25
   

Hey, Can A Woman "Ask To Get Raped"?

 
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2011 11:27 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
Yes it is hard to drum up the idea that the crime of rape is out of control when the reported cases of rapes is at a 33 years low.

No one on this thread, including me, has ever claimed, "the crime of rape is out of control". That's another of your straw-men. You distort what I have said in order to make the argument you want to make, and you engage in such distortions consistently and routinely.

The issue is whether the federal crime statistics accurately reflect the nature and seriousness of the sexual assaults which occur on a state level. And, when federal and state definitions differ significantly, the degree of correspondence between such statistics is called into question.
Quote:
I can see how you would wish to change this to white wash that fact and get the numbers up at least somewhat. I nice big one time bump in the numbers would be wonderful for you.

Anyone genuinely concerned with sexual assault crimes, as I am, wants to see the rate of such crimes decreased. I want better public awareness and education to lead to less victim-blaming, more reporting of such crimes, and effective prosecution of perpetrators. No one should feel they can commit a sexual assault/rape with impunity because they know they will escape prosecution. All of those factors will help to keep the rate of such crimes decreasing.
I have no interest, in seeing a "nice big one time bump in the numbers"--I only want the federal statistics to more accurately reflect the types of crimes that already occur on the state level.

The flaw in your straw-man argument is that the reported cases of rape have, in fact, declined in many locations. What you fail to see is that decline has occurred with updated definitions of rape--such as the inclusion of "date rape" cases--on the state level. Better law enforcement has helped to facilitate that decline. Updating the federal definition should simply help the national statistics to have greater correspondence with what is already reported on the state level--it will not alter those state statistics. It should also include the male victims of serious sexual assaults--a group completely disregarded under the current federal definition. Correcting that omission will help to insure better support and intervention services for that group of male victims.

hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2011 12:21 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Yes it is hard to drum up the idea that the crime of rape is out of control when the reported cases of rapes is at a 33 years low.
Not sure that you are technically correct, I think it is the rape per capita which is at multi decade lows, in spite of the hyper sensitivity to sexual assault and in spite of all of the jobs that we have created in the rape stores for staff to service those who claim assault and in spite of all of the financial support we now give to those who claim rape that we never did before.

The old claim was the there are a bazzillion rapes going on that dont get reported but that is far fetched because we have spent a lot of money incentivizing reporting. In recent years the claim was that as soon as women had enough experience with the new program to believe that they would be believe and would be supported by the saviour community and our government if they reported that the number of reports of rape would finally skyrocket to something closer to the real number, but after years of waiting we get less reported rapes not more. So now the feminists are hard set on their project to get the official FBI rape number inflated so that they can maintain at least a shred of credibility when they go around peddling their rape scare and trash talking men.

The evidence show that almost all men are decent towards women sexually, that women tend to get what women want in bed, but you will never in a 1000 years hear a feminist admit it.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2011 12:27 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
-a group completely disregarded under the current federal definition.
It makes no difference re addressing the rape of men, as this is handled by law enforcement using state and local law which is not effected by federal reporting standards. The rape number is intended to put the current rape situation into historical context, which would be destroyed if we made the FBI rape definition completely anew as the feminists want to do. Helping the feminists peddle their rape scare is not the governments job, law enforcement is already too closely in league with this band of nuts on a power trip, we really dont need to see the situation made worse.
Nogard2u
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2011 03:08 pm
@firefly,
Thanks Firefly,
I wrote a book and I give talks about 'child abuse' all over--something I couldn't have done without becoming whole.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Sep, 2011 04:53 pm
@Nogard2u,
Nogard2u wrote:

Thanks Firefly,
I wrote a book and I give talks about 'child abuse' all over--something I couldn't have done without becoming whole.
Everyone needs to make a living, the important thing is that with out becoming whole you had no chance to find happiness. There are tens of millions of people who will give you an enthusiastic high five for working to help victims but I am not one of them......every victim must help themselves, nobody can do this for them and any help offered is useless unless they are ready to help themselves. You deserve a lot a credit however for learning how to thrive in the face of sexual abuse, not a lot of people get that done.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2011 09:56 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
It makes no difference re addressing the rape of men, as this is handled by law enforcement using state and local law which is not effected by federal reporting standards. The rape number is intended to put the current rape situation into historical context, which would be destroyed if we made the FBI rape definition completely anew as the feminists want to do. Helping the feminists peddle their rape scare is not the governments job, law enforcement is already too closely in league with this band of nuts on a power trip, we really dont need to see the situation made worse.

You seem not to understand the issue.

