25
   

Hey, Can A Woman "Ask To Get Raped"?

 
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 01:17 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
You are drinking Firefly's koolaid I see.....be carefull, as I am fairly sure it kills brain cells, and you seem to not have a plentiful supply to start with


The combination of words such as jumbo shrimp or tiny giant are called oxymorons because the two words oppose each other. Consent, meaning approval, (i.e., yes) and negative, meaning no, would therefore comprise an oxymoron. I wasn't talking about what it meant.
BillRM
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 02:05 pm
@Arella Mae,
Let me get one thing straight AM you are as sick as Firefly in not caring at all for the pain innocent men are put through by women who are falsely charge with rape?

That a crime that is as emotional as harmful to a man as a rape is to a woman should be consider a minor misdeed with no more punishment then falsely reporting a car stolen or a wallet for that matter.

If so we have two very openly sick women on this thread instead of one.

BillRM
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 02:13 pm
@Arella Mae,
Quote:
Lawmakers don't punish anyone. The criminal justice system does. Neither attorneys, judges, nor juries are at liberty to impose any sentence they feel like.


What kind of logic is this lawmakers are the ones to set the level of punishment and have the power to move up the punishment for the crime of placing false charge of rape to almost any level they care to.

But if harming a man to that degree is no big deal perhaps we should also ask the lawmakers to move the crime of rape down to a similar level of punishment so equal harm received equal punishment.
BillRM
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 02:17 pm
@Arella Mae,
Quote:
they don't thnk it it is not traumatizing at all. It has been stated over and over again how the rest of us feel about this. You ignore it because we don't take it to the point of obsession as you have.


By stating that the current level of punishment is set correctly for this crime you are stating that you do not think it is traumatizing just as you would be correct in saying the same thing to anyone who express the opinion that rape should be a minor crime.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 02:25 pm
@Arella Mae,
AM had you read Firefly posts where she had expressed in her postings that she is more then happy with the current level of punishment for the crime of false rape charges and see no reason why it should be raised.

So now would you have a problem with the lawmakers increasing this crime to a four year to five year prison time crime or not?
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 02:37 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Let me get one thing straight AM you are as sick as Firefly in not caring at all for the pain innocent men are put through by women who are falsely charge with rape?

That a crime that is as emotional as harmful to a man as a rape is to a woman should be consider a minor misdeed with no more punishment then falsely reporting a car stolen or a wallet for that matter.

If so we have two very openly sick women on this thread instead of one.

Let me get one thing straight with you. I NEVER SAID IT WASN'T TRAUMATIC OR HURTFUL OR PAINFUL OR THAT IT SHOULD BE ON LAW BOOKS AS ONLY FALSE REPORTING. Firefly stated what the law says about it. She didn't make it up. She didn't make the law either and neither did I. I happen to think anyone that would falsely accuse someone of rape doesn't need just a slap on the wrist for false reporting. I think it is a law that needs to be changed.

It would really, really help if you would honestly read what has been posted. I've stated that I don't know how many times in this thread.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 02:38 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
Lawmakers don't punish anyone. The criminal justice system does. Neither attorneys, judges, nor juries are at liberty to impose any sentence they feel like.


What kind of logic is this lawmakers are the ones to set the level of punishment and have the power to move up the punishment for the crime of placing false charge of rape to almost any level they care to.

But if harming a man to that degree is no big deal perhaps we should also ask the lawmakers to move the crime of rape down to a similar level of punishment so equal harm received equal punishment.

Your comment made it sound like the lawmakers actually impose whatever sentence they want when that is not the case. Judges, who actually impose sentences, cannot just sentence someone to what they feel the sentence should be in their opinion. It has to be with what is written in the laws about the crime and punishment for it.
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 02:44 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

AM had you read Firefly posts where she had expressed in her postings that she is more then happy with the current level of punishment for the crime of false rape charges and see no reason why it should be raised.

So now would you have a problem with the lawmakers increasing this crime to a four year to five year prison time crime or not?

Let me type it very slowly for you since my repeating it to you time after time after time hasn't helped. Ready? Please, do try to follow along with me here.

I - THINK - THE - LAW - SHOULD - BE - MORE - STRICT - CONCERNING - ANYONE - FALSELY - ACCUSING - ANYONE - OF - RAPE - BECAUSE - IT - IS - A - HATEFUL - AND - DESTRUCTIVE - CRIME.

