25
   

Hey, Can A Woman "Ask To Get Raped"?

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 2 Dec, 2010 08:34 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
freely willing agreement
does this allow me to use a guilt approach, as in "we have not had sex in three days, sex is a normal part of marriage and I really want to do it right now...please dont say no again, if you reject me again I dont know how I am going to stand it"?

She is free to say no, if she says yes then she is willing to do it even if it is to shut me up, and it is after all an agreement even though most would probably find the way it came about distasteful.

At the end of the day she said yes, she consented as it is normally defined, so does the state have the right to look at all of the factors that lead up to the yes and perhapse decide that the yes does not count? Weeks or months after the night in question? Thus turning me into a rapist?
Ionus
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 2 Dec, 2010 08:39 pm
This is typical of what the libbie lobby are capable of......

Quote:
DAVID DOUGHERTY recently reminded journalist Donna Chisholm of the promise she made the first time he called her from prison.

"He said I'd told him, `I'm going to write a story about you every week until you're out'. And he was kind of comforted by that."

The Sunday Star-Times reporter kept faith with the man wrongfully imprisoned for the abduction and rape of an 11-year-old girl. Twenty articles were published over five months until Dougherty won a retrial: "Mother's tears of joy as son returned," said the headlines.

But in so many ways, that was just the start of the story.

For another five years, Chisholm the journalist, Arie Geursen the scientist and Murray Gibson the lawyer, continued to fight. They supported Dougherty through the harrowing retrial, a protracted bid for compensation and the eventual arrest of Nicholas Reekie the real rapist, the man whose semen was 700,000 million times more likely than any other unrelated man to have caused the stain on the victim's pyjama pants.

Next Sunday, Until Proven Innocent, the made-for-television version of events, will screen on TV1. Viewers will be confronted with the questions campaigners still ask: Why did it all take so long? What went wrong with the David Dougherty case?

Arie Geursen, the bridge-playing molecular biologist who now works for Fonterra, answer succinctly. "The justice system is a monkey."

At an informal lunch, in a suburban Auckland garden, the campaign team relive the story for the Star-Times.

The journalist, the lawyer, the scientist. A holy trinity of truth, immortalised, respectively, by actors Jodie Rimmer, Peter Elliot and Tim Spite. Cohen Holloway plays Dougherty, who is not giving interviews about the movie but, in a message to its production company, said the project had given him a sense of peace and closure.

"I know for some of you it was a job, but I want you all to know, it meant everything to me. I can't tell you what you've done to my world. Tell Donna and Murray and Arie that the things they've done and impact they've had on my life could never be put into words. Please give them all my love and thanks."

They never set out to become crusaders.

Gibson: "It was just another case."

Chisholm: "It was a great story."

Geursen: "The science was straightforward - they clearly had the wrong man."

Ad Feedback Inevitably, though, it became more personal than professional. Chisholm says she would have resigned "if I'd come a cropper... You're always taught not to become part of it [the story]. When you absolutely know you're right, you can't think of anything else."

Gibson says, "we knew we were acting for an innocent party. We couldn't let it go".

They're in Chisholm's backyard eating take-out Thai chicken curry. There's a cat on Gibson's lap. What's its name? Chisholm looks nonplussed. "Umm... Marge," she suddenly recalls, then launches into a story about the time she was buying cat food and realised she hadn't seen the cat for a week and a half. Chalkie is still missing. Presumed dead.

Don't read too much into that. How much does Chisholm care? When Dougherty was in prison, she took daily phone calls from him. When he was released, she arranged counselling, bought groceries, tried to find him somewhere to live.

"I got involved with David more than any journalist should. Not in any unseemly way... but this was something I had to keep going."

In 2002, in one of Chisholm's very few pieces of first-person reportage, she wrote: "During the six years of the campaign I watched Dougherty's mental disintegration. It was as if he was being carried in the surf, picked up time and again by the highs his release from jail and subsequent acquittal; a police report acknowledging his innocence and pounded in the sand by the lows then Justice Minister Doug Graham's obstinate refusal to accept he didn't do it and the debilitating two-year wait for a compensation decision..."