The issue is whether to update the federal definitions of serious sexual assault crimes so that they are more in line with the definitions the states are already using. The goal would be for the federal crime statistics to more accurately reflect the crimes already being reported on a state level.

You are confusing law enforcement with federal statistical record-keeping. As a crime, rape is prosecuted on a state level.

The number of reported sexual assault crimes is not just used to "to put the current rape situation into historical context"--it is used to assess current and recent crime rates and to allocate federal monies.
And, it most definitely would affect addressing the crime of male on male rape/sexual assault--particularly in the allocation of federal funds and the training of intervention workers to make them more sensitive and responsive to the needs of male victims. Advocates for men have argued that the current services are too skewed in their focus on female victims and this may contribute to an under-reporting of assaults on men. By omitting male on male serious sexual assaults from the federal rape statistics, there is the implication that the crime is not the equivalent of the rape of a female, and that assumption may not be true. The issue certainly deserves further examination and discussion, which is what the FBI is proposing to do.

There is no "rape scare", and neither "feminists" nor any one else claims that there is. But, crimes of rape and sexual assaults continue to occur and they continue to need to be addressed. A federal definition of rape written in the 1930's does not reflect today's reality in terms of current sexual mores, or current state laws.

In Canada, for instance, they no longer use the term "rape" for serious sexual assault crimes, and that change was made partly in order to put assaults of men on a par with assaults of women. At the outset of this thread, I had negative feelings about doing that sort of thing in the U.S., but, after giving the matter considerably more thought, I think it is a move which does have merit, and something we might consider moving toward in the U.S..
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2011 10:08 am
@firefly,
No the goal is to bump the numbers up to hide the fact that reported sexual assaults had been tending down for a decade or so.

Good news for women in this regards is very bad news for the sexual assaults victims industry and might slow down the river of fundings from congress in these hard economic times.

Oh no rape scare indeed with bullshit surveys that 25 percents of all college women had been sexual assaults is not a clear and over the top attempt to falsely scare the population!!!!

But there is a crying need to game FBI hard numbers for this scare to not be challenge.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2011 10:26 am
@BillRM,
It's nice to know that you don't consider the needs of male sexual assault victims, and that you feel male on male serious sexual assaults, involving anal or oral penetration (with or without objects), as worthy of even being considered for inclusion in the federal rape statistics.

Unfortunately, what you refer to as the, "sexual assaults victims industry" is created by those who commit sexual assaults, and, as long as those assaults continue to occur, this will, sadly, be a thriving "industry".

Changing the federal definition will not affect the number of crimes which occur, and which are reported, on a state level. It seems that you have an interest in seeing the federal government continue to inaccurately report the frequency of crimes which the states have already documented.

Women don't need statistics or inflated numbers to scare them about the crime of rape--one rape on a college campus during a semester is enough to frighten most women and make them concerned for their safety.

You are not concerned about the crime of rape, and that has been abundantly evident throughout this thread.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2011 10:49 am
Quote:
September 28, 2011
Rape Definition Too Narrow in Federal Statistics, Critics Say
By ERICA GOODE

WASHINGTON — Thousands of sexual assaults that occur in the United States every year are not reflected in the federal government’s yearly crime report because the report uses an archaic definition of rape that is far narrower than the definitions used by most police departments.

Many law enforcement officials and advocates for women say that this underreporting misleads the public about the prevalence of rape and results in fewer federal, state and local resources being devoted to catching rapists and helping rape victims. Rape crisis centers are among groups that cite the federal figures in applying for private and public financing.

“The public has the right to know about the prevalence of crime and violent crime in our communities, and we know that data drives practices, resources, policies and programs,” said Carol Tracy, executive director of the Women’s Law Project in Philadelphia, whose office has campaigned to get the F.B.I. to change its definition of sexual assault. “It’s critical that we strive to have accurate information about this.”

Ms. Tracy spoke Friday at a meeting in Washington, organized by the Police Executive Research Forum, that brought together police chiefs, sex-crime investigators, federal officials and advocates to discuss the limitations of the federal definition and the wider issue of local police departments’ not adequately investigating rape.

According to the 2010 Uniform Crime Report, released by the Federal Bureau of Investigation last week, there were 84,767 sexual assaults in the United States last year, a 5 percent drop from 2009.

The definition of rape used by the F.B.I. — “the carnal knowledge of a female, forcibly and against her will” — was written more than 80 years ago. The yearly report on violent crime, which uses data provided voluntarily by the nation’s 18,000 law enforcement agencies, is widely cited as an indicator of national crime trends.

But that definition, critics say, does not take into account sexual-assault cases that involve anal or oral penetration or penetration with an object, cases where the victims were drugged or under the influence of alcohol or cases with male victims. As a result, many sexual assaults are not counted as rapes in the yearly federal accounting.

