examined....BOO HOO!


Your use of accuser instead of victim says it all. You have no sympathy for anyone other than yourself and those like you. cross examination can be extremely harrowing.

Quote:
A professional violinist killed herself after giving evidence at the trial of her former music teacher, who was found guilty of five counts of indecent assault on Friday.

Jurors in the case against Michael Brewer were not told of Frances Andrade's death until after they reached a verdict.

Brewer, 68, the former director of music at the world-renowned Chetham's school of music in Manchester, was found guilty of five charges of indecently assaulting Andrade when she was 14 and 15 and a pupil at the school.

He was cleared on three further indecent assault charges and was found not guilty of raping Andrade when she was 18. His ex-wife, Hilary Kay Brewer, also 68, was found guilty of indecently assaulting Andrade when she was 18, but found not guilty of aiding and abetting rape.

The judge warned them to expect custodial sentences.

The Guardian has learned that Andrade, 48, texted a friend three days before her death to say she felt like she had been "raped all over again" after appearing in the witness box at Manchester crown court last month to face Brewer.

The mother of four texted that she felt "fragmented". Asked by a friend if the verdict would make a difference to the way she felt. "No either is awful x," Andrade texted back.


http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/feb/08/sexual-abuse-victim-killed-herself-trial
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 May, 2014 02:06 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:

Your use of accuser instead of victim says it all.


That would be alleged victim actually, but as I have mentioned I have never been brainwashed by the victim culture advocates into not caring about justice like the rest of you bozo's have. In the courtroom the focus is supposed to be on the accused, the proceedings are a contest between the state and the accused, and it is the fate of the accused that is being decided. It is victim culture advocates who insist that we subvert to proceedings into a sob session for the alleged victims. I will resist the urge. I am sure you love it though, as you are a very emotional fella. Try Rom-coms for your addiction, no lives get destroyed by those.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Thu 22 May, 2014 02:49 am
@hawkeye10,
Don't talk crap, if anyone's brainwashed it's yourself, and wilfully so, because you refuse to look at things like facts and evidence, preferring prejudice and an inability to see the world as it is. As far as victim culture goes, you constantly play the victim card.

Btw, there's no such this as a plural apostrophe, it's bozos, not bozo's. When someone accuses me of being emotional they're definitely on the back foot, especially as I'm English, stiff upper lip and all that. I don't watch Romcoms, they're ****, and as for ruining lives, Frances Andrade's life was ruined before the trial, and the trial did for her.

Like a lot of sociopaths you have an inability to empathise, seeing everything as how it affects you. It's nothing more than self centred egotism, and that's about as emotional as you can get, no reasoning at all.
Builder
 
  0  
Reply Thu 22 May, 2014 07:30 am
@hawkeye10,

Quote:
That would be alleged victim actually


Most people subjected to this crime end up describing themselves as survivors, Hawk.
Quote:

but as I have mentioned I have never been brainwashed by the victim culture advocates into not caring about justice like the rest of you bozo's have.


"Not caring about justice". Let's look at that claim. shall we?
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Thu 22 May, 2014 08:02 am
@Builder,
Builder wrote:
"Not caring about justice". Let's look at that claim. shall we?


Anyone concerned about justice would want all those rapists whose crimes go unreported to see trial.
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  0  
Reply Thu 22 May, 2014 10:57 am
@izzythepush,
In trying to understand hawkeye's motivation through these 468 pages your summary comes pretty close
Quote:
Like a lot of sociopaths you have an inability to empathize, seeing everything as how it affects you. It's nothing more than self centred egotism, and that's about as emotional as you can get, no reasoning at all.

I would replace sociopath with narcissist for we don't rightly know that hawkeye is a sociopath in real life, but the connection hawk made between rape trials and Nazi witch-hunts shows me a huge disconnect.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 May, 2014 11:27 am
@panzade,
panzade wrote:

In trying to understand hawkeye's motivation through these 468 pages your summary comes pretty close
Quote:
Like a lot of sociopaths you have an inability to empathize, seeing everything as how it affects you. It's nothing more than self centred egotism, and that's about as emotional as you can get, no reasoning at all.

I would replace sociopath with narcissist for we don't rightly know that hawkeye is a sociopath in real life, but the connection hawk made between rape trials and Nazi witch-hunts shows me a huge disconnect.


Follow the ideas, not your imaginations on the personality of the speaker, the practice will help lift you up out of ignorance.
firefly
 
  0  
Reply Thu 22 May, 2014 11:42 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
It also turn women into children that are not responsible for their own actions and somehow that seem insulting to women.

Women who commit sexual assaults are held just as responsible for their criminal behaviors as men who commit sexual assaults. So, your views are rather distorted and do not reflect reality.
Quote:
We as a society think that you need all kinds of legal prortection of when and to who you can consent to sex with for your own good.

The boundaries on when "consent" cannot not legally be given apply equally to both male and female individuals. Again, your views are rather distorted, and do not reflect reality.

