Hey, Can A Woman "Ask To Get Raped"?

@firefly,

Some decades ago I was in a night club. A very attractive petite girl staggered into the chair opposite, leaned across and said "I am going to take you home tonight and **** your arse off". I laughed and said "No. You wont." She looked hurt so I added "You wont be capable of anything tonight if you dont stop drinking". I took her back to her friend and told her what had happened and begged her to take her home straight away. I thought it was a very bad idea for me to take her. Some hours later she was still there, amusing the crowd. The loud laughter made me look for the source. Her drunken tit had fallen out and her friend was trying to squash it back in and not having much success.

There are bad people out there. Her behaviour was placing her in a high risk category. Would her friend have been charged as an accessory to rape for not taking her home ? If we had sex, would I have been guilty of rape if she had buyers remorse ? What about the sheer danger of being that drunk anywhere ? If she drove a car she would be guilty of drink driving. If she has sex the man is guilty of driving her drunk.

1 Reply

@Ionus,

To me the woman as an adult had a right both to get drunk and then to **** some guy arse off if she care to.

No male would have any obligation to act as her protector from her own bad judgment and the one right however she would not have is the right to cry rape the next morning if she have regret over the matter.

She would also have the right in the future to control her drinking if she find she is unhappy at her own behaviors under the influence just like any man would.

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@BillRM,

Quote:

No male would have any obligation to act as her protector from her own bad judgment and the one right however she would not have is the right to cry rape the next morning if she have regret over the matter.

It is like drink driving but blaming the traffic cop who waves you through.....

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@firefly,

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Then why isn't the conviction rate higher on rape crimes that go to trial?

this is now the second time that you have equated a high conviction rate with more justice, which shows that you have confused justice with vengeance.

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So, all jurors want to "subvert justice" too?

some do, but jurors are amateurs. My primary beef is with the professionals, DA's and judges, who don't seem to give a whit about justice. Certainly rape feminists and the legislatures that pass bad sex law as well.

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Among other injuries, the girl had a facial fracture. More than one police officer was fighting back tears on the witness stand when describing the physical condition they found the girl in at the scene. I don't think it was just a case of some "scratches".

so far as I can find their is no mention of blood from any source other than the scratches on her back, so when police report that they found her beaten and bloodied perhaps they exaggerated, and further perhaps they were emotionally compensating for the fact that all during this event there were 4 cops at the dance, ie, out of guilt. Re the face...IDK, there are reports that she was kicked but who knows. The police never found any video or pics even though it was widely reported that some were taken.

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I am sure every last detail will come out at trial. No one has any reason to conceal anything

right, that is why we have laws that state that victims can not be polygraphed, and can not be asked about there own culpability in the evenings events, because we want juries to assume that they are pure, that is is all the guys fault.

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@hawkeye10,

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there are reports that she was kicked but who knows

She wouldnt be the first drunk to fall over...who is to say it wasnt another women kicking her out of disgust ?

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@Ionus,

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She wouldnt be the first drunk to fall over...who is to say it wasnt another women kicking her out of disgust ?

Were there any women at the scene? That would surprise me some, but would also indicate that this at least started out as routine sex fun.

re the kicking....it is possible that what this was a guy putting their foot on her head as it was on the ground or the table ... there are scenes in rough sex porn with exactly that. I would not automatically assume that contact between foot and head was meant as violence, but it could be. My complaint is with police, so called journalists, DA's, the public and Firefly who assume that it was. Lets see some facts and some eye witness testimony before we hang these guys. Some of them are up for life, and many are under aged, we owe them that.

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@hawkeye10,

Quote:

The witnesses failed to report the crime to law enforcement, Gagan said. The victim remained hospitalized in stable condition. Police arrested five suspects and more arrests were expected.

So why didn't anyone come forward?

Criminology and psychology experts say there could be a variety of reasons why the crime wasn't reported. Several pointed to a problematic social phenomenon known as the bystander effect. It's a theory that has played out in lynchings, college riots and white-collar crimes.

Under the bystander effect, experts say that the larger the number of people involved in a situation, the less will get done.

"If you are in a crowd and you look and see that everyone is doing nothing, then doing nothing becomes the norm." explains Drew Carberry, a director at the National Council on Crime Prevention.

Carberry said witnesses can be less likely to report a crime because they reinforce each other with the notion that reporting the crime isn't necessary. Or, he says, witnesses may think another person in the crowd already reported the incident. The responsibility among the group becomes diffused.

"Kids learn at a young age when they observe bullying that they would rather not get involved because there is a power structure," Carberry adds.

The phrase bystander effect was coined in the 1960s after people watched or heard a serial killer stalk and stab a woman in two separate attacks in the Queens neighborhood of New York.

Kitty Genovese struggled with the attacker on the street and in her building. She shrieked for help and was raped, robbed and murdered. When witnesses in the building were questioned by police about why they remained silent and failed to act, one man, according to the 1964 New York Times article that broke the story, answered, "I didn't want to be involved."

