25
   

Hey, Can A Woman "Ask To Get Raped"?

 
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 10:34 am
@BillRM,
...which is why I said it depends on what state you're in.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 10:45 am
@firefly,
Quote:
It is fairly easy to get away with raping a woman. All the statistics indicate that.


There more then enough injustices to go around on the rape issue on both sides.

The men who spend many decades in prisons until DNA testing ended up proving that they was not the one who raped the women. Who know how many others innocent’s men that are still behind bars because there are not available DNA to test.

The seven Duke players put through hell for over a year along with their families and friends and when the truth came out the low life false accuser walk away completely free.

The poor kid that need to go through years of court hearing because some nut change her mind in the middle of having sex and then complain that even those he did stop it was not fast enough for her.

The case of the basketball player who ended up needing to paid his accuser millions to get her to go away after she follow him to his room and beginning fooling around and then cry rape.

The woman attacking Gore good name looking for a similar payoff and getting her 15 minutes of frame.

More far more then enough injustice to go around.

0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 11:23 am
@snood,
Not you, no. I guess two are taking up a lot of room.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 11:42 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
or the intoxicated

Not if the person enter into the intoxicated state willingly.

Even then, depending on degree of intoxication.

If some blackout drunk is lying flat on his back, snoring loudly and smelling like a distillery from 10 feet away, you can't exactly claim he's in any condition to give valid consent to a damn thing. Why don't you read the article I linked - it's not too long - it will help you understand the general case of the meaning of valid consent. This legal approach is quite ingenious because it applies in all cases where the presence of valid consent means there is no crime. E.g. if you were to remove the wallet of the drunk (see above) while he was passed out, it won't help you to prove that earlier in the same evening he had offered to lend you the money he had in his wallet; you have to wait until he wakes up before you touch the money, otherwise it's theft:
Quote:
Consider the offenses of rape, kidnapping, theft, and trespass,
to name just a few. In all of them, the act itself does not violate a
prohibitory norm. Having sex, transporting someone to a different
location, taking other people’s property, or entering someone’s home
is not bad per se. The act becomes bad only due to the attendant
circumstance, namely, the lack of consent
; unless consent is missing,
the conduct is outside the boundaries of criminal law..

hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 11:44 am
@DrewDad,
Quote:
I'm not sure why HS decided to jump in and muddy the waters
HS did not muddy the waters, they are already muddy. Both in legal and philosophical circles the theory and definition of consent in currently in hot debate.

here is a review of one of the books where consent is explored, along with a broad range of disagreements on the subject:
http://ndpr.nd.edu/review.cfm?id=1381
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 11:55 am
Another one for Bill, and to again refute Fireflys idiotic claim that rape is now what it always was, incase anyone still believes that bold faced lie
Quote:
Sexual Consent Laws:
The Definition of Rape is Changing


In the United States rape has long been a punishable offense, and now the possibilities for punishment are even greater. In California there was recently a case that challenged the old definition of rape. The old rule used to say that rape did not occur when a woman initially consented and then later withdrew her consent. In early January 2003 the California Supreme Court ruled differently, "We conclude that the offense of forcible rape occurs when, during apparently consensual intercourse, the victim expresses an objection and attempts to stop the act and the defendant forcibly continues despite the objection" (Cooper, 2003:1).

In the case that challenged the old rule, a 17-year-old girl, Laura T., had consented to sex with the defendant, John, but then later told him that she needed to go home. While she never explicitly told him to stop, he continued for, "four or five minutes after Laura's first statement and for a minute to 90 seconds after her third and final one" (Cooper, 2003:2). John had apparently told Laura, "Just give me a minute" (Cooper, 2003:2). While this case may not appear to be rape to some, the California Supreme Court has ruled that it was indeed a rape. The Court took into account what was called a "primal urge theory" that could possibly justify a "reasonable time" rule for John's failure to stop. However, the Court later rejected this claim saying that John had been given sufficient time to withdraw and that the law books would not allow for such a claim of "reasonable time" (Cooper, 2003:2). It is important to remember that rape does not occur when a woman simply changes her mind or feels that she has made a bad decision. In this case, John had also grabbed Laura's waist and pushed her down while she was making the statements that she needed to go home.

This is a very important ruling because it changes the definition of rape in a very dramatic way. This change has happened not only in California. Minnesota, South Dakota, Connecticut, Maine, and Alaska have all produced very similar court decisions (Cooper, 2003:1). There are likely to be more states that follow in this pattern of decision making when they receive a case that can challenge the old standard. While it is critical to remember that men can also be raped, the cases here have involved males raping females. This change is important for males and females to consider when they consent to sexual intercourse, and it is vital for both parties involved to be fully aware of their rights.