Now, do you finally get it?
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 02:50 pm
@Arella Mae,
Of course, negative consent is an oxymoron. Hawkeye just doesn't get it. Laughing

Hawkeye keeps on misinterpreting his state law of rape in the 3rd degree. That law hinges on clearly expressed non consent to define the crime of rape. Hawkeye just doesn't understand that he can't substitute definitions from all sorts of sources--rape is what that law says it is, and it is a clearly worded, simple to understand, one sentence law. His continued distortion of what that law actually says reflects real impairments in his ability to accurately comprehend even simple statements. The law is only one sentence long, and it specifies that lack of consent must be actively expressed in words or behavior. Even after 388 pages, Hawkeye doesn't understand that the crime of rape is defined by the laws of the state, and those laws all hinge on lack of consent--it is the lack of consent that makes the act criminal.

He also obviously feels that gratuitously insulting people must help him to somehow appear in the right or superior. That, of course, makes no sense at all. He resorts to insults because his ego has been wounded and he's angry. And the more insulting he is, the worse he makes himself look because his insults are so absurd. Laughing

All Hawkeye, BillRM and Ionus use their posts for is to go on anti-female rants. That's their idea of discussing the topic of rape--spewing hostility and insult on women. There hasn't been any equivalent anti-male sentiment expressed in this thread. No one has attacked men the way they have been attacking women, there really haven't been any attacks on men at all, but they don't seem to even notice that. They have so much anger toward women it really blinds them to what we actually post. And the carrying on about "feminism" ant the "libby lobby" is really bizarre because it is not in response to any opinions which have been voiced in this thread.

If anyone ever doubted whether sexism and misogyny are alive and well, all they have to do is read posts by those three. Birds of a feather do flock together--and they egg each other on to demean women. Who else but angry, bitter, dissatisfied men would need to put on such a display of anti-female venom to give themselves the illusion of feeling strong and powerful. They see women as an enormous threat and that is really their personal problem. Their incoherent angry tirades and their paranoid conspiracy theories about "feminists" aren't going to convince anyone to alter the sexual assault laws--particularly since the three of them display little knowledge or understanding of the actual laws. If you want to get the laws changed, it helps to read them first. Laughing

0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 02:52 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:

That a crime that is as emotional as harmful to a man as a rape is to a woman

Even Hawkeye doesn't agree with you about that. Go back and read his posts.
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 03:05 pm
@firefly,
If they could simply understand that the term rape in this thread has been defined by the laws and not any of us individually. It's no different than if you are going to discuss any topic. All parties involved need to be aware of what definition is being spoken. Each of them may have a reason to feel pain and anger about this issue. Obviously, they do have a reason for it. But, it has clearly become total fullblown agressive obsession to the point of no one's opinion matters but their own.

Yeah, I had to give hawkeye a thumbs up for the post he made it clear he disagreed with bill about that. I didn't know he had it in him.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 03:09 pm
@Arella Mae,
Quote:
I - THINK - THE - LAW - SHOULD - BE - MORE - STRICT - CONCERNING - ANYONE - FALSELY - ACCUSING - ANYONE - OF - RAPE - BECAUSE - IT - IS - A - HATEFUL - AND - DESTRUCTIVE - CRIME.

The crime isn't "false rape charges"--the crime is filing a false police report. And the penalties for that should not depend on the type of crime that is falsely reported. It is legally considered a crime against law enforcement, and I see no reason it should not remain that way.

The emotional and character/reputation damages to the person falsely accused should be handled in civil court, just as slander and libel are dealt with in civil court. Deliberate slander and libel are also extremely hurtful and hateful actions. That is what civil court is for.

I'm not moved by BillRM's hysteria on this issue, or his manipulative attempts to accuse me of being unfeeling. I'm not unfeeling at all. I respect the fact that our justice system has civil and criminal components and these distinctions exist for good reason.

The entire justice system is not going to change to make BillRM happy. Some things are civil actions and some are criminal.

BillRM
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 03:13 pm
@Arella Mae,
AM are you on drugs?

Lawmakers set the range of punishment for crimes, in Florida you have level of misdemeanors that are less then a year at most.

Then you have felonies starting with a year or more in prison, then you had a level of felonies that call for from 5 years to 15 years, then 15 years to life, then you have capital crimes that call for death or live in prison without parole.

At the moment, filing any false charge in a misdemeanor that a judge can not sentence you to more then one day less then a year.

Most rapes are a level two felony where the punishment is five years to 15 years and that is the normal range of punishment that a judge can decide on.

For some crimes there is a mandatory sentence that a judge can not go below no matter what.

Now do you understand or not?

BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 03:19 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
The emotional and character/reputation damages to the person falsely accused should be handled in civil court, just as slander and libel are dealt with in civil court. Deliberate slander and libel are also
extremely hurtful and hateful actions. That is what civil court is for.


The emotional and character/reputation damages to the woman rape victim should be handled in civil court, just as filing a false charge of rape is now handle.



firefly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 03:32 pm
This is the same story I posted earlier. This woman not only filed a false police report of rape, her excuse that she did it to cover-up consensual sex with someone else was also false. She does appear to be emotionally disturbed, and I'm not sure I even see any point in charging her with a misdemeanor for filing a false report. And now, the black community is steaming because they see it as another example of white women trying to target and stereotype black men with false accusations.
Quote:

Nun Mary Turcotte recants accusation of rape after police release sketch of made-up suspect
BY Alison Gendar and James Fanelli
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITERS
Tuesday, February 1st 2011

A Brooklyn nun from a fringe Christian sect has confessed to an unholy lie: telling cops she was sexually attacked and left unconscious in a snowbank, sources said Monday.

After a police search for a hulking black man was launched, the 26-year-old white woman from the Apostles of Infinite Love convent in East Flatbush recanted, the sources said.

She told cops she made up the story in an attempt to cover up a consensual sex romp with a bodega worker inside the Glenwood Ave. residence.

A woman in religious garb who answered the door at the convent said the nun, identified as Mary Turcotte, suffered an "emotional break" and made everything up - even her excuse.

"Nothing happened, none of it," said the woman, who declined to give her name.

"It was all proven to be false. It wasn't her fault. She is going to move out and we are going to get her some help."

The convent appears to be linked to a Canadian-based religious order founded in the 1960s by a defrocked Catholic priest who ordained himself Pope.

Turcotte claimed she was headed there the night of Jan. 22 when a thug ambushed her, choked her until she passed out and dragged her - in her habit - eight blocks.

She said she awoke in the snow with her underwear down and her breasts exposed. She said she was treated at a hospital and sought counsel from her Mother Superior.

Police were informed of the rape last Thursday, and put out an alert asking for the public's help in finding a suspect - described as black, 40 to 50 years old, 6-feet-4 and up to 250 pounds.

Cops released a sketch, but they were skeptical someone could have dragged or carried a woman in nun's gear through the streets without drawing notice.

When a penitent Turcotte recanted, her excuse was that she needed a story to cover up a real sexual encounter: bedding a shop worker she sneaked into the convent through the back door, sources said.

Police have not charged her with any crime.

No one at the convent would discuss the order's affiliation, but the Apostles of Infinite Love sect based in Quebec has been described as a cultlike group that has successfully fended off sex abuse allegations.
http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2011/02/01/2011-02-01_nun_rape_tale_was_bed_of_lies.html


What on earth would be accomplished by putting this woman in jail? I think she's already wasted enough of the taxpayer's money.
BillRM
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 03:40 pm
@firefly,
Take note firefly there is also criminal libel as well as civil libel.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Criminal+libel

Any intentional false communication, either written or spoken, that harms a person's reputation; decreases the respect, regard, or confidence in which a person is held; or induces disparaging, hostile, or disagreeable opinions or feelings against a person.

Defamation may be a criminal or civil charge. It encompasses both written statements, known as libel, and spoken statements, called slander.

http://www.dba-oracle.com/oracle_news/news_states_criminal_libel_web_internet.htm

17 states have criminal libel laws for the web defamation
With lots of web creeps hiding behind an veil on anonymity, it's not uncommon to see people's reputations trashed on the web. Until recently there was not much that you could do to protect your good name on the web, but that's changing.

For details on now these new laws help victims to nab internet bad guys, see my book "Web Stalkers: Protect yourself from Internet Psychopaths".

In Colorado, state law makes criminal libel a felony carrying up to 18 months in prison and a fine up to $100,000 for the first offense. In general, web libel is posting false information about someone that defames them, commonly accusations of criminal acts, marital infidelity, dishonesty or that you have a nasty disease..

According to this article, if you live on one of the 17 states that enforce criminal libel (Colorado, Florida, Idaho, Kansas, Louisiana, Michigan, Minnesota, Montana, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Utah, Virginia, Washington and Wisconsin, along with Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands), you can file to lift the veil on anonymity for someone who defames you and have them arrested on criminal charges.

In Colorado, a man received a a paltry 23 years sentence for "spreading lies on the internet", but some states are getting tougher on libel crimes.

