25
   

Hey, Can A Woman "Ask To Get Raped"?

 
 
BillRM
 
  -3  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 11:20 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
You are such a moron you don't even know how to edit a post. Don't you even look at your own posts? They are so filled with irrelevant garbage


This complain is coming from an idiot who full her posts up with laughing cartoon animals and cute pictures!!!!!!!!!!!
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 11:38 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
No, force is not the only requirement to elevate rape to the 1st degree. It is force plus a weapon, or force plus kidnapping, etc
the code lists certain categories of force that qualify as 1st degree, but they are all force

Quote:
Force is also an element in 2nd degree rape.
you are playing you word games again I see....most people when they read "element in" would presume that you are saying that it is something that must be there, when it truth the situation is as I claimed it is,,,,that force is one of many special circumstances that get the crime of rape into the second degree. Power imbalances between the partners combined with lack of active positive consent by the victim also push the act into 2nd degree rape, and while I have heard feminists argue that power imbalance is threat of force I dont buy it and I dont think that most others do either. It is potential threat of force, just as me walking across the street is a potential risk of getting hit by a bus it has never yet been a instance of me getting hit by a bus.

Quote:
Well, I hope you now understand that the rape laws of your state have not been completely overhauled or altered. Force is still very much an element in the two most serious felony degrees of rape.


rape in the 1st change dates

Quote:
1998 c 242 § 1. Prior: 1983 c 118 § 1; 1983 c 73 § 1; 1982 c 192 § 11; 1982 c 10 § 3; prior: (1) 1981 c 137 § 36; 1979 ex.s. c 244 § 1; 1975 1st ex.s. c 247 § 1; 1975 1st ex.s. c 14 § 4. (2) 1981 c 136 § 57 repealed by 1982 c 10 § 18. Formerly RCW 9.79.170.]


Notes:
Severability -- 1983 c 73: "If any provision of this act or its application to any person or circumstance is held invalid, the remainder of the act or the application of the provision to other persons or circumstances is not affected." [1983 c 73 § 2.]

Severability -- 1982 c 10: See note following RCW 6.13.080.


Severability -- 1981 c 137: See RCW 9.94A.910.


Effective date -- 1981 c 136: See RCW 72.09.900



in the 2nd

Quote:
2007 c 20 § 1; 1997 c 392 § 514; 1993 c 477 § 2; 1990 c 3 § 901; 1988 c 146 § 1; 1983 c 118 § 2; 1979 ex.s. c 244 § 2; 1975 1st ex.s. c 14 § 5. Formerly RCW 9.79.180.]


Notes:
Effective date -- 2007 c 20: "This act is necessary for the immediate preservation of the public peace, health, or safety, or support of the state government and its existing public institutions, and takes effect immediately [April 10, 2007]." [2007 c 20 § 4.]

Short title -- Findings -- Construction -- Conflict with federal requirements -- Part headings and captions not law -- 1997 c 392: See notes following RCW 74.39A.009.


Index, part headings not law -- Severability -- Effective dates -- Application -- 1990 c 3: See RCW 18.155.900 through 18.155.902.


Severability -- 1988 c 146: "If any provision of this act or its application to any person or circumstance is held invalid, the remainder of the act or the application of the provision to other persons or circumstances is not affected." [1988 c 146 § 5.]


Effective dates -- 1988 c 146: "Section 4 of this act is necessary for the immediate preservation of the public peace, health, and safety, the support of the state government and its existing public institutions, and shall take effect immediately [March 21, 1988]. The remainder of this act shall take effect July 1, 1988." [1988 c 146 § 6.]



and the all importantant definitons

Quote:

[2007 c 20 § 3; 2005 c 262 § 1; 2001 c 251 § 28. Prior: 1997 c 392 § 513; 1997 c 112 § 37; 1994 c 271 § 302; 1993 c 477 § 1; 1988 c 146 § 3; 1988 c 145 § 1; 1981 c 123 § 1; 1975 1st ex.s. c 14 § 1. Formerly RCW 9.79.140.]


Notes:
Effective date -- 2007 c 20: See note following RCW 9A.44.050.

Severability -- 2001 c 251: See RCW 18.225.900.


Short title -- Findings -- Construction -- Conflict with federal requirements -- Part headings and captions not law -- 1997 c 392: See notes following RCW 74.39A.009.


Intent -- 1994 c 271: "The legislature hereby reaffirms its desire to protect the children of Washington from sexual abuse and further reaffirms its condemnation of child sexual abuse that takes the form of causing one child to engage in sexual contact with another child for the sexual gratification of the one causing such activities to take place." [1994 c 271 § 301.]


Purpose -- Severability -- 1994 c 271: See notes following RCW 9A.28.020.


Severability -- Effective dates -- 1988 c 146: See notes following RCW 9A.44.050.


Effective date -- 1988 c 145: "This act shall take effect July 1, 1988." [1988 c 145 § 26.]