References: Cooper, Claire. "Court: Rape begins when woman says no." Sacramento Bee Newspaper (www.sacbee.com). Published January 7, 2003.
http://www.soc.ucsb.edu/sexinfo/article/sexual-consent-laws

The man was wrong but so was the woman for not being clear about what she wanted. This never should have been rape, in fact never should have seen the criminal justice system, this should have resulted in a mandatory counseling appointment, for both.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 11:57 am
@snood,
snood wrote:

DrewDad wrote:

High Seas wrote:
But don't you see - consent can still be granted,

Um... no. The person can say "yes", but if they are incapacitated then legally consent has still not been given.

I may not be reading it accurately, but I thing HS was simply saying that with incapacitation would come some ambiguity in determining in court whether legal consent was given.

That's exactly right - there's ambiguity because there are degrees of validity in consent. The article excerpts I posted make that very clear - and I'm surprized that DD can't locate the .pdf - but here's the google-docs shortcut anyway (sorry for length of link, have no time to make it shorter):
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:v6qWYbPIreAJ:docs.law.gwu.edu/stdg/gwlr/issues/pdf/Bergelson.pdf+bergelson+consent+legal+rape+murder+cannibal+germany+new+york&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShCUpkGX9IS-VHWeTzqGa44OmbHh7m60rSva6e14Q25UEus3i_kpL_eqpwljI3Cr4GrE96Z6l7X8GvgxBoDbvVroKGlP3U7lGkw6XR9Tzo4DtR5Uj1rUhhNR6hReZrLQZW6g_d-&sig=AHIEtbQ4keQpkSDpqN02Xf7mLUQdzgE5VA
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 12:20 pm
@High Seas,
Quote:
That's exactly right - there's ambiguity because there are degrees of validity in consent
yes, and the threshold of consent required to avoid a criminal charge is steadily increasing, with no end in sight.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 12:29 pm
Quote:
The implications of these debates over the role and legitimacy of conventional accounts of consent have been felt across a number of areas of legal, political, and moral theory. In this article, however, attention will be focused exclusively on their relevance for our understanding of, and responses to, sexual consent. More specifically, this article will examine recent legislative efforts, in England and Wales, to construct a criminal rape code that reflects a more context-sensitive understanding of the consent threshold, and insists upon the development of a more communicative terrain for socio-sexual interaction. There is little doubt that the resulting Sexual Offences Act 2003 represents a well-intentioned intervention, and it can indeed be seen to offer some significant improvements.4 At the same time, however, it will be argued that the legislative framework does (perhaps, can do) little to recognize, let alone problematize, the complex ways in which entrenched power disparities, material inequalities, relational dynamics, and socio-sexual norms operate to construct and constrain not only women’s ability to say ‘no’ to male sexual initiative, and to have that refusal accredited both by society and law, but also – and perhaps even more problematically – to say ‘yes,’ at least in the kind of free and unfettered way that the liberal model of autonomy often seems to presume.
http://www.uakron.edu/law/lawreview/v41/docs/Munro_final08.pdf

The law is not a good institution for the collective to use as the primary agent as it attempts to regulate sexual functioning of individuals, and current law does have flawed assumptions written into it which are on the whole biased against men. Reform is required.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 03:58 pm
http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1719

False Rape Accusations May Be More Common Than Thought
May 2, 2006
Wendy McElroy
Foxnews.com



Is it the new 1-in-4 statistic?

I don't mean the widely-circulated '1-in-4 women will be raped in their lifetime' but a statistic that suggests '1-in-4 accusations of rape are false.'

For a long time, I have been bothered by the elusiveness of figures on the prevalence of false accusations of sexual assault. The crime of 'bearing false witness' is rarely tracked or punished, and the context in which it is usually raised is highly politicized.

Politically correct feminists claim false rape accusations are rare and account for only 2 percent of all reports. Men's rights sites point to research that places the rate as high as 41 percent. These are wildly disparate figures that cannot be reconciled.

This week I stumbled over a passage in a 1996 study published by the U.S. Department of Justice: Convicted by Juries, Exonerated by Science: Case Studies in the Use of DNA Evidence to Establish Innocence After Trial.

The study documents 28 cases which, "with the exception of one young man of limited mental capacity who pleaded guilty," consist of individuals who were convicted by juries and, then, later exonerated by DNA tests.

At the time of release, they had each served an average of 7 years in prison.

The passage that riveted my attention was a quote from Peter Neufeld and Barry C. Scheck, prominent criminal attorneys and co-founders of the Innocence Project that seeks to release those falsely imprisoned.