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-10-28/justice/california.gang.rape.bystander_1_bystander-crime-prevention-kitty-genovese?_s=PM:CRIME

Conveniently missing is the most obvious answer....that those in the crowd did not think that a crime was being committed because the girl wanted it. This seems most likely because there are reports that the dad called on the girls cell, and one of the participants answered it and gleefully told the dad what a good **** his daughter was. Does a guy do that unless he is sure the girl is getting what she wants??

Also, it is reported that one of the participants told the first responder as he come onto the scene that the whole thing was consensual.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

The kids at the school offered more compelling theory than the "experts"

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Kami is a friend of the girl who was raped. The last time she saw her, they were dancing together at homecoming. "She looked so happy, so pretty" in a sparkly purple dress, dangling earrings and silver heels.

"People are saying it's her fault because she got drunk. But that could have been me. They beat her up and no one did anything to help her."

Explain that, I asked the students I talked to. And their explanations were as good as the experts':

The kids who watched were scared to tell, afraid that "snitching" would make them targets.

Or they thought the girl was a willing participant; that it might be a gang initiation ritual. Guys get "jumped in" to gangs, girls get "sexed in," some said.

Or they didn't intervene because they didn't know the girl and didn't feel compelled to help a stranger. On a big, racially mixed campus like Richmond, you stick with your own and mind your business.

Or, they were simply so shocked their minds went blank.

"Maybe they were just caught in the moment," suggested Olachi, who wore a "Stop Violence Against Women" button pinned to her backpack.

She wasn't at the dance and didn't know the victim, but believes she would have tried to stop the attack. "I'm surprised that no one went and got a security guard," she said. "But maybe people didn't know what to do. Because we never thought this would happen. So we never learned about it."

::

I thought about all those sexual harassment classes and date rape warnings and "no means no" slogans we offer up to our sons and daughters. While they are binge-drinking, hooking up and freak dancing.

How, when confronted with such an obvious violation of humanity, could so many teenagers fall so short and feel so unashamed about it?

The students I talked to after the fact at Richmond High all said they would have intervened. And yet, none of them denounced the kids who didn't.

I sensed they couldn't reconcile the conflict between their ideals and their reality.

And we can't solve all their problems with taller fences, brighter lights and tighter security.

Kami Baker said she was friendly not just with the victim, but with one of the jailed suspects as well.

"He was a genuinely nice guy," she said. She'd tutored him in English class for one semester, two years back. "He was quiet, kind of shy."

The victim knew him too, she said. And when police found her stripped, beaten and violated, the boy was there.

"I just don't get it," Kami said.

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/oct/31/local/me-banks31/2

I had not thought of the gang angle, sounds very reasonable. It would also make her a willing participant.

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@hawkeye10,

That gang rape occured in California. This is the law in California regarding consent.

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According to the California penal code, sexual assault occurs when sexual contact is non-consensual. Consent for sexual contact means that an individual is a willing participant in the act. An individual is unable to give consent if incapacitated by the influence of drugs or alcohol or they suffer from a mental or physical disorder that makes them incapable of offering consent.
http://www.ehow.com/about_6623976_definition-california-law-sexual-assault.html

So someone who is extremely intoxicated would be legally unable to give consent. Therefore, sexual intercourse with that person would be considered rape. Someone who is extremely intoxicated may not be able to offer resistance, and that would also be rape under California law.

That will probably be an issue in the gang rape. They may have a blood alcohol level which was taken when the girl was hospitalized and that would enable them to estimate her blood alcohol level at the time the assaults took place. They may also have witnesses who saw her consuming alcohol and saw the amount she ingested, and one defendant has already reported she was so drunk she didn't know what she was doing. So they can generate evidence from a variety of sources to try to determine whether she was incapacited and therefore incapable of offering consent. When the police found her she was unconscious and her pupils were unresponsive to light, suggesting a comatose state from an extremely high blood alcohol level.

Since the girl was only 15, she was legally unable to give consent simply based on her age.

The sexual assault charges in this case so far are rape and rape by force in concert. So the girl's physical injuries and physical condition will be used to establish force along with eyewitness testimony.

I think if the defense tried to allege that this was consensual "rough" group sex between this girl and a group of males, on school grounds, with onlookers, in the middle of a dance, just before she was supposed to call her father to pick her up, it would never pass the laugh test. The situation is not a credible scenario for consensual sex. It will be interesting to see what sort of defense they present.

Hawkeye, you are so biased against rape victims, I think if they had found this 15 year old shot, stabbed, and with poison in her bloodstream, you'd probably suggest she had commited suicide after consensual rough group sex.

I want to see a fair trial in this case. I suspect that they will produce a great deal of evidence during the trial. This is only a preliminary hearing, they just need to present enough evidence to be able to move forward with a trial.

Consent may be almost a non issue in this case. She was only 15 and she was very intoxicated, so the defendants can't just claim "she wanted it", that it was consensual--there is no valid legal consent in this case. The main prosecution evidence will have to involve tying each of those defendants to the actual rape and physical assaults.
They may have photos, they just haven't said that yet. They may also have witnesses who weren't involved in the actual rape, since a lot of people were watching, and they can identify who raped her. And some of the defendants may rat out the others in order to get a plea deal.