Savings -- Application -- 1988 c 145: "This act shall not have the effect of terminating or in any way modifying any liability, civil or criminal, which is already in existence on July 1, 1988, and shall apply only to offenses committed on or after July 1, 1988." [1988 c 145 § 25.]



and that does not even get into the changes in the rape shield laws, in not being able to test the truthfulness of alleged victims with polygraph, the laws requiring the court to take into consideration the desires of the victims at sentencing, and for damn sure does not take into consideration the advocates that victims now have in the legal proces. You can claim that the law has not changed all you want, nobody who has the slightest awareness with the system in real life is going to believe you, because we know that you are lying.
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 29 Jan, 2011 12:31 am
@hawkeye10,
Vivian O. Berger

Nash Professor of Law Emerita

Columbia Law School


Quote:
The narrow definition of rape in most jurisdictions
requires proof either of force (in effect, victim resistance) or
threat of force (which excuses resistance); except in
unusual circumstances,40 mere absence of consent to engage
in intercourse does not suffice to establish the crime.
Though virtually unanimous in wishing to abolish or
modify the Force-Resistance Requirement, modern rape
scholars, as Bryden points out, have reached “no consensus
about the rest of the reform agenda.”41
Two of the major current proposals for reconstructing
substantive rape law not only would dispense with force as
an overlay on nonconsent but also would define the latter
with some precision, rather than leaving decision makers
free to inject their personal biases into the concept. Under
the first proposal, commonly labeled “no means no,”
nonconsent would be made out if the woman conveyed her
unwillingness to have sex by either physical or verbal
resistance. Prominently identified with Professor Susan
Estrich,42 this rule also appeals to Professor Bryden. Under
the second, more radical alternative—advanced, among
others,43 by Professor Stephen Schulhofer in his recent
“landmark”44 book, Unwanted Sex,45 and rejected by
Professor Bryden—the burden would fall on the man to
obtain an affirmative expression of consent before
proceeding to engage in sex.46

As for me, while reasonable feminists can disagree, I
now come down on the Schulhofer side.

http://wings.buffalo.edu/law/bclc/bclrarticles/3(2)/bergerfinal.pdf

the feminists of course have generally agreed on active positive consent and are busy rewriting law to conform to their desires. We should object.

Note to Bill....I bet you enjoy hearing a feminist admit that what they want to do is to have the "burden fall to the man"...a bit of honesty from feminists that we are not familiar with given Firefly's unwillingness to practice it.


Quote:
I feel I relied on the wrong case as a
springboard for what I still consider a point worth making:
Women should not be overprotected. I feared then, and still
do, that a global portrayal, reflected in rape law, of females
as weak, subordinate creatures, incapable of withstanding
pressure of any sort, invites nullification and backlash59
and, on a philosophical level, cheapens rather than
celebrates “the rights to self-determination, sexual
autonomy, and self- and societal respect of women.”60 Thus,
for example, I reject, as wrongheaded, the proposal by
Professors Balos and Fellows61 that a history of physical
abuse of the woman (as in Alston) should vitiate even
positive consent to sexual relations, thereby imposing “a
mandatory divorce”62 on the parties. A legal rule of “yes
means no” would effectively turn adult sex into statutory
rape—women into children—and only limit the life options
of victims who have far too few choices already.


YOU BETCHA! But here the feminists are ten years latter doing exactly that by invalidating the consent of women who drink...which they are itching to write into law. They need to be told HELL NO!
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jan, 2011 12:59 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:

and that does not even get into the changes in the rape shield laws, in not being able to test the truthfulness of alleged victims with polygraph, the laws requiring the court to take into consideration the desires of the victims at sentencing, and for damn sure does not take into consideration the advocates that victims now have in the legal proces. You can claim that the law has not changed all you want, nobody who has the slightest awareness with the system in real life is going to believe you, because we know that you are lying.

Those alleged minor "changes" you cited are hardly the major "overhauls" to the entire body of rape laws that you foolishly claimed have occurred in the past 30 years. You made this absolutely absurd statement.
Quote:
felony sex laws were all massively revamped under pressure from the feminists during the early eighties, not only was the level of consent changed from demonstrated negative consent to active and knowing positive consent but the force requirement was removed, along with a host of other changes that happened at that time and later. Current sex law looks almost nothing like sex law pre 1980, both in statute and in practice

No, the felony sex laws in the state of Washington have not been "massively revamped"--as is evident from the sexual assault statutes you yourself posted. 1st and 2nd degree rape are alive and well, and probably have changed little, if at all, in the past 30 years. Because rape in the 1st and 2nd degree are intact and viable, there is absolutely no basis for your claim that "Current sex law looks almost nothing like sex law pre 1980, both in statute and in practice". Rape in the 1st and 2nd degree was very much a part of sexual assault law pre-1980, just as they are part of sexual assault law today.

And, non consent has not been removed--it is a factor in rape in the 3rd degree--so you got that one wrong too.
Quote:
Where the victim did not consent as defined in RCW 9A.44.010(7), to sexual intercourse with the perpetrator and such lack of consent was clearly expressed by the victim's words or conduct

As I pointed out to you before, there is no such thing as "negative consent"--it is lack of consent--as in she said, "No"--or tried to push him away. There was no change in the "level of consent" in the statute--you just don't understand what the statute says. If you read the above quote from the statute, for rape in the 3rd degree, what it says is that the victim did not express "freely willing knowing agreement"(consent) with the act, and her lack of consent was expressed by words or conduct (i.e. saying, "No", screaming for help, attempts to push the perpetrator off, saying, "Don't do this", etc.). So, it means she definitely didn't say, "Yes, I want you to do that", and also indicated, in some way, she definitely didn't want it done.

But this one addition to rape in the 3rd degree is what you have been carrying on about for the past 375 pages--this one addition is the big deal "change" in the rape laws of your state you have been ranting about for 375 pages.
Quote:
Where the victim did not consent as defined in RCW 9A.44.010(7), to sexual intercourse with the perpetrator and such lack of consent was clearly expressed by the victim's words or conduct


So, you just don't want a woman to be able to simply non consent to sexual intercourse. You don't want sexual intercourse considered as rape even if she
says, "NO!", or screams for help, or tries to push the perpetrator off, or punches him, or begins crying hysterically, or yells, "Don't do that! Stop! I don't want that!". Is that correct, Hawkeye? Because those are the circumstances that fit rape in the 3rd degree. That's the "date rape" statute. And you want to take away the woman's right to non consent to sexual intercourse. Right? You don't think that's "real rape", do you?