This was the man who sent her son matchbox toys for Christmas, who inquired after her parent's health.

"He's got a terrific sense of family."

"Because he got denied that himself," says Gibson. "Got denied looking after his father."

Dougherty's father died believing his son's innocence. Chisholm, Gibson and Geursen honoured that belief.

THE SCIENTIST arrived late to last week's lunch. He cleared Chisholm's mailbox and teased Gibson about the flash Mercedes parked across the street. He missed the bit where the pair referred to him as "the real hero" of the case.

Way back when, Gibson subpoenaed Geursen to give evidence in a murder trial. They became friends. When the scientist saw a headline in the New Zealand Herald about Dougherty's first appeal and the DNA evidence that ESR claimed pointed both to Dougherty and away from him alarm bells rang.

"Arie was bright enough to see that couldn't happen... that there was a problem with the analysis and interpretation," says Gibson.

"A child could work it out," says Geursen.

The lawyer went to see Dougherty that week. "David was being shipped out of Paremoremo the next day. If he'd been shipped down the line already, I don't know if I would have gone."

Gibson says this so matter-of-factly it takes a minute for the import to sink in. Sometimes, the right people are in the right place at the right time. Ultimately, perhaps, Dougherty can thank his freedom on that simple fact.

"I'll never forget. He said, `Mr Gibson, I'm innocent of this'. Lawyers hear this all the time, but he said it with quite a bit of conviction."

Chisholm's involvement came after a year of phoning Gibson, asking for an interview. "I resisted," says Gibson.

"He was a complete arse," says Chisholm.

"Sorry, sweet," says a completely unrepentant Gibson. He recalls he eventually sent her to talk to Geursen. She won him over by learning the science. Gibson says, "I realised David's case could be swept under the carpet unless the injustice of it was brought to the public's attention".

But initially the trio found little sympathy. Anonymous hate mail circulated, "abusive letters suggesting the Star-Times had got it wrong," wrote Chisholm, in a story headlined The Goliath Fight for David.

They kept working. Chisholm, from a horse-training family background; Gibson, the son of a chemist from working-class Spreydon, Christchurch; Geursen, the Dutch immigrant who came to Auckland at 11 and lived briefly in Kawerau before his father took a job at the Marsden oil refinery.

"I'm still astonished it was such a hard job," says Geursen. "When I sat and watched the movie the other day, the anger welled up in me again. That it took as long as it did it was cruel."

Remarkably, Guersen and Dougherty have never met.

"I had to ensure I maintained my scientific integrity. I felt David would need me again, and that proved to be correct, throughout that battle for compensation, I made absolutely sure that I stayed at arms length and then, when it was all over, I think our paths just simply didn't cross."

NO UPDATE on Dougherty's life has been made available to the Star-Times. Last week, the trio continued to protect him. Gibson: "He's good. He's working. He's always been very employable... it's terribly hard for people when they come out of jail, let alone when they come out for something they didn't do."

Says Chisholm, "the whole thing about David was that he was a very vulnerable person".

"He was put out into the world, we'd made him this kind of household name... David just wants to disappear, and I can understand that."

And what of the journalist, the scientist and the lawyer? Chisholm went on to put her weight behind the bid to release Algerian refugee Ahmed Zaoui. She recently consulted Geursen about George Gwaze, whose acquittal of the murder of his niece Charlene Makaza will possibly be appealed by the Crown. Gibson arrives at lunch and starts talking about a client, who is "the most innocent guy I've seen since Dougherty". He may, or may not, be joking.

They rage about New Zealand's appellate system. It's too slow, says Gibson. "It's wrong," says Geursen. "Those judges simply look to see whether an error in law has been made; they don't review the evidence."

Gibson calls it "a war of attrition".

"They put us through the mill, didn't they? That's the reality. The whole system is grinding you down."