They stated, "Every year since 1989, in about 25 percent of the sexual assault cases referred to the FBI where results could be obtained, the primary suspect has been excluded by forensic DNA testing. Specifically, FBI officials report that out of roughly 10,000 sexual assault cases since 1989, about 2,000 tests have been inconclusive, about 2,000 tests have excluded the primary suspect, and about 6,000 have "matched" or included the primary suspect."

The authors continued, "these percentages have remained constant for 7 years, and the National Institute of Justice's informal survey of private laboratories reveals a strikingly similar 26 percent exclusion rate."

If the foregoing results can be extrapolated, then the rate of false reports is roughly between 20 (if DNA excludes an accused) to 40 percent (if inconclusive DNA is added). The relatively low estimate of 25 to 26 percent is probably accurate, especially since it is supported by other sources.

Before analyzing the competing figures, however, caveats about the one just mentioned are necessary.

First, the category of 'false accusations' does not distinguish between accusers who lie and those who are honestly mistaken. Nor does it indicate that a rape did not occur, merely that the specific accused is innocent.

Thus, there is a drive by voices for reform, like the Innocence Institute, to improve eyewitness identification techniques within police departments.

For example, the Innocence Institute suggests "Police should use a 'double-blind' photo identification procedure where someone other than the investigator -- who does not know who the suspect is -- constructs photo arrays with non-suspects as fillers to reduce suggestiveness."

Second, even if false accusations are as common as 1-in-4, that means 75 percent of reports are probably accurate and, so, all accusations deserve a thorough and professional investigation.

Third, the 1-in-4 figure has 'fuzzy' aspects that could influence the results. For example, Neufeld and Scheck mention only sexual assault cases that were "referred to the FBI where results could be obtained."

It is not clear what percentage of all reported assaults are represented by those cases. As well, the terms 'rape' and 'sexual assault' are often used interchangeably, especially when comparing studies, and it is not clear that they are always synonyms for each other.

Nevertheless, the FBI data on excluded DNA is as close to hard statistics that I've found on the rate of false accusations of sexual assault.

Where do the other figures come from and why is there reason to doubt them? Let me consider the two statistics that I have encountered most often.

"Two percent of all reports are false."

Several years ago, I tried to track down the origin of this much-cited stat. The first instance I found of the figure was in Susan Brownmiller's book on sexual assault entitled "Against Our Will" (1975). Brownmiller claimed that false accusations in New York City had dropped to 2 percent after police departments began using policewomen to interview alleged victims.

Elsewhere, the two percent figure appears without citation or with only a vague attribution to "FBI" sources. Although the figure shows up in legislation such as the Violence Against Women Act, legal scholar Michelle Anderson of Villanova University Law School reported in 2004, "no study has ever been published which sets forth an evidentiary basis for the two percent false rape complaint thesis."

In short, there is no reason to credit that figure.

"Forty-one percent of all reports are false."

This claim comes from a study conducted by Eugene J. Kanin of Purdue University. Kanin examined 109 rape complaints registered in a Midwestern city from 1978 to 1987.

Of these, 45 were ultimately classified by the police as "false." Also based on police records, Kanin determined that 50 percent of the rapes reported at two major universities were "false."

Although Kanin offers solid research, I would need to see more studies with different populations before accepting the figure of 50 percent as prevalent; to me, the figure seems high.

But even a skeptic like me must credit a DNA exclusion rate of 20 percent that remained constant over several years when conducted by FBI labs. This is especially true when 20 percent more were found to be questionable.

False accusations are not rare. They are common.

hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 04:04 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Politically correct feminists claim false rape accusations are rare and account for only 2 percent of all reports
Politically correct feminists get really pissy when people start poking around questions they dont want asked...looking for facts and evidence. It gets in the way of their agenda.

YOu will see over and over again good people asking good Questions and the feminists and other pressure groups responding with some variation of "it is not helpful to go in that direction"...helpful implied to be to all of mankind but what they really mean is helpful to their cause. Unfortunately, up till now this power play has often worked to shut down the question asking.
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 04:35 pm
@hawkeye10,
Hawkeye they also like to charge you with being unfeelings towards women who had been sadly raped.

However placing the majority of men freedom at the whim of their sexual partners or placing insulting posters around college campuses is not going to stop one rape.

Men and women are met to be partners in life however there are too many people that wish to turn them into enemies.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 05:21 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:

Hawkeye they also like to charge you with being unfeelings towards women who had been sadly raped
That IS how anyone would play the victim card. It has been played too often by women for my tastes however, and I dont fancy myself a chump so I no longer roll with that.