THAT'S REAL RAPE, HAWKEYE!

You just don't want to yield equal power to your "partner"--equal power to consent or not consent to what you want to do to, and with, her. You want to be in control. And once she has the power to say, "No" and have it backed up by the force of law, you don't like that one bit. And that's what you have been ranting about for 375 pages. You don't like that one part of the rape in the 3rd degree statute--the part that says, in effect, "No means no" and makes you vulnerable to a rape charge if you ignore her wishes.

You'll let rape in the 1st and 2nd degree remain, but you want that section of rape in the 3rd degree to go, right, Hawkeye? That's what you've been saying for 375 pages.

TOUGH, HAWKEYE--WOMEN HAVE THE RIGHT TO CONTROL WHEN THEY WANT TO ENGAGE IN SEXUAL INTERCOURSE, AND WITH WHOM. IT IS HER BODY--AND SHE HAS EVERY RIGHT TO CONTROL ACCESS TO IT. YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO DISREGARD HER WISHES.YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO RAPE HER.
Quote:
and that does not even get into the changes in the rape shield laws, in not being able to test the truthfulness of alleged victims with polygraph, the laws requiring the court to take into consideration the desires of the victims at sentencing

Those things are unrelated to the sexual assault laws. The rape shield laws, and things like polygraphs, are part of the rules of evidence for criminal trials--they are not part of the rape laws, and they are not relevant to the topic of this thread.

I'll agree to letting victim/witnesses take polygraphs, only if the defendant takes one too. Laughing

BTW, the state does not "invalidate the consent of drunken women". Women who feel they were raped while intoxicated can, and do, lodge rape charges. They contend that consent was never given--it's not being invalidated by the state--those women allege consent was never given. And, if the woman was physically incapacited by alcohol, that would fit 2nd degree rape in your state, and not just 3rd degree rape.

hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 29 Jan, 2011 01:16 am
@firefly,
Quote:
No, the felony sex laws in the state of Washington have not been "massively revamped"--as is evident from the sexual assault statutes you yourself posted. 1st and 2nd degree rape are alive and well, and probably have changed little, if at all, in the past 30 years. Because rape in the 1st and 2nd degree are intact and viable, there is absolutely no basis for your claim that "Current sex law looks almost nothing like sex law pre 1980, both in statute and in practice". Rape in the 1st and 2nd degree was very much a part of sexual assault law pre-1980, just as they are part of sexual assault law today
IS your brain on drugs?? all of 1st and some of second is about force that has not been consented to, Washington State as did all or almost all other states completely changes the definition of consent and you want to insist over and over again that the law has not changed?? The law pulls from defendants the right to point out that the alleged victim has a know history of being a slut or a liar and you want to claim that the law has not changed? The law changes the burden of proof from the victim convincing a jury that she indicated no to making the defendant prove that he had good reason to believe that he had consent, and you are willing to hang him in some cases even when he believed that he had good reason to think that she consented if you dont think after the fact that the consent met the legal standard....and you want to claim that the law has not changed?

Seriously??
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 29 Jan, 2011 01:29 am
@firefly,
Quote:
BTW, the state does not "invalidate the consent of drunken women". Women who feel they were raped while intoxicated can, and do, lodge rape charges. They contend that consent was never given--it's not being invalidated by the state--those women allege consent was never given
Most of the time they can not remember, but they claim that they would not have agreed had they been sober. But dont go changing your story now, you are already on record that if the woman has been drinking past a certain point that you will not define she can give all the ooh's and aah's and "ya babies" that any consenting woman would give, but if the next day if she thinks that she was taken advantage of you want to law to support making the guy fry. As you say, having sex with a drunk woman is at the risk of the man...no matter how much the woman indicates that she wants it.

The consent that you claim was never given is LEGAL CONSENT, but in many of these cases consent was in fact given. For the moment the woman still needs to complain to the law or at the rape store in order to hang the man, but the feminists are working on getting anyone she tells of the sex to do if for her, even if she does not want her situation to become a rape case.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jan, 2011 03:08 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
IS your brain on drugs?? all of 1st and some of second is about force that has not been consented to, Washington State as did all or almost all other states completely changes the definition of consent and you want to insist over and over again that the law has not changed?? The law pulls from defendants the right to point out that the alleged victim has a know history of being a slut or a liar and you want to claim that the law has not changed? The law changes the burden of proof from the victim convincing a jury that she indicated no to making the defendant prove that he had good reason to believe that he had consent, and you are willing to hang him in some cases even when he believed that he had good reason to think that she consented if you dont think after the fact that the consent met the legal standard....and you want to claim that the law has not changed?


You know, Hawkeye, your thinking is so muddled, I really can't continue to discuss this material with you.

For one thing, you are confusing sexual assault/rape criminal statutes with the rules of evidence in criminal trials. Those two things are completely unrelated. The rape shield laws have absolutely nothing to do with the criminal statutes pertaining to rape--they are part of the rules of evidence in a criminal trial. And the burden of proof in criminal trials has not changed. The burden has always been on the state--not the victim--to prove the charges beyond a reasonable doubt. And, yes, when the defense claims that the sex was consensual, they have to prove that to a jury too, if they want to create reasonable doubt in the minds of jurors. And they do that by the way they cross examine the victim on her version of events, by the testimony of other witnesses, or by having the defendant take the stand in his own defense.

