25
   

Hey, Can A Woman "Ask To Get Raped"?

 
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 02:40 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
I was talking about your indication that you feel that if a person who was not looking for sex ended up having sex that something might be amiss. Sometimes we find sex when we are looking for it, sometimes we find it when we are not....

You are going one step further then the current standard, that a man should not proposition a woman for sex unless he has some reason to think that she is open to the advance

That is total bullshit. My remarks were made in the context of discussing that particular case--a statutory rape case--and you know that. And there is no indication that the underage females were even looking for sex with that man--that is BillRM's fantasy, and his attempt to shift some blame to the victims.

I see you are back to fabricating what other people post.

We are talking about rape in this thread, not about people seeking consensual sex.
Quote:
The definition of rape is now so broad and fluid that you need to write a paragraph each time you use the word so that we can all know what you are talking about in this particular instance


Rape is non consensual sexual intercourse. Very simple. Sexual intercourse without the consent OF THE PERSON WHO IS RAPED.

hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 02:46 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
We are talking about rape in this thread, not about people seeking consensual sex.

You clearly indicated that the fact that a person was not looking for sex would indicate that the sex was not consensual....when in fact what they were looking for 1 second before they were propositioned makes no difference in the validity of the consent. For now, I bet you want to change this though, want to make sex even more difficult to legally procure than it already is.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 02:47 pm
@firefly,
So the act of getting on top of her and placing her into a position for sex would be using force.

Moving her legs would be force under those conditions.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 02:50 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
So the act of getting on top of her and placing her into a position for sex would be using force.

Moving her legs would be force under those conditions.

Correct. So, all rapes involve some degree of force. And, what defines a "rape" is the absence of consent for the act.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 03:02 pm
Quote:
OPT: Little recourse for victims of gender-based violence
27 January 2011

RAMALLAH, 27 January 2011 (IRIN) - Gender-based violence in the occupied Palestinian territory remains at epidemic levels, according to UN agencies, local NGOs and women, while victims lack legal recourse and often face a family backlash for reporting crimes.

The number of sexual assault cases reported from 2006 to 2009 increased more than seven times, while the number of attempted murder cases (of women) increased five times, according to the Palestinian Authority (PA) women’s affairs ministry. The figures do not including numerous cases of drowning and falling in which a family member was responsible for the incident.

This data prompted the PA to launch a national plan to combat violence against women in January, in conjunction with six partner UN agencies and funded by a US$9 million grant from the Spanish government.

The plan aims to end gender-based violence through prevention, protection and law enforcement. However, even if the laws are successfully amended, most Palestinian women say they prefer not to report crimes against them so as to avoid social stigma and potential divorce.

Shadia Abu-Jawad, aged 24 and recently divorced, from Beit Hanoun in Gaza, told IRIN she reported her ex-husband to the police for abusing her.

“He beat me to the point that my nose bled and I was badly bruised, even on my face,” said Shadia, but “he divorced me for reporting him.” Shadia, unemployed and an unlikely candidate for remarriage now that her case is public, fears her ex-husband will take custody of their two-year-old son.

Basic law

Palestinian basic law, intended as a temporary constitution for the PA, was ratified by the legislature in 1997 and signed into law by former president Yasser Arafat in 2002. Article 92 of the Basic Law says “personal status shall be assumed by Sharia and religious courts in accordance with law.” Personal status laws encompass nearly all legal areas that most acutely affect women, including marriage, divorce, child custody, maintenance, and inheritance.

We demand that all laws related to women’s rights, including personal status law, be transferred from Sharia [Islamic] courts to Palestinian basic law
“We demand that all laws related to women’s rights, including personal status law, be transferred from Sharia [Islamic] courts to Palestinian basic law,” said women’s rights attorney Karem Neshwan, with the Women’s Affairs Council in Gaza.

However, PA women’s affairs minister Rabiha Diab said Palestinian basic law does not give women equal protection under the law.

“The penal code [under Palestinian basic law] includes laws that are unjust to women and must be amended,” said Diab, speaking at a 17 January press conference to launch the plan [to combat violence against women] in Ramallah. “The plan includes long-term development goals to increase the role of women in government,” she said.

Palestinian women, especially those in government, and civil society sectors are looking to judicial reform as a key step towards equality, since changes in attitudes and beliefs about women are coming slowly in this patriarchal society.

“My husband often hits me, and now he is planning to marry a second wife,” said Lina, a 30-year-old from Ramallah. She requested that her family name be omitted. “I want to report him and to leave him, but divorce is scandalous and I fear I could lose custody of our two children.”

