Hey, Can A Woman "Ask To Get Raped"?

Such fine upstanding morals you have hawkeye. And you think YOU have the key to sexual assault laws?

We were trying to get rid of the puritan morality of the law when we struck down the sodomy and seduction laws, but now the problem of sexual violation has been used as an excuse to bring it back.

NOT. COOL.

Yes how dare anyone think they should not break a law, or cheat on their spouse, or lie. We definitely need to get rid of such puritan values. Like I have said many times, if you don't like the laws, then lobby to change them. Until then, you are bound by them. You break them, you suffer the consequences of making the choice of not following them. The judge isn't going to care if you think it's a bad law or not.

This whole thing is about YOU and your ilk not having any responsibility or any consequences or any accountability for whatever it is YOU want to do. That is what isn't cool.

Firefly is correct that these laws are routinely ignored, which pretty much destroys your argument.

LOLOLOLOLOL! Kind of ruins your arugment that since THEY ARE ROUTINELY IGNORED then how can they be falsely accused??????????????

LOL and you sticking up for anything firefly has said after you have done nothing but demean and bash her every post? LOL!

Firefly is not wrong about everything. I have said before that back in the seventies when we began this push to reform sex law it was the right thing to do. Back then there was a significant problem of the sexual violation of women and the courts were not very helpful in bringing to justice the perps.

The trouble is the the feminist movement was later hijacked by leftist rebels who by and large dont like men very much, and once the feminists gained power in writing sex law and once they were successful in creating the rape industry with federal tax dollars they decided to sacrifice justice and the principle of equality in order to pursue power. The feminist movement became malignant, and now needs to be excised. The root cause of this malignancy is the womens studies departments of universities, which are no better than Madrases when it comes to education. They are training programs for radicals, not instruments of education.

Sorry hawkeye but I am laughing way too hard to even try to continue in a serious conversation with you.

That works for me, as it is time to cook my part of Christmas eve dinner....family comes before debate.

I wish you a merry Christmas, even though I am Zen (Dont believe in PC)

Ignoring the law is what criminals do every day. Ignoring the law is what gets people arrested. Ignoring the law is not macho. Ignoring the law will, eventually, get you caught. That will be a good day for the law.

That is one of the funniest things I have read in a while.

Bullshit as there is not a question in any one mind if given the power your would lock up every male who taken part is BDSM and place any female into involuntary treatment programs for consenting to take part in BDSM.

All under the theory that no consent could be valid for such behaviors that you do not approve of and the women being mental ill and therefore unable to grant consent.

Ok so you wish for a religion police to be set up to go after anyone who does not follow you life path.

Nothing to do with rape or sexual assault just your wish to imposed your will on the rest of us in the name of your god.

So take God out of it. Fact is, he still made a vow and didn't stick to it.

Don't throw that religion police line at me bill. I have not been trying to shove my beliefs down anyone's throat here. I state how I feel about things and for the most part I keep my religious beliefs out of it, mostly because people like you, like to make that the focus and take the real focus off of yourselves.

I am going to go make some chocolate pecan pies. We can take this up again later if you wish.

So, not only do you claim the right to police my sex life you also want to police my performance in marriage.....GREAT.

You must love Sharia Law.....

My point is, how can anyone trust you if you will break a vow as sacred as a marriage vow is supposed to be. Personally, I never wanted to hear about your sex life but you, for some unknown reason, saw fit to tell us all about it.

If you are going to live in a manner that basically goes against what is considered the "norm" for most, don't for one minute think no one does not have the right to express their feelings about it.

I am not trying to police your sex life in any way. Like I said, I am giving you my opinion of YOUR character based on YOUR own words.

I and I am fairly sure Hawkeye also have zero concerns about any magic words said to us that we then said I do to in the standard married ceremonial and for myself the only vows that have any meaning is those taken in private between my wife and myself before hand.

From his postings to date both his wife and him was in full agreement about not being sexually faithful to each other before they decide to get married so those vows you are so concern about is meaningless from the start.

Vows only have meaning between the people involved and not your fantasy god.