And whether the victim is "a slut" has absolutely nothing to do with whether the defendant raped her. Are you saying "a slut" deserves to be raped, or can never be raped, or should never be believed? Do you think women should refrain from having sex, so people like you won't consider them "sluts"? Do you realize what a sexual prude you are, and how much of a double standard you have? Is a man who has had many sex partners also "a slut"? Do you think the defendant's entire past sexual history should be put into evidence too?

But, all of that is beside the point because the rape shield laws have nothing to do with the criminal rape statutes. The criminal rape statutes have not gone through the "major overhaul" you claim has transpired. Changes in trial procedures, rules of evidence, etc. are totally unrelated to the criminal laws pertaining to rape.

Also consent is not mentioned in the statute for 1st degree rape in your state. It is a non issue because the act was done "with forcible compulsion". Didn't you notice that? Most of the statute for rape in the second degree has little to do with consent, and if the rape in the 2nd degree was due to "forcible compulsion" consent is, again, assumed to not be present. So, the definition of consent pertains mainly to rape in the 3rd degree. You keep saying the definition of "consent" was changed. When was it changed in the state of Washington? How was it defined in the state of Washington before this alleged change? You don't seem to understand that the statute for 3rd degree rape says that consent wasn't given and non consent was indicated. It hinges on the absence of consent, and how that non consent was indicated by the victim.

But, again, you are confusing the actual rape law--for rape in the 3rd degree--with what goes on at trial. But they are not related. Obviously, the defense to being charged with a non consensual act is to claim it was consensual. That's exactly the same as a not guilty plea in any other kind of criminal trial. If you say I gave you my car, and I claim you stole the car, it similarly boils down to whether you obtained my car with my consent or you took it without my consent. And, if a D.A. charges you with theft of my car, that D.A. has to convince a jury that I didn't "freely, willingly, knowingly, agree" to just let you take it. And that involves evidence and testimony, and it may well boil down to who is more credible, me or you, or which version of events is more credible to a jury. That's exactly what happens in a rape trial as well. And the burden of proof is on the state. That's why rape is a hard crime to prosecute successfully--particularly rape in the 3rd degree. The law works in favor of the rapist because the burden of proof is on the state, and rape is generally not done in the presence of witnesses, and the victim may not have sustained severe physical injuries, and her non consent is often hard to prove.

But you still haven't provided evidence of this "major overhaul" to the actual criminal rape statutes that you claim has taken place in the past 30 years. You're dragging in all sorts of things that are not part of the criminal rape statutes. The statutes really haven't changed much. A "date rape" circumstance was added to rape in the 3rd degree. That's hardly a "major overhaul" to the rape laws. If your thinking wasn't so hopelessly muddled you might be able to understand that. That egg on your face is still dripping all over the place.

hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 29 Jan, 2011 03:23 am
@firefly,
Quote:
But, again, you are confusing the actual rape law--for rape in the 3rd degree--with what goes on at trial. But they are not related
Your insistence that the law is wholly and fully your interpretation of what is written down in words is a dictators approach to law. As you know I consider the law to be much more than that. You might benefit from reading Wiki's review of what the law is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law

Pay particular attention to the mention that courts, legislatures and the police are all part of the law

BTW- this is by no means the first time that I have found myself hoping to the Gods that you are not in the legal profession, as your professed ignorance of the law combined with your demonstrated lack of interest in justice make you extremely ill suited for it.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 29 Jan, 2011 04:35 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Law, it is generally thought, is a system of governance in which a recognized authority with the power of coercive enforcement establishes rules for behavior that are characteristically general, stable, public, prospective, clear, not contradictory and capable of being followed and in which enforcement actions are based only on faithful application of the rules, not distorted by personal or otherwise extraneous considerations. (This list is from Fuller (1964).)


What is Law? A Coordination Model of the
Characteristics of Legal Order

Gillian K. Hadeld and Barry R. Weingast
University of Southern California and Stanford University
October 2010

http://works.bepress.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1035&context=ghadfield

Are we clear Firefly??

Note that sex law fails the stable and clear requirements. Also, given that sex law is written by the feminists it fails the not "distorted by personal or otherwise extraneous considerations" requirement as it is written by radicals who have said very clearly that their aim is to remake the relationship between the sexes and is most definitely not justice and fairness. I also allege that it fails the "capable of being followed " requirement as sex law aims to criminalize power with-in relationships and power usage with-in relationship is the natural state of humans. Given the DA's routine use of charge shopping, loading up on charges, and using threats and intimidation to force their individual wills and biases upon the system America law fails the "faithful application of the rules" requirement, but dont get me started on all of the ways that the American legal system is fucked up...
BillRM
 
  -3  
Reply Sat 29 Jan, 2011 05:46 am
@hawkeye10,
You are doing a fine job of nailing Firefly using the words of Feminists themselves Hawkeye. You must have a strong stomach to be able to read such nonsense and not throw up over your keyboard.

Oh, as far as mandatory divorces we are already going in that direction for the last few decades with mandatory courts orders being issue in cases of claims domestic violence.

Such orders are issues even when neither party wishes them to be forbidding all communications between a man and his wife.

Both then need to drag lawyers to court to ask the judge to please allow them to at least communicate.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 29 Jan, 2011 06:21 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
You must have a strong stomach to be able to read such nonsense and not throw up over your keyboard.