“The data that are reported to the public come from this definition, and sadly, it portrays a very, very distorted picture,” said Susan B. Carbon, director of the Office on Violence Against Women, part of the Department of Justice. “It’s the message that we’re sending to victims, and if you don’t fit that very narrow definition, you weren’t a victim and your rape didn’t count.”

Steve Anderson, chief of the Metropolitan Nashville Police Department, said that the F.B.I.’s definition created a double standard for police departments.

“We prosecute by one criteria, but we report by another criteria,” Chief Anderson said. “The only people who have a true picture of what’s going on are the people in the sex-crimes unit.”

In Chicago, the Police Department recorded close to 1,400 sexual assaults in 2010, according to the department’s Web site. But none of these appeared in the federal crime report because Chicago’s broader definition of rape is not accepted by the F.B.I.

The New York Police Department reported 1,369 rapes, but only 1,036 — the ones that fit the federal definition — were entered in the federal figures. And in Elizabeth Township, Pa., the sexual assault of a woman last year was widely discussed by residents. Yet according to the F.B.I.’s report, no rapes were reported in Elizabeth in 2010.

In a recent survey by the Police Executive Research Forum, almost 80 percent of the 306 police departments that responded said that the federal definition of rape used by the Uniform Crime Report was inadequate and should be changed.

Greg Scarbro, the F.B.I.’s unit chief for the Uniformed Crime Report, said that the agency agreed that the definition should be revised and that an F.B.I. subcommittee would take up the issue at a meeting on Oct. 18.

“Our goal will be to leave that meeting with a definition and a mechanism,” Mr. Scarbro said. But he noted that law enforcement agencies would have to support any change.

A more comprehensive definition of rape is used by the National Incident-Based Reporting System, or NIBRS, started in 1988 to address deficiencies in the Uniform Crime Report. But that system covers 28 percent of the population and has not gained wide traction as a reporting method. If the F.B.I. does adopt a broader definition, law enforcement agencies — especially those that use the federal standard in their own counts — may find themselves explaining a sudden increase in reported rapes.

“You can’t ignore the politics of crime,” said Charles H. Ramsey, commissioner of the Philadelphia Police Department and the president of the police research forum, who backs changing the federal definition.

“With the new definition, it’s going to dramatically change the numbers,” Commissioner Ramsey said. Police chiefs will then need to explain to the public that the increase represents an improvement in reporting, rather than a jump in actual numbers of sexual assaults.

The Chicago Police Department uses a definition of sexual assault laid out by Illinois statute. Currently, the Uniform Crime Report does not include any rape statistics from Chicago; a footnote in the report says that the city’s methodology “does not comply with the Uniform Crime Reporting Program guidelines.” The Chicago department plans to start reporting the subset of rapes that meet the federal definition to the F.B.I., said Robert Tracy, chief of crime control strategies.

Tom Byrne, chief of detectives in Chicago, said at the meeting earlier in the day on Friday, “If we conformed to the U.C.R. definition, technically we’re going to be taking rapes off the books.”

The gap between the federal counts and the real numbers reported to the police may be most apparent in small towns, said Robert W. McNeilly, police chief in Elizabeth Township, just outside Pittsburgh.

“When we have a sexual assault in a small town, people know about it, people talk about it,” he said. “But when the U.C.R. report comes out at the end of the year and we report zero rapes, I think we lose credibility.”

In some cases, however, police departments contribute to the problem. The Baltimore Police Department made sweeping changes in the way it dealt with sexual assault after The Baltimore Sun revealed last year that the department had been labeling reports of rape as “unfounded” at a rate five times the national average.

The problem, Commissioner Frederick H. Bealefeld III said, was rooted in the attitudes and lack of understanding of officers toward rape and rape victims.

“We didn’t just suddenly veer off the road and strike a tree — this was a very long process that led to this problem,” Commissioner Bealefeld said.

After making changes, the department saw an 80 percent reduction in “unfounded” classifications. But because they had been misclassified, Commissioner Bealefeld said, those cases never appeared in the Uniform Crime Report.