There are a boatload of problems with this statement.To start with marriage might be sacred to you but that does not mean that it is to me (it is, but this is besides the point). Secondly, I did not make any promise to you, I made it to my wife, she is the only one besides me who gets a say in my fidelity to my vows. Thirdly, what gives you the impression that you, as an outsider who knows almost nothing about me, nothing about my wife and what she wants/needs, and almost nothing about our marriage are in a position to pass judgement on our marriage even if you did have the right to do so?? You don't, the most you can say is that you don't get it....you can say that you dont understand why my wife stays with me (which I believe that both you and Firefly have said) and if I chose to I would explain it to you, though I am under no obligation to do so.

Thus business about going into other people intimate encounters and figuring out what happened and if any wrongs were committed is a very tricky business, even if we have the right to pass judgement and have subpoena powers a lot of the time we can not come to any firm conclusions after the fact, which is a big part of why it so often happens that women who think that they have been sexually wronged making reports to police so often does not result in any charges. It will always be thus, unless we become willing to run over the Constitutional rights of the accused, which is certainly what the rape feminists want to do. We could get around the problem if we did not insist upon putting these situations into the criminal justice system, if we put them into the public health system we could sit both individuals down in front of a pro and have them try to figure out what went wrong and how to avoid the problem in the future. The trick is to get outside of the blame game and learning to take responsibility for choices that we made that could have been better. If a woman gets drunk and leaves her friends and gets into the car with a brutish looking black man and ends up raped at his camp site then she needs to take responsibility for her DECISION to get drunk, her DECISION to leave her friends,and her DECISION to get into the car with a guy she did not know. He needs to take responsibility for his DECISION to take advantage of an easy lay even though she was not in control of herself. Only if she was passed out, or he hurt her, or if he was predatory should be be up on a criminal charge however. Telling such a woman "you poor thing, it was all his fault" is not helpful, it tends to deprive this stupid girl of an opportunity to learn from her mistakes and do better next time.

I read your "may not be sacred to me" statement and nearly puked. Is that how much you treasure your wife? Your marriage is not sacred to you? That poor woman.

I tried one more time having a decent conversation with the two of you and once again, it was to no avail. Someday I may learn.

working on your comprehension skills would help, but that will not fix your either having lived a sheltered life or else willingness to filter out anything that does not agree with your world view. People want/need things that you either can not or will not grasp.

Unlike you I want people to get what they want/need though consensual relationships, I have no desire to police wants or desires, only acts which violate my space and freedom, or when someone comes forward and says that their space or freedom has been violated. I not only have no desire to encourage women to feel violated sexually as the rape feminists and rape industry continually do but feel that this is a bad idea. If a woman comes forward and says that she has been violated I want to get to the bottom of it and do what I can to try to prevent it from happening again, but I dont want to encourage the victim identity. I also dont want to create abusers by continually redefining rape and "sexual assault" downwards just so that we can have more victims to administer to...... which is exactly what the feminists and rape industry is now doing so that they can justify their funding and existence, as the continuation of the rape industry is critical towards to fulfillment of the feminist agenda. The Feminists have put all of their eggs into this basket, if the rape industry in terminated then so are they.

That is truly one of the most absurd statements you have made in this thread.

When women share equally in economic and political power, feminism will no longer be needed as advocacy. The "rape industry", as you call it, has absolutely nothing to do with achieving those objectives. Unlike you, most people, including feminists, have considerably more on their minds than sex or even crimes of sexual assault. When our legislatures and our major corporate boardrooms contain a realistic proportion of female faces, the need for feminism will be moot.

Your personal sex life and your sexual preferences could not be of less concern to me. Your need for sexual encounters outside of your marriage is of no concern to me. Your personal views on the rape laws are of no concern to me.

The problem with you is that you keep seeking to redefine "rape"--you want it exclusively limited to the most physically forceful, often brutal, sexual assaults--those most often committed by strangers, and involving weapons, beatings, or severe intimidation and threat. Anything else, you dismiss as "non rape" or "rape lite" or "grey rape". In your mind, these "rapes" just aren't so bad. They are "bad sex" or something one should just put out of her mind. Unfortunately, your views are not reflective of the reality of sexual assault.