It certainly brings back memories of when I was a self described feminist living at the co-op of Michigan State where out of about 40 members 5 where feminists ranging from committed to the cause to militant. We used to talk about how much men suck. 4 of the feminsits were dykes and 2 were admitted man haters. Thing is back in 1985 even the dyke man hating feminists that I knew where not talking about using sex law as a club to bash men, the radicals glommed on to sex law as a way to push their agenda much later. The radicals back then could not even imagine joining forces with the state as they eventually did. Back then the goal was still equality, and the battle field was mostly economic and in gaining equal rights for women. When I see what has become of feminism, this willingness to sell all of our liberty to gain power for the cause, it makes me sad. It is textbook corruption.
BillRM
 
  -3  
Reply Sat 29 Jan, 2011 11:32 am
@hawkeye10,
Hawkeye had you look into the mandatory no contact orders when one of a couple had been arrested on charges of domestic violence?

I been doing some research on this matter and had been shock at how bad it now is.

Even with both parties dragging lawyers to court and petitioning for it to be drop it is unlikely to be ended.

With no one had having yet been convicted of any crime and again the wishes of both parties a married couple can be force not to even communicate let along live together as the case wind it way slowly through the court system taking likely more then a year.

In fact that is one of the tools being used to force guilty pleas out of the one charge so the case is over and the order can be removed.

Oh, in some states the police will do bed checks in the middle of the night to make sure that those orders are not being disobeyed by the couple.

Amazing that the feminists can get such laws pass and the only ones who know about it are the ones who had a fight where the police are call to maintain order.

You then run into mandatory arrest and no contact mandatory orders and……..

Women are children and we are going to take power out of their hands in the name of protecting them from evil men.

Even the power to live with their husbands if they wish to do so.
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 29 Jan, 2011 02:49 pm
@BillRM,
Bill, the state restricting freedom of movement and freedom of association is a much bigger problem than just sex law and domestic violence law. Here in Washington State we have a "anti-gang" bill in front of the legislature that would allow DA's to go to civil court and get orders to restrict claimed gang members from entering whole sections of the city. And you know that the DA's will eventually try to expand this into running claimed gang members out of the city entirely Rambo style but this time with the approval of the citizenry (us) . In sex cases the norm is to issue restraining orders asked for by alleged victims automatically, which is bad enough because these orders typically not only restrict contact but also restrict movement of the one who it was issued for. In theory the subject can pay for a lawyer and can argue his case, but normal practice is to disregard his plea.

.

Quote:
It ups the sentences for gang-related felonies (doubling them when a gang-related crime occurs near a school), requires more supervision of people convicted of gang-related felonies once they're released, and makes graffiti a Class C felony rather than a misdemeanor. Most controversially, it lacks any money for community intervention efforts that might keep people from joining gangs in the first place, but it does allow prosecutors the ability to obtain what are essentially restraining orders against people prosecutors think are gang members.

These restraining orders, which could be used to prevent members of criminal street gangs from returning to certain areas or neighborhoods, are modeled on similar rules in other states, including California (where they have also drawn concern from civil libertarians). The problem, says Narayan of the ACLU, is that the orders would be obtained through a civil court proceeding, meaning that people accused of being gang members—many of them likely unable to afford a lawyer—wouldn't be provided with public defenders to help them rebut the charges.

"This approach will sweep up innocent people and order them into court where they will have no right to an attorney and no realistic opportunity to show they are not gang members," says an ACLU e-mail blast to supporters, asking them to send letters to state legislators protesting the bill.

In other words: A person who is not a gang member could easily become a convicted criminal, simply for returning to his or her neighborhood.

The attorney general's office disputes this in its own e-mail blasts to reporters. And ever since an emotional January 19 hearing on McKenna's bill in front of Representative Hurst's House Committee on Public Safety & Emergency Preparedness, the dueling fact sheets have been flying.

A January 21 fact sheet from the attorney general's office argued that because domestic violence restraining orders are run through civil courts, it is therefore "inconsistent" for the ACLU to think gang restraining orders can't be run this way, too. "Meanwhile, the violence continues," the attorney general's fact sheet declared, detailing how a young girl was recently shot in Sunnyside during a suspected spree of gang violence.

Later that day, the ACLU shot back with its own fact sheet saying: "Gang violence is a scourge in our communities, but the AG's bill would not help reduce it." The ACLU said it was "illogical" to compare domestic violence restraining orders (which require proof of a threat of imminent harm) to gang restraining orders (which don't), and it called McKenna's bill a storehouse for tactics that "have failed to stem the tide of gang involvement or violent crime
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/gangbanger/Content?oid=6475674

My position on sex law is not about just sex law, I am watching American liberty dissolve into a police state and I refuse to walk to my appointed cell quietly.
BillRM
 
  -3  
Reply Sat 29 Jan, 2011 03:39 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
In sex cases the norm is to issue restraining orders asked for by alleged victims automatically, which is bad enough


Hawkeye having a restraining order issue without solid proof of need at the request of one party again another is bad enough but to issue and enforce such orders again the clear wishes of both parties is an outrage.

This is specially true of married couples in affect at least for a time ending the marriages against the wishes of all parties.

All this had been pass with most of the public being completely unaware of it happening.

The state using the police to do beds checks to see if married couples are living together how insane is that.
BillRM
 
  -3  
Reply Sat 29 Jan, 2011 03:45 pm
@hawkeye10,
I think in a way we all should be grateful to Firefly for starting this thread as I was not aware our laws had gotten this out of line before she started to trying to sell the Feminist line.