Internet libel is a felony!
Many people on the web think that privacy laws protect their anonymity, but that's not the case when criminal charges are filed. Google's motto is "Do no evil" and they are cooperating with law enforcement to help prosecute crooks by introducing their Google searches as evidence.

In sum, this article notes "Everything you Google can and will be used against you in a court of law". Google is also cooperating with law enforcement to help convict hackers, such as this case where a stinking hacker was sentenced to over a year in prison for interfering with a wireless network:

"Court documents say that Schuster ran a Google


0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 03:42 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:

The emotional and character/reputation damages to the woman rape victim should be handled in civil court, just as filing a false charge of rape is now handle


No, BillRM, your thinking is very muddled.

The filing of a false police report is handled in criminal court--it is a crime, a misdemeanor.

The emotional character/reputation damages to the rape victim are currently handled in civil court, if the woman wants to bring suit. The woman can bring such a civil suit even if the man was tried and acquitted of the crime of rape, or even if he was never tried. Roman Polanski made a civil settlement with his victim, and so did Kobe Bryant. And, in the rape news stories I've posted, it seems like more and more rape victims are suing in civil court for damages.

The actual crime of rape is, of course, handled in criminal court since it is a violation of criminal law.

hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 03:49 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
What on earth would be accomplished by putting this woman in jail? I think she's already wasted enough of the taxpayer's money.
I agree, there are already way to many citizens in our jails. Publicizing her name and the nature of of dishonesty and the cost that she caused the taxpayers on a central website should be sufficient to discourage the practice of lying about rape.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 03:55 pm
Quote:
What do you mean it’s not rape?
Soul or Pocketbook? You Decide.
BY JEANETTE FRIEDMAN
NEWJERSEYNEWSROOM.COM
February 2, 2011
COMMENTARY

Thirty-seven years ago, this very week, there was a snowstorm swirling outside my kitchen window, but my sixth floor apartment was so hot and dry I cracked the window facing the fire escape before I went to bed. It was about 3 a.m., and I had just fallen asleep when I woke up to find a man cutting the wires to the phone on my bedside table. Next thing I knew, I was blindfolded with my bathrobe, and could feel the point of a knife pushing into the top of my scalp. I kept thinking that what was happening couldn't be happening, and remembered what my cop friends had taught me. "Don't fight back, give them what they want or they won't think twice about hurting or killing you."

So I did as I was told, and about half-an-hour later, wrapped in a blanket, I went pounding on my neighbors' doors, begging them to call the cops. One of my big kitchen knives was laying on the third step of the staircase.

I was not bruised or battered physically, but I demanded to be taken to a hospital for a rape kit. (I was the editor of my college paper and had access to information most women didn't have. It was 1973 and women were starting to learn how to take care of themselves because, generally, men proved unequal to the task. Mostly I wanted a massive dose of penicillin, just in case I'd caught something disgusting.)

The first question these police officers asked me was what I had done to encourage my attacker. I thought that only happened in movies! I was so furious, I shot back that at 3 a.m., as the snowstorm raged across the city, I had climbed out on the fire escape, and while swinging my panties in the air, had yelled "Here ‘tis, come and get it."

They finally believed me when they heard the names of my cop friends and saw the evidence: the broken screen in the kitchen window, the knife on the stairs in the hall and the cut phone wires. A few weeks later the rapist got his just desserts. His face was plastered all over the NY Daily News, and more women came forward to identify him. He was a serial rapist who didn't have to beat his victims black and blue because he carried a weapon.

I wasn't battered because I had done what the cops taught me to do. And now, thirty-seven years later, Chris Smith, a Republican congressman in my home state of New Jersey, is pushing the "No Taxpayer Funding for Abortion Act" that invalidates the terrible experiences of millions of American women who were raped. His law basically says that only bruises prove rape and that it isn't incest if the victim is over 18. By his lights, because we weren't beaten to a pulp, we weren't raped. And that means victims of date rapes or designer drug rapes haven't been raped either. Never mind marital rape. It doesn't exist. He is saying it's no longer rape even if there is a knife to the victim's head — and it isn't incest because she's over 18, and she's not bleeding.

So far there are 173 Congressmen rallying behind this bill — one Smith claims will cut the deficit dramatically by eliminating abortions. What this law really does is pull the rug out from beneath women's bitterly won rights to do what they want with their own bodies. And that's precisely the point. They are creating a ruse to stop legal abortions.