Discussion of private matters in a public forum is largely taboo in Palestinian society.

Penal code amendments

Assistant deputy justice minister Munjid Abdullah, in Ramallah, said the ministry is currently amending the penal code, under Palestinian Basic Law, to better protect women like Lina. Several of the amendments to basic law relate to women’s rights.

“Rape and physical abuse between a husband and wife is illegal and falls under criminal law,” he said.

However, Judge Daoud Darawi, a justice ministry consultant and expert in cases of gender-based violence, told IRIN: “The new text makes un-consensual intercourse between a man and a woman illegal, but does not specifically mention relations between husbands and wives.”

“This ambiguity will be a problem; it’s unlikely the law will be implemented between husbands and wives,” he said, adding that the new plan to combat violence against women will be taken into consideration in drafting amendments to the penal code.

Many Palestinian victims of sexual assault and domestic violence say there is no recourse for them, so they choose to remain silent.

“Men and women think domestic violence is permissible under the law, especially if a husband suspects that his wife has committed adultery,” said Reem Gitan, a 21-year-old business major at Birzeit University in Ramallah, the largest West Bank university. “This is a trend across the Arab world, but it’s more connected to Arab culture than to Islam,” she said.

The new code will be drafted in the next 3-6 months and will be implemented in the West Bank and Gaza in about a year, said assistant deputy justice minister Adullah. Although, the ministry has yet to determine if the new code will be presented to Palestinian Mahmoud Abbas for approval or to the legislative council.

“There is no connection between the justice ministry in Ramallah and in Gaza,” said deputy justice minister in Gaza Omar Al-Barsh. “Any law that is approved by the legislative council will be implemented in the West Bank and Gaza, but presidential approval alone is illegal.”

The Palestinian legislative council is currently frozen due the internal conflict between ruling factions Fatah in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza.

Still living under Israeli military occupation, and with 35 percent of the population below the poverty line, according to the UN Development Programme (UNDP), Palestinian women lack the stability and resources to launch a full-scale women’s rights movement.

Helpline

Meanwhile, local women’s NGOs are trying to fill the void of institutional support for victims.

Sawa, a local Palestinian NGO which combats violence against women, operates a helpline seven days a week for abuse victims in the West Bank and Gaza.

“We receive 600-700 calls a day from women; the majority of the callers are victims of domestic violence and incest, and over half are from Gaza,” said director Ohaila Shomar. There is no institutional mechanism related to hospitals or the healthcare system to treat victims or to document their trauma, she said.

“Many callers have questions about health problems related to their assault,” she said, and often the personal security of medical professionals and social workers who assist victims is threatened by the victim’s family.

According to a 2009 study published by the Palestinian Women’s Information and Media Center in Gaza, 67 percent of women were reported to be subjected to verbal violence on a regular basis; 71 percent to psychological violence; 52 percent to physical violence; and 14 percent to sexual violence.

“If a woman reports an assault to the police, especially in a rural area, the community will not stand behind her and she will be labelled promiscuous,” said Raneem Dmari, a 21-year-old psychology student from Jerusalem. “And her husband will leave her or divorce her.”

Even when women are aware of their rights, many feel the risk of losing family or social support makes it not worth seeking justice.

Tamam Adel Hamed, a 57-year-old mother of five from a village outside Ramallah, said she was not seeing change for women in her community. “If a woman [from her area] is raped the perpetrator and the victim are often forced by their families to marry.”

There are currently three safe-houses for victims of gender-based violence in the West Bank - in Ramallah, Nablus and Bethlehem - but there are none in Gaza to date. The PA plan to combat violence intends to create additional safe spaces for victims.
http://www.irinnews.org/PrintReport.aspx?ReportID=91755
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 03:07 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Correct. So, all rapes involve some degree of force.
Lying again, this time about your position. You are on record that a woman having sex after willful self impairment with alcohol makes the man who had sex with her a rapist...no matter how into it she is. There is no force on my part if a drunk woman comes at me for sex, rips her clothes off, lays down and yells (slurring her words of course) "**** me now, for the love of Christ **** me now!" but according to you I am if I comply a rapist.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 03:09 pm
She was drunk--she did not "ask to be raped".
Quote:
Police officer guilty of rape
Gretchen Putnam
The Eagle Tribune
Fri Jan 28, 2011

NEWBURYPORT - Lawrence Police Officer Kevin Sledge has been found guilty of raping a drunken 23-year-old woman behind the police station two and a half years ago.