The overwhelming majority of sexual assaults are committed by someone known to the victim--a spouse, a relative, a friend, an acquaintance, a date, a neighbor, a co-worker, etc. That significantly changes how these crimes take place and the circumstantial details involved, as well as the impact on the victim and how the crime is perceived by her and whether it is reported. It does not, however, diminish the seriousness of the crime, nor its destructive and devastating effects. And rape laws must recognize the spectrum of situations in which such sexual assaults occur, and that is why the rape laws have evolved during the past several decades--they have become more reflective of the reality of rape. They also no longer require that victims be beaten to a bloody pulp to prove that extreme physical force was used, which also reflects the reality of rape and how rape victims react.

Being raped by someone known to a victim has a far greater impact--psychologically and emotionally--than being raped by a stranger. It carries with it issues of profound betrayal of trust and sense of security, and more guilt, shame and stigma than victims of stranger rape generally report. And the rapist may often remain in the life of the victim, or within her immediate environment, so the psychological and emotional impact of the assault continues long after the event. There is nothing less severe about these rapes because they are not committed by strangers, or might not involve extreme force, in fact, the contrary is true.

You lack all objectivity on the topic of rape because you seem unable to consider these crimes, or the laws that define them, without personal reference to your own sexual behaviors, needs, and preferences. That makes you extremely narrow minded and rather self serving in your opinions. And it is probably the best reason to ignore most of what you say.

The laws do not exist for you alone, and they aren't going to change for you alone. The laws do not affect normal consensual sexual interactions. They do not determine, or even impinge on, what two adult, fully aware, consenting individuals decide to do in private.

So, whether you choose to ignore rape laws, or tax evasion laws, or traffic laws, is of no personal concern to me. Your morality is of no concern to me. But, when you violate those laws, I want to see you held accountable and responsible, and I want to see you punished in accordance with law. No one is above the law, Hawkeye, not even you.

I don't want to encourage a "victim mentality". I want to prevent people from becoming victims of sexual assaults, just as I would like to see people protected from becoming victims of any other type of crime. I want to see the laws--all laws--have a strong deterrent effect because they will be enforced. And we have moved in that direction with the sexual assault laws. We have a long way to go, but we have made definite progress.

And if all of this distresses you, or cramps your particular sexual functioning, that doesn't concern me one iota. The laws exist for the general welfare. The world does not revolve around you or the rather boring details of your personal sexual activities. How you get your orgasms, or make yourself feel like "a man" has absolutely no relevance to this discussion. Whether you consider yourself some sort of "sexual freedom fighter" has no relevance to the discussion. Your simplistic and sociologically inaccurate analyzes of sexual mores and gender conflicts have no relevance to this discussion. This topic is not about you or your rather grandiose view that this is all about your sex life and your perceived threats to that sphere of your functioning.

The topic is the crime of rape--as that crime is defined by current laws. Not what you think rape should be. Not how you want to see the laws changed. Not about your personal paranoid conspiracy theories about who is behind the laws.

The era of blaming victims for their own rape is moving toward an end. No one "asks to be raped"--and that is the message of the current rape laws. Responsibility for a rape rests with those who violate those laws, and no amount of rationalization or "rape apologizing" or self serving victim blame is going to obscure that fact. And those who violate those laws will have to pay the legal price.

You want to violate or look for loopholes in those rape laws? You're free to do that. Just don't start whining when they slap the cuffs on you. And don't whine about it here either. If you don't like the laws, go out in the real world and change them--if you can find anyone who will support that. Meanwhile, those laws remain in force. And it is those laws we are discussing. And we want them enforced. And by "we" I mean every woman I know, or have ever known, and most of the men as well. So, drop your "rape feminist" crap and deal with reality. Most people support these laws. And frankly, your protestations don't matter. I'm sure you don't like the tax codes either. That's the price you pay for living in an organized society governed by laws, like it or not.