Apart from revealing your ignorance of sexual assault laws, and your total lack of concern for the fact that crimes of sexual assault/rape occur all of the time, you don't say much.



http://eviestewartsfunnybone.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/head-up-ass.jpg
http://theoutloudblog.files.wordpress.com/2007/01/head-up-ass.jpg


0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  0  
Reply Thu 22 May, 2014 12:31 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:

Follow the ideas, not your imaginations on the personality of the speaker, the practice will help lift you up out of ignorance.

Your ideas, and attitudes, and how you choose to express them, do reflect your personality.

Your inability to "empathize", which comes across quite clearly, and not just in this thread, reveals a deficit in personality functioning--it's a hallmark of certain personality disorders. And, that deficit causes you to be deprived of information, and to remain more ignorant because of that. You really can't fully comprehend issues that take into account any considerations beyond your own ego-centric perspective.

Your alleged "ideas" tend to be simplistic ego-centric responses to complex issues, which is why most people just ignore them. And you are foolishly constantly congratulating yourself, and announcing you are winning some sort of debate, when you are mainly talking to yourself, and not responding to what others say.

When you absurdly pronounce, "My assertion is that almost no men are sexually assaulting women, that the assertion that this is a problem is wholly a make work program for the victim savior industry," you are revealing only willful ignorance of verifiable reality, not an "idea" worthy of anyone's time or consideration. You probably believe the earth is flat too, but don't expect anyone to take you seriously on that either.

You started a thread about a college professor who was arrested for possession of child pornography, after he had viewed such material while on a plane, and was observed to be doing that by another passenger. You boldly announced that this was another instance of the government "pounding" on another innocent men, because it was unlikely a college prof would do such a thing, and the pictures would turn out to be innocuous snapshots of his own children.

Well, as it turned out, that college prof had indeed been viewing child pornography, which he possessed on his laptop, and which he admitted to downloading from a paid child porn Web site. And he did plead guilty, and he has been convicted. Your original assumptions about the government's actions, and his innocence, were all based on your usual paranoia, and you thought that your paranoia about the government would be vindicated in this case. Well, it definitely wasn't. He admitted to being guilty as charged. So you just made yourself look foolish once again, with your hot air pronouncements and predictions, because you are unable to connect with reality.

That's why people don't consider your "ideas" seriously.





BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 May, 2014 12:32 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:
Your use of accuser instead of victim says it all. You have no sympathy for anyone other than yourself and those like you. cross examination can be extremely harrowing.


So can being falsely charge with such a crime by someone that likely can lied more convincing then you can tell the truth.

To say nothing of knowing that if you are found guilty you are looking at decades behind bars while for some damn strange reason if it is proven that the charge had knowingly been placed falsely, most of the time, your accused is looking at a slap on her hands at the worst.

I still can see the lady who on a youtube video interview with police was claiming that the police officer that pull her over had sexual assaulted her and only the fact that his dash cam that shown that he need even have her leaved her car likely save, at a minimum, his police career.
firefly
 
  0  
Reply Thu 22 May, 2014 01:10 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:

To say nothing of knowing that if you are found guilty you are looking at decades behind bars while for some damn strange reason if it is proven that the charge had knowingly been placed falsely, most of the time, your accused is looking at a slap on her hands at the worst.

Yes, if you're found guilty of sexual assault/rape, you could face decades behind bars.

What's wrong with that? Should the guilty not be punished?

The guilty verdict isn't handed down by the original complainant--it's rendered by a jury, or judge. And a guilty verdict is not likely to happen solely on the basis of a knowingly falsified report of a crime of sexual assault by a claimant.

And, at trial, the accuser is the state--not the original claimant. The state, at trial, is acting on its belief that the defendant is guilty of violating the law.

If all the claimant has done is knowingly filed a false police report, that's all that individual will be charged with. Anyone who lies under oath will be charged with perjury, which is more serious, and not just a slap on the wrist. And that applies in all cases, not just those dealing with sexual assault.

You seem to not recognize, or don't want to acknowledge, that many individuals do violate sexual assault/rape laws, and that guilty verdicts, and harsh punishments, are fully justified in such cases.

http://img1.coolspacetricks.com/images/commentgraphics/funny/81417.jpg

0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 May, 2014 01:27 pm
@firefly,
Your assertion that my arguments are not taken seriously, are ignored, is disproven by the view count for this thread. This argument is heavily followed, which would not happen if the debate was judged a blow-out by the audience. What we see here is a classic case of Firefly trying to blow the bullshit by.

That will not work with me, as you should know by now. Maybe you are a slow learner.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Thu 22 May, 2014 01:37 pm
@panzade,
I wasn't saying Hawkeye was a bone fide sociopath, just that he shares certain traits with sociopaths, but he's definitely a narcissist.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 May, 2014 01:38 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Follow the ideas,


When you have one I'll let you know.
0 Replies
 
 

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