Thanks Firelfy.....................................................................
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 29 Jan, 2011 03:51 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Hawkeye having a restraining order issue without solid proof of need at the request of one party again another is bad enough but to issue and enforce such orders again the clear wishes of both parties is an outrage
I am just as pissed off about women being able to walk into a rape store and get a restraining order that forbids a dad from seeing his kids for weeks or months until the process can clear him of the allegation. All that is required to get one is for the woman to claim that she had fear..what the guy actually did has nothing to do with it. Getting a restraining order is about on par with getting a boob job, where most everyone knows the magic words (and if you don't the helpful folks at the rape store will surely clue you in)..in the case of a boob job it is "this will make me feel better about myself" and to keep dad away from the kids it is "I was in fear that he was going to hurt me"

Quote:
Restraining Order Requirements

You can get a restraining order under the Family Abuse Prevention Act if your situation fits the following criteria:

•Age. You are at least 18 years old, or you are younger than 18 and the person who abused you is at least 18 and 1) you are (or were) married to that person, or 2) you have been in a sexual relationship with that person.
•Relationship. The person who abused you is: 1) your husband, wife, or domestic partner; or 2) your former husband, wife, or domestic partner; or 3) an adult with whom you are living (or did live) in a sexual relationship; or 4) an adult with whom you have been in a sexual relationship in the last two years; or 5) an adult related to you by blood, marriage, or adoption; or 6) the parent of your child.
•What is meant by “abuse”? If in the last 180 days, the person you wish to restrain has: physically injured you; or tried to physically injure you; or made you afraid that he or she was about to physically injure you or made you have sexual relations against your wishes by using force or threats of force. (Note that any time period in which the person who abused you was in jail or lived more than 100 miles from your home does not count as part of the 180-day period. This means you may still be able to get a restraining order even if it has been more than 180 days since you were abused.)
•Ongoing Danger: You are in danger of more abuse very soon, and the person who abused you is a threat to the physical safety of you or your children.
NOTE: A judge cannot give you a restraining order solely for threats to take your children, rude behavior, verbal or emotional abuse, or damaged property unless you were in fear that you were about to be physically injured.

http://www.osbar.org/public/legalinfo/1140_RestrainingOrders.htm

Please note that the Family Abuse Prevention Act was a project of the feminists, and I think it is fairly clear what they were after, and that they got it....
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  -3  
Reply Sat 29 Jan, 2011 04:04 pm
In this case below for some reason they ask her if she wish for an NCO but in a large number of states if they arrest the man there is an NCO issue period.

Take note that as he is pleaing not guilty that made it harder to have the order removed.

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http://www.expertlaw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114367&page=1

My question involves criminal law for the state of: Washington state

My husband and I had a rough start to our marriage but we have been committed to it and have attended counseling. Late September 2010, we had a loud argument and the police were called. I was very upset, my chest was blotchy red due to anxiety and crying, because I felt that my husband was being verbally abusive and I did not know what to do other than call the police; I couldn't calm him down.

Before the police drove my husband away, they asked if I wanted an NCO put into place. I had no idea what that meant, I pictured him calling me from the police station telling me how upset he was so I went ahead and agreed to an NCO. I never knew how much this would mess up my life.

Since then I have been trying to remove the NCO. But, my husband plead not guilty and therefore it was sent to trial. Since I am the witness they do not want us to contact each other.

Last Saturday my husband and I broke the NCO by being in the car together. A cop stopped us because my bike rack was obstructing my tags and then arrested my husband. An hour later the cop called me and said he would post a $500 bail and he would not notify the judge. Four hours later I was able to come up with the money, drove to the police station and paid. They told me to hurry along because my husband would be released soon. This was not true. They did not let him go. When the cop called about the bail, my husband asked if he could call me to help me figure out the money situation. After he hung up, they slapped two more violations on his record increasing his bail to $1500. I am very frustrated that they allowed him to call, he was flustered and wasn't thinking straight, just to turn around and add another violation. AND they didn't tell me when I drove to bail him out!

I went to the clerks office the following Monday to petition the court to modify or remove the NCO. I was not allowed to do this. They told me that I am not allowed to petition the court anymore!

Today a Domestic Violence advocate called to offer counseling which I agreed to. I told her a little about my story, that my husband has verbal issues but that he does not hurt me physically and I do not wish to have this NCO in place. She said that I will never be able to drop the NCO and the judge will not drop it. I told her that this means that the court is basically telling us to divorce. She said no. But how can a couple be married if they are not allowed to see eachother?!

I have two daughters. I want my husband back. This is crazy that they are not allowing us to be together. He did not hurt me. What should I do?????
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 29 Jan, 2011 04:17 pm
http://washingtonstatecriminaldefense.com/domestic-violence-and-no-contact-orders/


Nina Shapiro, a reporter at Seattle Weekly has written a very insightful article regarding domestic violence at Seattle Municipal Courts. Ms. Shapiro has consistently examined numerous areas of the Washington State Judicial system with a careful eye. Having dealt with Domestic Violence cases in our practice, this was a look at some of the issues that are rarely raised in a public forum, given the emotionally charged nature of these cases.

How the Cops and Courts Turn Abused Spouses Into Voiceless Victims
The “enlightened” approach to domestic abuse has left women passive and powerless.