“When you unfound those cases, you take it off your U.C.R. numbers, as though they never occurred,” he said.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/29/us/federal-rules-on-rape-statistics-criticized.html

Any temporary increase in reported rates, if a new federal definition is adopted, could reflect politically on law enforcement--since it could appear that they are not doing their job well in terms of public safety. Police departments, after all, have a vested interest in reporting lower rates of crimes. However, the public can be easily educated to understand that some "increases" merely reflect changed definitions, and not greater frequency of certain crimes. And, in that regard, it is important to note that police departments are supporting an updated federal definition:

"In a recent survey by the Police Executive Research Forum, almost 80 percent of the 306 police departments that responded said that the federal definition of rape used by the Uniform Crime Report was inadequate and should be changed. "
That alone tells you this is not a "feminist" issue---it is a law enforcement issue.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2011 12:43 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
"In a recent survey by the Police Executive Research Forum, almost 80 percent of the 306 police departments that responded said that the federal definition of rape used by the Uniform Crime Report was inadequate and should be changed. "
That alone tells you this is not a "feminist" issue---it is a law enforcement issue.
Reporting standards have nothing to do with the day to day job of policing....I might well ask my local school principal what they think of the SAT test, but that does not mean that they have any more expertise in standardized testing than I do.....
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2011 04:22 pm
I see that nothing has changed. Now Hawkeye is equating himself with school principals and people who actually know something. I suppose Hawkeye is still advocating rape. Or, has he finally gotten some sense of decency and changed his thinking in this respect? I really don't have time to go over the thousands of posts to find out.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Sep, 2011 04:51 pm
@Intrepid,
Quote:
I really don't have time to go over the thousands of posts to find out.
No loss, you were not adding anything to the discussion when you were here, all you have to offer is moral indignation.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Oct, 2011 09:49 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Reporting standards have nothing to do with the day to day job of policing....

Oh, but they do. If the police take reports of rapes, and spend time investigating such allegations and making arrests, but this local law enforcement work is not reflected in the federal numbers because of differing definitions of the crime of rape, it is very much a matter of "the day to day job of policing"--it reflects on the amount of work the police are actually doing, it suggests they are less involved with serious sexual assaults than is actually the case.



firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sat 1 Oct, 2011 10:25 am
@Intrepid,
You are right that nothing has changed.

Hawkeye can't understand "moral indignation" because only those with some moral compass are capable of feeling such indignation. He's still consumed with only what he needs and with what he wants sexually, which he egotistically, and inaccurately, considers to translate into his "rights" to intrude on the body of another person--it's still all about him and his rather deviant view of crimes of sexual assault.
And BillRM, ever the faithful and mindless follower, eggs him on, strokes his ego, and dutifully throws him fodder the way one might toss raw meat to a wild animal.

You haven't missed a thing.Smile
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Oct, 2011 01:43 pm
@firefly,
Firefly it is nice that you are so supported of local police and their procedures and record keeping except if they dare to filter out too many women claims, in your opinion, of being sexual assaulted as not being well found then the support you had shown had melted away on this thread.

Come up you just wish to generate as least one large bump in the FBI sexual statistics in order to keep the money flowing.

It is amusing that the party in power at the time of the changing in the UK statistics protocols found themselves being attacked for not doing enough now that rapes cases was sharply raising by police back statistics.

Somehow in the UK stories the replies to the claims of there being great increase in sexual crimes not true did not get cover nearly as well as the headlines about a rape crisis existing.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Oct, 2011 02:01 pm
@BillRM,
Bill, take a look, you will love this:
Quote:
Last week, Alex Knepper’s column generated a buzz on campus and around the country. While many read the piece as an irresponsible condonation of sexual assault, others argued that it was merely identifying an age-old truth: some women routinely get drunk, have sex, and then “cry rape” the next morning because they regret their actions. When CBS interviewed Knepper, he claimed that “thousands” of men suffer from false rape reports. Unfortunately, just as The Eagle was negligent in ensuring that Knepper was writing a responsible piece, CBS also failed to set the record straight with fact-checking legwork. Thus, both media outlets irresponsibly provided Knepper with an opportunity to perpetuate long-standing — and untrue — myths about high percentages of false rape reports. And based on hundreds of online comments, it’s evident that many students fervently believe these myths.

http://www.awolau.org/2010/04/05/myth-busters-false-rape-reports/

It is just a rag from liberal American University students but here we get one clearly advocating of suppression of points of view that she does not approve of.....this demonizing of opposing points of view and attempting to silence them is right out of the Feminist playbook.

I am however happy to see that we are getting mens rights points of view expressed by the young, this is somewhat new as for a long time those who would say anything in defense of men were largely not willing to incite the mob to come after them. It is good to see that we heretics are beginning to find our voices.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Oct, 2011 02:48 pm
@hawkeye10,
I love it Hawkeye that there is no fact checking for such silliness as that 25 percents of all female college women are sexually assaulted during their colleges years and are cheerfully reported by major news outlets as fact.

If the fact checkers did do checking on his gentleman claims they would run into the studies we already had posted on this thread that false charges of assaults can approach 40 percents of all charges between non-strangers.