They know that next week's movie will rekindle interest in a case that had all but slipped from people's consciousness. They laugh at the licence the filmmakers took with their characters. Geursen thinks it's a "good drama". They seem curiously detached from the story of their lives. "Do we look like crusaders?" Gibson is genuinely surprised. "I was acting for an innocent man. It's an irresistible force really."

David Dougherty's ordeal
October 1992: An 11-year-old west Auckland girl is abducted from her home and raped. She claims David Dougherty is her attacker. He is arrested and charged but maintains his innocence and gives DNA samples to prove it.
June 1993: Dougherty is found guilty of rape and abduction. DNA evidence is inconclusive. Dougherty begins a seven-year, nine-month jail term.
October 1993: Dougherty's defence seeks more sophisticated testing of the existing samples from the ESR. Scientist Peta Stringer identifies another man's semen in the complainant's underwear but claims there are also traces of DNA which cannot exclude Dougherty.
October 1994: Dougherty's Court of Appeal bid is thrown out. Scientist Arie Geursen questions the finding and begins investigations with lawyer Murray Gibson.
January 1996: Overseas experts back Geursen, saying tests show unequivocal evidence of another man's semen.
April 1996: Gibson petitions the governor-general to intervene and refer the case back to court. The Sunday Star-Times begins its campaign.
June 1996: The petition succeeds. Dougherty is granted another appeal.
August 1996: The appeal court quashes Dougherty's convictions saying the interpretation of the ESR results by the other three scientists is materially different from Stringer's. Dougherty is released.
January 1997: Melbourne scientist Stephen Gutowski does further testing on the samples and finds a clear profile of someone other than Dougherty in the semen on the girl's clothes and no evidence implicating Dougherty.
April 1997: A High Court jury acquits Dougherty on both charges.
November 1997: Justice Minister Doug Graham rejects Dougherty's bid for compensation, saying his innocence has yet to be proven on the balance of probabilities.
January 1998: Lawyers for Dougherty file for a judicial review of the minister's decision not to compensate.
October 1998: The Star-Times reveals the results of a lengthy police re-investigation into the case, which finds Dougherty's involvement in the crimes is "not an option".
November 1998: Graham rejects the police findings as "the musing of some cop", but refers Dougherty's claim for compensation to QC Stuart Grieve.
August 1999: Grieve asks for further DNA tests on the crime scene samples.
June 2000: The new DNA tests, carried out in Tasmania, show a clear profile of another man.
November 2000: Grieve finds Dougherty has proven his innocence on the balance of probabilities and recommends he receive compensation.
July 2001: The government announces a payout of $868,728 to Dougherty and apologises to him.
May 2003: Nicholas Reekie is found guilty of the 1992 rape and abduction of Dougherty's neighbour.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sunday-star-times/features/1387410
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Thu 2 Dec, 2010 08:40 pm
@hawkeye10,
The really important question would be why she bothers to stay with you...
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 2 Dec, 2010 08:49 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
The really important question would be why she bothers to stay with you...
Ya, you'll hem and haw and divert your eyes and get all pissy, but you will NEVER deal with the subject of consent, that theory that you have built your concept of rape around. You'll rant all day long about how mean men are to women, of what a travesty rape is, but when confronted with somebody who demands a deeper conversation on sexual aggression and submission than platitudes, slogans and posters you have no idea what to say.