As an aside, back in the mid eighties I considered myself a feminist, and a lot of my associates were feminists, some of them militant. The argument made sense 25 years ago, but no longer does. and the argument has changed, as women got power those in the movement came to want more power, the old goals were repealed for new more ambitious goals, and once they felt they had men on the run they decided that did not want to stop.

Now if women want to claim victim status in my opinion they need to come loaded with facts. And then I will present mine. I would rather work together for the good of both, but since women (or at least the pressure groups that claim to represent women) dont want to work together in fairness then I can do conflict as well. I will however not allow myself to be run over, and if women dont agree with what is being done in their name then they need to renounce the feminists and the anti-rape lobby groups.
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 06:29 pm
@hawkeye10,
Hell Hawkeye at one time I was a card-carrying member of NOW!!!!

No joking.

I did not renew my membership when I could not get the local branch involved in aiding a very batter woman.

That also taught me a lesson because I was part of a group that did aid this lady who sadly was being beaten up like clockwork by her husband and the police at the time did little!

At great efforts and expense, we aid in relocating her to Las Vegas with a job and an apartment.

Three years go by the husband and her reconnected by telephone and then he talks her into returning to him in Florida.

Within one or two weeks, he was in jail and she was in the hospital having been beaten to near death.

I had never been so mad in my life however not at him but her.

At a guess well over 15 thousands of private money and roughly a thousand of my own money along with a great deal of work and the fool throw it all away to go back for a beating.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 06:43 pm
Does anyone remember the name of the law that (I believe) all states have adopted concerning domestic abuse? If there is any evidence at all of any type of abuse the police have to remove one of the occupants? Nancy McKeon was in a movie about the lady's situation that brought this about. I think the guy's name was Buck (in real life). While the cops were standing right there this guy cut her throat, jumped up and down on her head, kicked her in the head and back, etc. She sued the police department and city and won. She was unfortunately very disabled from the attack. As far as I know, he is still threatening to kill her if he gets out of jail. One of the saddest movies I'd ever seen but so glad a law came about that actually does something in the heat of the argument.

I found it.


http://www.answers.com/topic/a-cry-for-help-the-tracey-thurman-story

Quote:
Tracey Thurman was a real-life Connecticut housewife who, throughout her marriage, suffered horrendous abuse at the hands of her husband. The beatings culminate in a single bloody night when Buck Thurman stabs his estranged wife 13 times. She survives--barely--and Buck is arrested. Having failed to get proper protection from the local police force, Tracey successfully sued the officers in 1989. The long-range result was the Thurman Law, which called for mandatory arrests in wife-beating cases in Connecticut and several other states. Nancy McKeon, who plays Tracey Thurman in A Cry for Help, starred in the film in the hope that it would prevent Buck Thurman's early release from prison. A Cry For Help: The Tracy Thurman Story first aired on October 2, 1989; Thurman was scheduled for release in 1991. ~ Hal Erickson, All Movie Guide


The saddest thing about the situation was she did all the right things. Protection Order, called the police, got a lawyer, etc.
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 06:57 pm
@Arella Mae,
Mandatory arrests laws had resulted in the police at times arresting both the man and the woman.

That occur when an old-ex-girlfriend of mine got into a physical fight with her then husband and they both ended up in jail for the night.

I also read comments that because at least some police departments are arresting both parties as a normal routine under the mandatory arrest laws women are in fact becoming slower to call the police.
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 06:59 pm
@BillRM,
My point was that AT LEAST ONE of the people had to be taken off the premises. I am sure there are many instances where both are removed.
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 07:00 pm
@Arella Mae,
Quote:
The saddest thing about the situation was she did all the right things. Protection Order, called the police, got a lawyer, etc.


But she did not get the best protection if all else fail, a model 1911a colt 45.
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 07:03 pm
@Arella Mae,
That fine but it the woman have a reasonable fear she is going to end up in jail also she is going to be slower to call the police in the first place.

Is a night in jail and an arrest record better or worst then a beating?
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Mon 26 Jul, 2010 07:06 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
I also read comments that because at least some police departments are arresting both parties as a normal routine under the mandatory arrest laws women are in fact becoming slower to call the police.
very likely true....if fact almost certainly true. These laws have been on the books for awhile, we should have a definitive answer on this, because it is a relatively straight forward process for the social scientists to find out. I would like to know that answer, and if the answer is unknown want to know who is responsible for such a serious failure to monitor the changes in sex law.

The mandatory arrest laws are compounded by the mandatory prosecution laws, if someone was wronged in domestic violence and they call the cops they are in effect putting their partner into the system, with hefty penalties certain to be applied, most of which will degrade the victims life. Plenty of good reason to NOT call the cops.
0 Replies
 
 

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