The Newburyport Superior Court jury deliberated for almost two days before finding him guilty on one count of rape and three counts of indecent assault and battery for the Sept. 26, 2008 incident. As the verdict was read this afternoon, Sledge's wife began to scream.

Sledge, 48, of Salem, N.H., has been a Lawrence police officer for 17 years. He picked up the girl, who admits to being intoxicated, while he was on duty and drove her back to the station where he left her in his car. The woman says Sledge returned to his car several times to rape and assault her.

Sledge was placed on paid leave after his September 2008 arrest and lost his pay when he was indicted several months later.

For more on this story, see tomorrow's The Eagle-Tribune.
http://www.eagletribune.com/latestnews/x1514638242/Police-officer-guilty-of-rape
BillRM
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 03:12 pm
@firefly,
Sorry but sex is not define by the used of force only rape is define by the used of force.

hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 03:17 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Sorry but sex is not define by the used of force only rape is define by the used of force.

the word "force" is still written into some statutes, a carry over from the old sex laws that the rape feminists are hot to fix but who have not yet been able to do so because their agenda has run into resistance. The word was supposed to be gone by now according to plan I think
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 03:27 pm
@BillRM,
Bill, did you notice that when Firefly gets bogged down trying to argue her position (which she cant do because she will not define the most central term and because she is not used to being forced to defend her position because in the past guilt trips and other forms of manipulation have always been all that was required to get what she wants) that she reverts to anecdotal horror stories??

She so KNOWS she that is fucked...
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 03:27 pm
The GOP seems more than slightly out of touch with the reality of rape...and current rape laws.

Quote:
House GOP: Not All Rape Victims Were Really Raped, So They Should Bear Their Rapist's Child.

Kay Steiger, who is guest-blogging for TAPPED this week, mentioned this below, but I wanted to comment further on the recent legislation in the House redefining rape. I wouldn't say that anything House Republicans could do would surprise me at this point, but this is appalling even by contemporary Republican standards. Nick Baumann:

With this legislation, which was introduced last week by Rep. Chris Smith (R-N.J.), Republicans propose that the rape exemption be limited to "forcible rape." This would rule out federal assistance for abortions in many rape cases, including instances of statutory rape, many of which are non-forcible. For example: If a 13-year-old girl is impregnated by a 24-year-old adult, she would no longer qualify to have Medicaid pay for an abortion. (Smith's spokesman did not respond to a call and an email requesting comment.)
[...]

"This bill takes us back to a time when just saying 'no' wasn't enough to qualify as rape," says Steph Sterling, a lawyer and senior adviser to the National Women's Law Center. Laurie Levenson, a former assistant US attorney and expert on criminal law at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles, notes that the new bill's authors are "using language that's not particularly clear, and some people are going to lose protection." Other types of rapes that would no longer be covered by the exemption include rapes in which the woman was drugged or given excessive amounts of alcohol, rapes of women with limited mental capacity, and many date rapes. "There are a lot of aspects of rape that are not included," Levenson says.

So merely being forced to have sex without your consent isn't the same as being raped as far as access to health care is concerned? Can we stop hearing about the Deep Moral Principles of anti-abortion fanatics now? And even more so, can we please stop hearing about how criminalizing abortion is really about protecting women? Can anybody deny that opposition to legal abortion is deeply intertwined with sexism and reactionary beliefs about sexuality at this point?

As an added bonus, this proposal would (in the tradition of the odious Stupak Amendment) not only deny some rape victims direct funding to pay for an abortion, it would prevent them from using money from a Health Savings Account. It's an outrageous bill, and alas there will be plenty more where this came from for at least the next two years.

-- Scott Lemieux
http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/tapped_archive?month=01&year=2011&base_name=house_gop_not_all_rape_victims
BillRM
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 03:30 pm
@firefly,
One wonder if there was any hard physical evidence such as DNA or just that she was very convicting like the lady on the Youtube video telling how the cop had molested her during a traffic stop.

Seem odd that if there were DNA or others hard evidence it would take a jury two days to reach a decision.

I know I would not had care to try to be more convicting telling the truth then that youtube lady was telling a lied.

0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 03:45 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
the word "force" is still written into some statutes, a carry over from the old sex laws that the rape feminists are hot to fix but who have not yet been able to do so because their agenda has run into resistance. The word was supposed to be gone by now according to plan I think


You really should try reading the state sexual assault laws before you comment on them. Your obvious ignorance has been in abundant evidence throughout this thread.