The preliminary hearings are still continuing, so a little more evidence may come out prior to trial.

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@firefly,

Quote:

I think if the defense tried to allege that this was consensual "rough" group sex between this girl and a group of males, on school grounds, with onlookers, in the middle of a dance, it would never pass the laugh test. The situation is not a credible scenario for consensual sex. It will be interesting to see what sort of defense they present

I was talking about what was possibly going on, if it was consensual the state does not care, we know that.

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@firefly,

I have a question for you.
Since you seem to like the laws as they are now, would you be willing to see one change in the law.
The laws and policies that dont allow the press to release the name of a rape victim, but allow the accused persons name to be released.

IMHO, if the acussed persons name can be released, so can the victims.

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@firefly,

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When the police found her she was unconscious and her pupils were unresponsive to light, suggesting a comatose state from an extremely high blood alcohol level

says who? The reports I have seen indicate that she was dazed, not unconscious.

1 Reply

@firefly,

Quote:

So someone who is extremely intoxicated would be legally unable to give consent. Therefore, sexual intercourse with that person would be considered rape. Someone who is extremely intoxicated may not be able to offer resistance, and that would also be rape under California law.

Define extremely intoxicate and be able to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt long after the blood alcohol is back to normal.

The best solution to this “crime” is for women not to get anywhere near that intoxicate in the first place in public and if that is non-PC because it is blaming the poor drunken victim so be it.

Not only will it cut down on claim rapes and the cost of trials it will also save these women livers and keep them from walking in front of cars or worst driving cars or passing out in a cold climate and freezing to death.

By the way you are not all that safe either Firefly as sooner or later they will be going after lesbians in gay bars with these silly laws.

Already there are websites crying that the LGBT community needs to have some of that lovely Federal funding to deal with gay sexual assaults and domestic violence.

Rather remain me of the French revolution where they ended up beheadings each other.

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@mysteryman,

Quote:

Since you seem to like the laws as they are now, would you be willing to see one change in the law.
The laws and policies that dont allow the press to release the name of a rape victim, but allow the accused persons name to be released.

The UK that last I hear is going to protect both parties good names until after a trial.

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@BillRM,

Quote:

Already there are websites crying that the LGBT community needs to have some of that lovely Federal funding to deal with gay sexual assaults and domestic violence.

as an aside: it cracks me up that the tranny pressure groups are rolling out the high tranny suicide rate claiming that this shows that they are subjected to abuse from the majority and need special protection (IE more money). Trannies are confused people, that is part of the definition, HELLO! People who are confused have trouble dealing with life because they are confused, it is not my fault.

They already have a pretty good sized straw into the public sector trough, I dont feel the need to provide a bigger one.

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@mysteryman,

They just went through this in the U.K., mysteryman. They wanted to withhold the accused's name. There was a very big flap about it and they retracted the idea. The main objection to withholding the accused's name was that in many cases the police want other possible victims to come forward if they recognize the name or photo, since rape is an offense that tends to be repeated. Sometimes past victims have been too frightened to come forward until after an arrest has been made. They made a fairly convincing case for releasing the man's name and/or photo. The same arguments for doing that apply in the U.S.

This was in the U.K. news within the past week I think. You can probably find it easily with a Google search.

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@firefly,

Quote:

The main objection to withholding the accused's name was that in many cases the police want other possible victims to come forward if they recognize the name or photo,

In other words if protecting the accused might get in the way of the main project, which is beating on sex criminals, then screw that. Justice comes second.

Protecting alleged victims though, that is a whole nother kettle of fish.

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@firefly,

If the accused's name can be released, so should the victims name.
Case in point, the Duke rape case.
Those young men had their good reputations destroyed, they were kicked out of school, and they were publicly humiliated, because an "unnamed" victim made the accusation.
It was only AFTER the case was pretty much dropped was the accusers name released.
The men were the victims, not her, but she was protected by privacy concers.
If the men arent protected, then neither should the "victim".

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@BillRM,

What is your lunatic obsession with calling me a lesbian? You also said I had been a prison guard. Are you feeding some sick fantasy of yours by imagining I am a lesbian prison guard--no doubt you picture me wearing high boots with a whip in my hands. (Geez, I hope that one doesn't excite Hawkeye too).

Sorry to wreck your fantasy life. I'm not a lesbian, and I've never been a prison guard. And I also have no affiliation with any rape groups or domestic violence groups.

You actually know absolutely nothing about me. And your guesses are so far off the mark they are a riot. Laughing

You are obsessed with me though. You seem unable to make a post without mentioning my name. If you weren't such a creep I might be flattered. Laughing

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@firefly,

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An individual is unable to give consent if incapacitated by the influence of drugs or alcohol

Presumably that law doesnt apply to drink drivers because they are not women. Drink drivers have been arrested with so much alcohol in their system they had to have a doctor called as they were past the point where a person usually dies. Clearly they did not give themselves permission to drive as they were incapacitated. Why were they charged with drink driving ? Or why would that matter in a rape case ? Either or is ridiculous, both or nothing would make sense.

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Hey, Can A Woman "Ask To Get Raped"?

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