You are as they say, an empty shirt.
Arella Mae
 
  2  
Reply Thu 2 Dec, 2010 08:53 pm
Cool thing about ignore. You have the option to click on view and then you can vote down the post!
Ionus
 
  -4  
Reply Thu 2 Dec, 2010 08:55 pm
@Arella Mae,
Quote:
Cool thing about ignore.
Of course it is cool to ignore someone...I bet you do it every time there is a famine in Africa.....I bet you ignore lots of people for lots of reasons.....its cool, isnt it .
Ionus
 
  -4  
Reply Thu 2 Dec, 2010 08:57 pm
Can everyone see the stupidity of this lot ? They vote down a post where an innocent man was convicted. That doesnt fit the libbie lobby agenda. They want to feast on juicy rape stories, and that post had none.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Dec, 2010 09:03 pm
@hawkeye10,
It's not my concept of consent, it's the legal definition of consent in your state.
Quote:
when confronted with somebody who demands a deeper conversation on sexual aggression and submission

"Sexual aggression and submission" doesn't sound like "freely willing consent" does it?
The BDSM world you inhabit is not exactly the norm. Non consensual sex is not a "game".

What do you want to talk about--how much sexual aggression you can use to force or coerce her to submit before you get locked up for rape?

That's not a discussion I care to have.


Arella Mae
 
  2  
Reply Thu 2 Dec, 2010 09:04 pm
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

Quote:
Cool thing about ignore.
Of course it is cool to ignore someone...I bet you do it every time there is a famine in Africa.....I bet you ignore lots of people for lots of reasons.....its cool, isnt it .
I vote you, hawkeye, and bill down for a reason. I don't like the way you think. I think you are all three pretty twisted. I definitely feel sorry that you are that way but even if you did say something nice or compassionate, I doubt I'd believe you meant it.

I don't get along with a few people on A2K but there is only a total of four that I ignore and I do it with good reasons. One of the reasons is because I don't want to get angry at you and blast you because that is not right. You can say what you want about it. I don't care. It doesn't matter to me what you think of me. It matters to me what I think of you.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 2 Dec, 2010 09:12 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
"Sexual aggression and submission" doesn't sound like "freely willing consent" does it?
Of course it does,I freely and willingly consent to be in relationship with all kinds of people, some of whom are domineering and some of whom are passive. Their nature as well as mine work together to add a lot a flavor to the way the relationship works, but rarely do relationships work when both people are of the same temperament.

One thing is for sure, what ever it is that you mean by consent that you will not talk about is almost certainly more of the fantasy world in which you seem to reside.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Thu 2 Dec, 2010 09:16 pm
@Arella Mae,
Birdbrains of a feather flock together. And these three are pretty ugly...
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/05_01/VulturesPA_468x447.jpg

Ignoring them definitely improves the atmosphere--like clearing a stench out of a room.
Ionus
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 2 Dec, 2010 09:55 pm
@Arella Mae,
Quote:
even if you did say something nice or compassionate, I doubt I'd believe you meant it.
The ultimate evil.....of course it is male.....
Quote:
I think you are all three pretty twisted.
What is twisted about disagreeing with you ?
Hawkeye is saying dominance and forceful sex is an integral part of some couples sex lives.
I am saying injustice is being done because of the libby lobby.
I think Bill is saying that the legal aspects need to be rethought.
We are all saying the current rape laws have swung into the ridiculous and the only reason you cant see it is because you will never be accused of rape. Or will you ?
Quote:
One of the reasons is because I don't want to get angry at you and blast you because that is not right.
There is truth in anger. Perhaps you dont want people to see your real reasons.
Ionus
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 2 Dec, 2010 09:58 pm
@firefly,
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Are you saying vultures dont have a right to exist because you THINK they are ugly ? This from someone who's obsession is rape and horror crimes ? I would rather look like a vulture than think like you...I know where the true ugliness lies.

Quote:
Ignoring them definitely improves the atmosphere--like clearing a stench out of a room.
So you can concentrate on the smell of rape.

Seek professional help. You are not well.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 2 Dec, 2010 10:06 pm
Poor poor pitiful women need our protection.....
Quote:
A Queens judge is blasting the city's Probation Department for going easier on teenage girls than boys - even when they commit the same crimes.

Family Court Judge John Hunt accused probation of gender bias for trying to spare all but the most violent girls from prison time and the scarlet letter of the juvenile delinquent.

Hunt analyzed the cases of eight teenagers who had come before him - four boys and four girls - and found that probation routinely recommended tougher treatment for boys.