I never went back to my apartment after that terrible night, except to move out. I stayed with a friend when I was released from the hospital and spent the rest of the night trying to scrub myself clean. For weeks afterward I held my breath until I got my period. Thank God, Roe V. Wade was passed just two weeks before I was raped. Had I gotten pregnant, I have no doubt I would have gotten an abortion — by hook or by crook. Such a pregnancy would have been life-threatening to me, since I wanted to marry and have children with someone I loved — and not have to commit suicide in despair. (A victim of rape is four times more likely to commit suicide.)

Maybe I believe that women have the right to choose because I am a Jew, and in Judaism, abortion is permitted even during full-term delivery if the life of the mother is at stake. The differences of opinion among the Jews lay not in the act of abortion, which is clearly permitted; they lay in the definition of the word "life." There are those rabbis who say that a woman's emotional and mental state matters — especially when it comes to raising children. For some women forced to give birth to a child of rape or a severely damaged child with no hope of recovery, the situation becomes life-threatening — not only to the mother, but to the mental and emotional health of her other children. On the other hand, there are rabbis who say a mother's life needs to be literally physically threatened by conditions of pregnancy and birth before an abortion can take place. In all cases, the final decision is between a woman, her rabbi and her doctor — and together they face God, come what may.

What is happening right now is that Smith and his cronies have wrapped their religious beliefs in the deficit and are attempting to coerce the rest of us to adhere to those beliefs by abusing the separation of Church and State. True, the separation of Church and State is not explicit in the Constitution. Neither is the right to privacy. Yet both of these principles are considered basic American human rights. They reinforce democratic ideals and allow American women to choose what they want to do, without having someone else's beliefs jammed down their throats.

Smith's bill is designed to demolish these long-established American freedoms as he and fellow Republican Mike Pence — whose companion bill aims to prohibit private insurance companies from covering legal abortions — attempt to bring the full force of Federal legislation to bear down on poor and middle class women. They are forcing American women to abide by the rules of Christian beliefs that differ even from those of other Christians. They use doublespeak to redefine rape and incest, words that have accepted meanings, legally and literally, that go back to biblical times. They manipulate the Constitution and lie about the costs of the havoc their bills will create.

If Smith's bill passes, you will have to suffer contusions, blunt force trauma or open wounds to prove rape, and if you are an incest victim over 18, it won't be incest. Any resulting pregnancies of these non-rapes will have to be carried to term because Chris Smith will make abortion impossible unless you are wealthy and pay for it "out of network." It's already awful to know that if you are a poor woman in America who relies on federal funds for health care, you can't get an abortion if your fetus was damaged by prescription drugs, a disease you contracted, or a genetic disorder. The government doesn't allow it.

If these Republicans have their way, women will be forced to go back to pre-1973 kitchen table abortions. These back-alley homemade procedures force women to risk their lives by using Betadyne and knitting needles or coat hangers to accomplish what the United States government will not allow them to do safely. The only women who will escape this desperate trap are the rich.

The rest of us will wonder what we can do for the women who develop complications from butchered abortions and how we will care for the damaged and unwanted children that will be the issue of this insane policy. Will the greater costs lie in our souls or our pocket books?

Call your congressman and tell him or her that you won't stand for this abuse of legislative power. This is still America — and we are still Americans — of different faiths and belief systems, and no one's religious agenda speaks for us all, not even to lower the deficit.

(America has more reported rapes, by a huge number, than any other country that gathers such statistics, and researchers note that as many as 60% of all rapes are never reported. Here are the facts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#United_States and here: http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims)

Jeanette Friedman is an award-winning journalist from New Jersey
http://www.newjerseynewsroom.com/commentary/what-do-you-mean-its-not-rape
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 2 Feb, 2011 04:16 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
The emotional character/reputation damages to the rape victim are currently handled in civil court, if the woman wants to bring suit. The woman can bring such a civil suit even if the man was tried and acquitted of the crime of rape, or even if he was never tried. Roman Polanski made a civil settlement with his victim, and so did Kobe Bryant. And, in the rape news stories I've posted, it seems like more and more rape victims are suing in civil court for damages.
Considering that the criminal system runs a victim restitution program allowing victims to go into the civil courts to get more is double dipping. One or the other needs to be ended.

Bill, I am thinking to that we really dont want to put anymore sexual disputes into the courts, so that when she says he raped her and we find out she was lying we dont want to put her into the courts anymore than we do most of the men who are already there. I understand that the men who are victims of false charges have been put through a lot of pain and suffering as well as are out a lot of cash for legal fees, but I think that we can out the victim restitution programs to work here. There is no excuse for using these programs only for pushing money at those who claim to be victims of sexual assault. The can very easily be made more fair and put to more full use by using them to compensate those who are victims of false charges as well.
 

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