Andrea Rich-Bell waits anxiously in a hallway of Seattle Municipal Court, her heavily pregnant frame wrapped in a bulky black jacket. She’s due to give birth in three weeks, but the baby feels like it might drop any minute. It isn’t lightening her load that her husband, a construction worker named Roy, is in the “tank,” the courthouse’s basement holding cell. Nor that prosecutors are proceeding with a domestic violence case against Roy over her ardent objections.

“It’s more pressure on me,” says the 29-year-old Rich-Bell, who’s had six children with her husband over a 14-year relationship, not counting the one on the way. “I have to deal with all these kids. They don’t look at stuff like that.” Bail was set at $75,000, “like he’s a murderer,” says Rich-Bell.

According to the police report, two 911 calls were made on Sept. 22 at around 11 p.m., one from a witness reporting a fight downtown, the other from Rich-Bell herself claiming that Roy was “freaking out” because he had lost some drugs on a bus. When police arrived, she told them he had been swinging a cell phone charger around in a circle over his head, the report says, and she was fearful he would hit her.

As often happens in domestic violence cases, Rich-Bell is telling a different story now, saying she never called 911 (although Roy’s defense attorney concedes a tape of the call exists) or said anything about drugs. Rich-Bell admits her husband did have a phone charger in his hand and was swinging it, but “not at me.” She says she told the arriving officers that he didn’t do anything to her. “They said, ‘OK, we’ll take him to jail for being intoxicated.’” The next thing she knew, he was being charged with assault in the fourth degree and harassment.

The court also imposed a “no-contact order” that prohibits her from seeing her husband while the case is pending—a period during which she is likely to give birth to their child.

At 9 a.m., Roy’s public defender arrives. Rich-Bell smiles gamely at her, greeting her as an ally. The attorney then goes into a small conference room where prosecutors and defenders discuss possible deals. A short while later, the attorney returns to debrief Rich-Bell on the options. Prosecutors are willing to ask the judge to lift the no-contact—but only, ironically enough, if Roy pleads guilty to assaulting her. If he insists on a trial, the order stays.“So they’re not going to give him a temporary release for the birth of my child?” Rich-Bell asks.

“Well, we can ask the judge,” the defender replies, adding they would have to set a hearing date on the matter.

Rich-Bell goes down to the tank to meet with Roy and returns with a decision: They will go to trial. The no-contact order will remain in effect for now.

Across town at her South Seattle home, a woman with very different life experiences has been grappling with the consequences of a no-contact order she didn’t want either. Ever since the arrest of her husband, City Council member Richard McIver, on charges related to domestic violence, Marlaina Kiner-McIver, a lawyer who once worked for the federal Department of Housing and Urban Development, has indicated that she is displeased at the way events have played out.

“I’m just very frustrated that I can’t talk with my husband,” she says, reached at home by phone. “Let’s just say that if I had to do it over again, I would not have called 911.” Actually, she hung up rather than going through with the call. But when police came anyway, they say, she told them that her husband repeatedly grabbed her by the throat while going on a “profane tirade.” Although Kiner-McIver has said that such an incident never occurred before in their 34-year marriage, it is now largely up to prosecutors and the court to decide what the immediate future will hold.

That’s because it has become routine for no-contact orders to go into effect not only while a case is pending but for a period of two to five years should there be a conviction. In essence, the criminal justice system is forcing couples to separate—whether they want to or not.

That’s a problem, according to several defense attorneys who work frequently on domestic violence cases. “I’m not sure about all this state-mandated intervention in people’s lives,” says Roy’s attorney, Theresa Allman, who works for the Defender Association. “On the majority of my domestic violence cases, probably 90 percent of the time, the victim does not want a no-contact order.” Yet, she says, the victim “is not listened to. She’s not respected. Her opinions are not valued.”

“People have a right to make bad choices,” agrees Pat Valerio, another public defender who works for the Associated Counsel for the Accused. A no-contact order, she says, is supposed to be for the benefit of someone who wants to be protected. It’s not “to have all the power of government coming in and saying, ‘We know better than you; you need to get over this guy.’” The state’s policy, she says, is just another way of overpowering a person who’s supposedly already been overpowered by her partner.

Local practices around domestic violence are the result of a decades-long push by women’s groups and others to get such cases taken more seriously. In 1984, Washington state enacted a law requiring police to make an arrest when they arrive at a scene where they believe domestic violence has occurred. Merril Cousin, executive director of the King County Coalition Against Domestic Violence, says the law followed a number of studies suggesting that arrests reduce recidivism more than, say, “having the guy walk around the block, which is what they used to do.”

Then, she says, later studies argued that “arrests alone are not effective unless there’s accountability” through such things as prosecution, jail time, and no-contact orders. “The problem is that batterers will often continue to harass, intimidate, and control their partners” into not cooperating with the prosecution. So proceeding without such cooperation “sort of became state of the art,” she says, a trend that really picked up in the ’90s.

Cousin confesses to mixed feelings about the result. “We don’t want to say it’s up to the victims for a number of reasons.” For one, she says, domestic violence is a crime and it’s the community’s responsibility, not the victims’, to hold criminals accountable. “On the other hand,” she says, “there are often very good reasons why victims don’t want cases to go forward.” The financial consequences could be steep, for instance, or prosecution could trigger federal laws that would mandate victims’ partners be deported, not something they necessarily want.

“Sometimes victims’ wishes are not considered as strongly as I would like,” she allows. Consequently, she says, “often victims are angry.”

Sharon Hayden, director of the domestic violence unit in the City Attorney’s Office, says part of the reason why she can’t abide by a victim’s stated wishes is that the woman may not express “the deepest desire of her heart.”