Take Queens eighth-graders Stephen C. and Jennifer S.

The teens took part in the robbery of a boy who was punched, kicked and choked before having his iPod wrested away. Probation recommended that Stephen be put on supervised probation while Jennifer should have her case eventually dismissed.

Judge Hunt disagreed Monday and ordered both teens put on probation for 18 months.

"The court could find no cogent reason why Jennifer S. should be treated differently than her accomplice, Stephen C.," Hunt wrote.

Hunt blamed a "seemingly bizarre, sterile and largely impersonal system" for the disparate treatment.

In an effort to trim the number of locked-up juveniles, the city partnered with the Vera Institute of Justice in 2003 to develop a computer-generated program that would take the guesswork out of probation officers' recommendations.

A higher score on the Probation Assessment Tool (PAT) means a recommendation that could lead to eventual dismissal of charges. A lower score means probation or lockup, not to mention the juvenile delinquent tag.

Hunt claims PAT routinely rewards girls with 14 extra points for gender alone, while boys get 0.

"The system contains a built-in gender bias in favor of female delinquents," Hunt writes.

Probation officials say the computer tool predicts the likelihood of a juvenile being rearrested based on a study of 763 similar cases.

"It is an assessment tool," said Ryan Dodge, a probation spokesman. "The court can always go against it. It is not set in stone."

Hunt said probation offered up no statistics to suggest boys were more likely to get in trouble again.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2010/12/01/2010-12-01_judged_bashes_probation_department_for_gender_bias_in_favor_of_leniency_for_girl.html
BillRM
 
  -4  
Reply Thu 2 Dec, 2010 10:08 pm
@Arella Mae,
Quote:
Cool thing about ignore. You have the option to click on view and then you can vote down the post!


You do know that it made no sense to used the ignore function in the first place if you are going to still click on those messages in any case?

Are you really that stupid?
0 Replies
 
Oylok
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Dec, 2010 10:12 pm
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:
Arella Mae wrote:
One of the reasons [why I have you on IGNORE] is because I don't want to get angry at you and blast you because that is not right.

There is truth in anger. Perhaps you dont want people to see your real reasons.


The truth that comes out in anger is not something you should share with 100,000 people.
BillRM
 
  -4  
Reply Thu 2 Dec, 2010 10:16 pm
@firefly,
And if she said no the next day or the next year after she had said yes at the time in your world it is still rape if she can come up with some excuse why her yes was invalid.

Perhaps she had her fingers cross behind her back.
0 Replies
 
Oylok
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Dec, 2010 10:28 pm
@Ionus,
Ionus-- So what! So what if girls start off at 14 points? Couldn't there be places on the PAT where boys regularly score higher than girls score--possibly by as much as, say ... 14 points? I don't think Hunt's naive analysis of the PAT proves anything. The question is, what is Hunt's bias?

NY DAILY NEWS wrote:
In an effort to trim the number of locked-up juveniles, the city partnered with the Vera Institute of Justice in 2003 to develop a computer-generated program that would take the guesswork out of probation officers' recommendations.

A higher score on the Probation Assessment Tool (PAT) means a recommendation that could lead to eventual dismissal of charges. A lower score means probation or lockup, not to mention the juvenile delinquent tag.

Hunt claims PAT routinely rewards girls with 14 extra points for gender alone, while boys get 0.

"The system contains a built-in gender bias in favor of female delinquents," Hunt writes.
Ionus
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 3 Dec, 2010 02:00 am
@Oylok,
Quote:
The truth that comes out in anger is not something you should share with 100,000 people.
There are not 100,000 people reading this. Anyway, doesnt anonymity count ? Regardless, the truth should be shared.
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 3 Dec, 2010 02:02 am
@Ionus,
Quote:
Regardless, the truth should be shared.
the truth is worthy of a voice always, more than a few saints (not the religous ones mostly) have been willing to forfeit their lives for truth.
0 Replies
 
 

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