Hell look at how we were both attacked on the beginning of this thread for daring to raised questions about the facts surrounding sexual assaults charges.

hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 1 Oct, 2011 03:42 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Hell look at how we were both attacked on the beginning of this thread for daring to raised questions about the facts surrounding sexual assaults charges.
I was subjected to sustained mob action long before this thread started for daring to speak up for men and for daring to speak up for the sexual freedom rights of teenagers. Occombill no longer comes around because he is offended that I was not thrown out of A2K for my heresy, and I believe this is the case with Justbrooke as well. Idiotbill threw many hissy fits before he finally went away.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Oct, 2011 05:54 pm
@hawkeye10,
That "news" is a year and a half old. But, let's see the rest of that article--the part you so so conveniently omitted.
Quote:
The hysteria surrounding false rape reporting is due to a number of issues, many of which cannot be fully elaborated upon here. They include institutional patriarchy and the lower position of women in the workplace, individuals’ desires to make themselves feel safe at the expense of blaming victims for crimes, and a disregard for a woman’s right to consume alcohol, have fun, and engage in sexual activities without being assaulted.

But most saliently, misunderstandings occur due to errors in police coding procedures, public misconceptions about the motivations for false allegations, and the simultaneous overrepresentation of false reports and underrepresentation of factual cases in mainstream media. It’s also important to recognize that victim-blaming strategies and a belief in high rates of false rape reports are closely related; they feed off of one another to create a cultural environment in which the majority of assaulted women feel too afraid of public rejection to report the crimes committed against them, and the majority of rapists remain free to continue preying on vulnerable victims.

According to a recent study by the American Prosecutors Research Institute, false rape allegations account for two to eight percent of all reported rapes. This low figure may shock many readers who have heard claims that over 40 percent of rape reports are false. In the past, errors in police coding procedures have often been a reason for high claims of false reports; many reports categorized as “false” actually should be recorded as “unsubstantiated” (which means that there is insufficient evidence to move forward with the case) or “baseless” (indicating that the claim is considered truthful, but the incident doesn’t meet specific elements of the crime). Some reasons for incorrectly categorizing reports include pressure on police officers to close out cases and make their departments appear successful, difficulties with agencies not tracking and differentiating between “false” and “baseless” reports, and a lack of supervision within and across law enforcement agencies regarding careful training and implementation of accurate coding procedures.

A primary myth about false rape reports focuses on the belief that women “cry rape” because they are seeking revenge on men who have wronged them in some way. However, according to this study, the reality is that the vast majority of false allegations “are actually filed by people with serious psychological and emotional problems.” And notably, people who falsely file claims usually do not name specific individuals, but instead “involve only a vaguely described stranger.” These research findings support the theory that people who falsely allege rape do so not out of desire for revenge against a specific person, but because they seek general attention and sympathy.

Finally, myths about high rates of false reports are perpetuated by media stories that provide excessive coverage of highly sensationalized cases. News agencies make little effort to reach out to the academic community to include professional opinions about the validity of the majority of rape reports. Instead, the general public is bombarded with stories about “gold-digging” women who falsely accuse athletes or prominent public figures. Very rarely do we hear the countless true stories of women and children who are abused and manipulated by men they know and trust.

I hope you’ll take a few minutes to reflect upon some of the reasons why, so often, people are willing to quickly jump to the defense of accused perpetrators, and are so eager to immediately dismiss the claims of victims. I challenge you, now that you are armed with the knowledge that 92-98 percent of rape allegations are true, to contemplate the reasons why you may be so willing to believe that your neighbor, co-worker, friend, or family member is not a rapist, but that your neighbor, coworker, friend, or family member is lying about being raped. Why do so many of us prefer to dismiss rape victims and defend rapists? Take a few moments to talk with a loved one. Force yourself to face these difficult questions. Only by challenging our preconceptions and educating ourselves about the issues can we achieve justice for rape victims.
http://www.awolau.org/2010/04/05/myth-busters-false-rape-reports/

hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Oct, 2011 06:11 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
false rape allegations account for two to eight percent of all reported rapes
translates as "we dont know, so we took a guess". They can get back to us when they figure out an answer that they want to go with rather than giving us a wide range where they think the answer might be.

Quote:
Why do so many of us prefer to dismiss rape victims and defend rapists?
The blatant bias is loaded into the question, if the questioner wanted to be fair they would have said "Why do so many of us tend to doubt those who claim to be victims and defend the alleged rapists?" Since we know that the one who asks the question has no interest in the truth, is rather pushing their agenda, they are not worth talking too.
 

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