“I tell victims when I’m talking to them on the phone, ‘I don’t know if he’s standing there with a gun to you head.’ They laugh and say, ‘Well, he’s not.’ He probably is not.” However, she says, “I’ve prosecuted numerous cases where victims came to court against their will and later thanked me. It’s a dilemma. Do we say, ‘We’re going to take this out of your hands so you’re not in further danger?’ Or do we say, ‘You’re an adult, you’re a self-determining individual, and we will honor that?’”Making a decision on whether to proceed with a case is “an art, not a science,” she says, one that relies on the experience of police and prosecutors to make case-by-case decisions based on all the evidence at hand, including not only victims’ statements past and present but those of witnesses, photos of the alleged crime, and 911 tapes (all of which can convict a defendant with or without a victim’s cooperation). She says prosecutors also listen to “victim advocates” employed by the City Attorney, who meet with victims separately and push for their point of view within the office— “much more so here than any other place I’ve worked.”

Andrea Rich-Bell says, however, that when she talked to one such victim advocate, “she’s wasn’t helpful. She was, like, ‘This is what the prosecutor recommends.’ She was more on the prosecutor’s side.”Says Allman: “I don’t know how many victims have said, ‘They’re not listening to me. I want him home.’”

In practice, Allman and other defense attorneys contend, prosecutors are not looking at cases individually. “My concern is there’s sort of a cookie-cutter approach,” says Karen Baker of the Associated Counsel for the Accused. With the specter of famous cases like the Tacoma murder of Crystal Brame by her police chief husband, prosecutors almost always seek and receive no-contact orders due to an assumption that women need to be separated from men who may actually kill them. But, Baker says, “that fear is not valid in the vast majority of cases, and the harm done by prosecutors acting on that fear is a huge problem.”

Baker points, in particular, to the effect of no-contact orders on children. The orders prohibit any communication, “directly or indirectly.” In practice, this often means that a domestic violence defendant can’t even have, say, his mother call to arrange a time for him to see his kids. Hayden, of the City Attorney’s Office, counters that the order would not bar that from happening.

But that’s not what the attorneys who work under Hayden argue in court, according to Baker. What’s more, she says, prosecutors usually fight her requests to include an exception to the order that would allow parental visitation. “Usually I lose,” Baker says. “There are a lot of kids going fatherless while their dads’ cases are pending.”In theory, women could ignore no-contact orders they didn’t want, and sometimes they do. But their partners will face the consequences if, for example, the two of them are pulled over in a traffic stop. “We try to tell our clients it doesn’t matter who initiates contact,” says Valerio. “If they do anything but hang up the phone or walk away, he’s in violation.” She tells of one case in which her client called 911 because his alleged victim was on his front porch in the middle of the night, screaming. When police arrived, they jailed him for violation of the no-contact order.

“The reality is, many of the people involved in these situations are going to be together, and have families together,” Hayden acknowledges. “People don’t want to split up.” Allman believes that victims are looking for things they’re not getting from the prosecutor’s office: “more reasonable jail time,” perhaps family counseling, and “help at home with child care, the stressors that are causing offender behavior in the first place.”

Andrea Rich-Bell had her baby last week. With a trial set to start this month, Roy was still in jail and prohibited from communicating with his wife. Allman says she doesn’t know whether he heard the news or not.

By Nina Shapiro
October 31, 2007

hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 29 Jan, 2011 04:40 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
“I’m just very frustrated that I can’t talk with my husband,” she says, reached at home by phone. “Let’s just say that if I had to do it over again, I would not have called 911.”

You will recall that I made this point long ago, that in the end heavy handed police state action that removes power from the citizens is counter-productive, as citizens will not access services that are provided by a government that we no longer trust to do right by us. We will increasingly hear those who have had experience with the establishment warn "what ever you do, dont walk into a rape store and dont contact the police...they will only make your life worse!"

The feminists failed to account for the fact that brain washing their agenda, or as they say "teaching" or "pointing out the myths" will not work on all people, that some people will retain a free mind and will desire to retain free will, and will resent and rebel against the state taking from us our freedom. so long as we have the ability to make our voices heard will will call out and ask for support in going to war with the state in the battle to win back for ourselves and our children our freedom.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 29 Jan, 2011 08:06 pm

And the craziness circle the earth................


http://www.telegraphindia.com/1110130/jsp/northeast/story_13507801.jsp

Prof. accused of rape, fraud
OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT
Agartala, Jan. 29: An assistant professor in the department of mass communication, Tripura University, is facing arrest on charges of rape, fraud and conspiracy.

The university authorities have issued a show cause notice to the professor, Sunil Koloi, 25, this morning. A first information report (FIR) was filed with the West Agartala police station and a deposition made by the victim in the court of judicial magistrate, Tridib Chandra Roy Bhowmik, on Thursday.

Police sources said Koloi, a resident of Malancha Niwas area here, had developed “personal relations” with a girl from an indigenous community, a resident of Gorkha Basti area and a student of MBB College, Agartala, two years ago.

Koloi even promised to marry the girl but started to cold-shoulder her and instead, married a fellow assistant professor from the history department of the university, Roshni Rai, 25, on January 23.

Stung by the betrayal, the girl lodged a complaint with West Agartala police station on January 24, accusing Koloi of rape and conspiracy.

“We have invoked Sections 376 (rape), 493 (illicit relation outside marriage) and 417 (wilful cheating) of Indian Penal Code and we are on the lookout for the accused assistant professor. It seems he is out of the state but we will catch him soon,” said Manindra Debnath, officer in charge of West Agartala police station.





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