All state statutes differentiate and describe different types of rape, reflecting different degrees of felonies. All states describe some types of rapes that include force, weapons, and extreme threats. There is no intention of ever removing such crimes from the statutes. The sexual assault/rape laws cover all of the various circumstances in which rapes can occur--some of these involve extreme force while others do not, and they are punished accordingly.

All of your bullshit does not help to conceal the fact that you are quite ignorant of the actual laws you criticize.
BillRM
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 03:46 pm
@firefly,
Doing some more research on the rape charges of the officer I found that there was a hung jury and this is the second jury trial on this matter and according to his lawyer there was no physical evidence in this matter.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Lawrence officer's rape trial resumes
Jan 24, 2011 6:46am Email Print LAWRENCE, Mass. (AP) — The second trial of a suspended Lawrence police officer accused of raping a woman passed out in his car is scheduled to restart.
");?> Kevin Sledge's trial on charges of rape and indecent assault is expected to resume Monday in Newburyport.

Authorities allege the 48-year-old Sledge of Salem, N.H., left the police department's booking room, took his personal car to pick up the drunken woman early on the morning of Sept. 26, 2008. Officials say he then brought the woman back to the police station parking lot where the alleged rape took place.

Sledge has pleaded not guilty to all charges. His lawyers have said there is no physical evidence in the case.

His first trial in September ended with a deadlocked jury on the rape charge.

___

BillRM
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 03:55 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
The GOP seems more than slightly out of touch with the reality of rape...and current rape laws.


Given that in statutory rapes cases the courts had cheerfully force men when they become of age to pay child support to women who had statutory rapes them it seem somewhat balance.

Statutory rape is not treated the same as forcible rape for either sex.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 04:02 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
All state statutes differentiate and describe different types of rape, reflecting different degrees of felonies. All states describe some types of rapes that include force, weapons, and extreme threats. There is no intention of ever removing such crimes from the statutes. The sexual assault/rape laws cover all of the various circumstances in which rapes can occur--some of these involve extreme force while others do not, and they are punished accordingly.

Purposefully misleading...under old law force was required, now it is not. Granted that now that DA's are supported in loading up on charges by lawmakers these laws that add to punishment for "special circumstances" (which is what the force part of the rape statutes where converted into) are not going away anytime soon, but they are no more supportable than are "hate crimes" nor calling the same act five different things so that five charges can be laid....our system is awash in bad law.

But thanks for finally admitting that there is indeed a plan, an agenda, for where sex law is going....you spent hundreds of pages denying this after I made the claim. Any bit of truth we can get out of you is an improvement.
BillRM
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 04:05 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
This would rule out federal assistance for abortions in many rape cases, including instances of statutory rape, many of which are non-forcible.


Second it is highly unlikely that any one would be found guilty of rape in the time frame that an abortion was possible so in cases of she said he said and date rapes charges I see little reason or obligation for the Federal government to take the word of the woman unsupported by any court findings of a rape having occur.

In fact such a payment seem to open the danger of false charges being created for the sole purpose of graining access to those funds.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 04:09 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Doing some more research on the rape charges of the officer I found that there was a hung jury and this is the second jury trial on this matter and according to his lawyer there was no physical evidence in this matter.

He was convicted. Even with a jury verdict of guilty, you are looking to find some out, some excuse, not to believe this man is a rapist. Why? He had a defense attorney. The jury took its time deliberating--and they convicted him. He took the stand in his own defense and apparently the jury did not find him credible.
You just can't deal with the fact that rapes occur, and those who commit them deserve to be held accountable and punished.

You do nothing but deny the reality of rape. The jury was able to face it.

BillRM
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 04:17 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
He was convicted. Even with a jury verdict of guilty


Yes the second jury convicted him and if I remember correctly it was your stand that just because a man is found not guilty of rape does not mean that he is not a rapist.

So in the other direction where it took two juries and where there is no physical evidence we can not question a guilty verdict?
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 04:18 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Purposefully misleading...under old law force was required, now it is not...these laws that add to punishment for "special circumstances" (which is what the force part of the rape statutes where converted into)


You are ignorant of your state's sexual assault laws.

"Special circumstances" have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not a rape is forcible.

Felony charges for forcible rapes are included in all state statutes--they haven't been altered or "converted" in any way. You just don't understand the different degrees of felonies. And you are ignorant of the actual laws.

Ignorance is not bliss, Hawkeye--it's simply ignorance.

Keep demonstrating your ignorance. You are quite good at it.
 

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